Fleury a potential hall of famer?
- Thread starter BurghThang
- Start date
The quote I was responding to said calling the Fleury the "worst playoff goalie of all time" was a tad ridiculous. I contend it's not ridiculous at all.
That one year alone doesn't make him the worst ever, but in much the same way 50 goals in 50 games gets a guy into "the best goal scorer of all time" conversation that pathetically bad showing gets Fleury into the conversation of "worst playoff goalie of all time" without being "ridiculous."
Ragamuffin Gunner
Lost in the Flood
JTG
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- Sep 30, 2007
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Scandale du Jour
JordanStaal#1Fan
This, this and more of this. Fleury has been garbage recently in the playoffs, but he has had playoff success. He is not as bad as people around here would like to think. The negativity on this board is reaching ridiculous levels. Sure, we all are fed up with playoff failures, but we still have a great team, calm down.
Is MAF a HOFer? Probably not at this moment. Can he reach that status? Like many have already said, if he gets 500+ wins and win on more Cup, he'll be a lock. He has always been in the top tier of goalies in the RS (I don't care about goalie stats, even SV% is misleading, some teams *COUGH* Bruins *COUGH* give a lot of perimeter shots and play in buildings in which stat guys overrate the shot totals, that boosts your stats. Systems have a big effect, even on SV%, no wonder all LA or STL goalies have tremendous stats. Put Fleury there and he has comparable stats), if he can maintain his level in the playoffs from now on, I believe he will be HOFer.
bathroomSTAAL
The halcyon days
Ragamuffin Gunner
Lost in the Flood
Til the End of Time
Registered User
the stat i provided (GD) was for a goalies career. not just one season. sample size has nothing to do with it.
at the time of that post fleury ranked as 21.7 goals worse than an average goaltender in the playoffs. since the playoffs ended, that number for fleury dropped to 27.7 goals worse than the average goaltender in the playoffs.
with that change, fleury now ranks below giacomin and sawchuk. only TWO goalies all-time are worse than fleury
Dan Cloutier, 28.6 worse than average (http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/cloutierd.html)
Gerry Desjardins, 34.0 worse than average (http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/desjardins.html)
i dont think fleury is the worst playoff goalie of all-time. he won a cup after all. but hes bad. really bad.
Ragamuffin Gunner
Lost in the Flood
The fact that ~10 horrible games can drop his numbers so much shows the sample bias.
Til the End of Time
Registered User
do you even know what sample bias is? its when the numbers you select for your study dont appropriately represent all the actual data.
the calculation for GD includes all numbers from a goalies playoff career, so there is no sampling involved.
jesus.... sampling bias... what you're saying makes no sense whatsoever. what was sampled here? whats next, are you going to blame fleury's bad playoff numbers on the hawthorne effect?
regardless, any career playoff stat will take a huge hit when you deliver one of the worst goaltending performances of all-time. thats logical and reasonable. besides, if you look at the data, he only had ONE playoff series where he was better than an average playoff goalie for that year. aside from that season, his entire post-season career has been below average.
#66
Registered User
For me its more than that. Most of the time MAF has looked bad I blame the defense. The Pens have been sloppy for a long time defensively.
Look back to that crazy Flyers series from a few years ago. Voracek scores the game winner in game 1 at the back door, with Staal and Letang just looking at him. Then MAF plays the rest of the series worrying about the backdoor. I remember goals going in shortside because he was over playing movements to go backdoor. No goalie can play goal like that. The first thing you learn about defense is to not let the pucks go across the ice or side to side. The Pens kind of just wing it...
He doesn't have a clean slate though. He was pretty bad by his own merit last year. Some of us saw this coming years ago when he was being yo-yoed up and down between WBS and Pittsburgh. He also wasn't given a goalie coach for years. What team does that?
Can he be corrected at this stage? Who knows?? He does look a lot less jittery this season and clean box support is a huge help. To be honest I would rather try and correct him than go with one of the loser goalie that are always brought up in trade rumors. Plus his contract is pretty good.
Ragamuffin Gunner
Lost in the Flood
The "unbiased" stats you posted only include games after the two Cup runs, where he was great to good, to deem him "the worst playoff goalie in hockey".
I don't know what you think a sample bias is, but taking only half of a players stats (that prove your agenda) to argue a point is pretty much the definition.
as always the stats are one part of the equation.
There is a reason human beings vote on who goes into the hall, and not a computer program that just checks the stats.
That said you do have a valid point. But the team around Fleury was also part of the problem for large stretches of that. The Penguins problems in playoffs stem more from a lack of team defense that all the other teams that are successful implement. If your team is more worried about scoring 8 goals a game then making sure the other team doesn't you can be darn certain it will be reflected on the goalies stats.
Still, fleury was abysmal last year, against the flyers the year before I thought he played very well in game 1, and when we lost that in the way we did the series took a turn. He had to continually play the pass and the shot at the same time in that series. He was bad, but the whole team stunk in that series. (see earlier comment about team defense).
The series that *I* think that he really was bad on his own to some degree was against Montreal.
Fleury has elite ability, no question there. If he plays to that ability from here on out, he is in the Hall. If he doesn't he won't be.
UnrealMachine
Registered User
- Goalie "wins" are a less and less respected stat each day. You can't even compare them to the pre-shootout era since goalies are now regularly getting 10+% more wins due to shootout wins that weren't previously available. 42 of Fleury's 277 wins are from the shootout (15.2%).
- In terms of career regular season sv%, Fleury is only average among the peers in his era with .910.
- In terms of career playoff sv%, Fleury is well below the NHL average with .902. It's difficult to find any goalies that have played a comparable number of games in his era that have an equal or lower sv%.
- His shutout rate (~5%) is among the lowest in his era.
In my opinion, you can't overlook his average to (well) below average metrics simply because he plays on a team Crosby/Malkin. Incidentally, there is a higher team win % among the backups over the last 2 seasons than with Fleury (76.9% vs 72.5%). That's how useless it is to "wins" as a measurement for Fleury's success.
- In terms of career regular season sv%, Fleury is only average among the peers in his era with .910.
- In terms of career playoff sv%, Fleury is well below the NHL average with .902. It's difficult to find any goalies that have played a comparable number of games in his era that have an equal or lower sv%.
- His shutout rate (~5%) is among the lowest in his era.
In my opinion, you can't overlook his average to (well) below average metrics simply because he plays on a team Crosby/Malkin. Incidentally, there is a higher team win % among the backups over the last 2 seasons than with Fleury (76.9% vs 72.5%). That's how useless it is to "wins" as a measurement for Fleury's success.
Those two are pretty damning to his HOF chances.
I think we can all agree that if MAF were to get in, it would be due to career compiling and not peak.
Ogrezilla
Nerf Herder
LetangInTheSO
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- Oct 17, 2008
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I'm a Fleury supporter but I concede that he belongs absolutely nowhere near the HHoF. Has Fleury ever been considered a top-3 active goalie during his career? Top 5? Top 10? Frankly, I don't even think Fleury would qualify for the Hall of Really Good.
As others have said, MAF's win numbers need to be viewed in context, and none of his other cumulative stats are much to write home about when placed in context amongst his peers. Another Stanley Cup would help his case, but even then I don't think there's even an arguable case to be made for him to be in the HHoF.
As others have said, MAF's win numbers need to be viewed in context, and none of his other cumulative stats are much to write home about when placed in context amongst his peers. Another Stanley Cup would help his case, but even then I don't think there's even an arguable case to be made for him to be in the HHoF.
Darth Vitale
Dark Matter
I guess it wouldn't be the first time a player made the Hall based on regular season success and not much else, but barring another Cup where he is strong throughout the playoffs, it wouldn't sit right with me. He is not even remotely in the same league as Brodeur or Roy, or even Lundqvist. I don't care what his W totals end up as... those are the kind of guys who deserve it. Fleury would get in on the strength of regular season wins alone as it stands now. Not a fan of voting guys in based on one stat.
I don't have a problem crediting him with SO wins because he alone has to make the plays to get the win, so those he earns... but there's more to a goalie than just wins. Especially with the talent he'll have around him his entire career. Can you imagine what his final numbers would've been if Lundqvist had come here and not Fleury? Even with the Grind Patrol, you have to think we've got at least one additional deep Cup run in the last 2 or 3 years, maybe a win.
I don't have a problem crediting him with SO wins because he alone has to make the plays to get the win, so those he earns... but there's more to a goalie than just wins. Especially with the talent he'll have around him his entire career. Can you imagine what his final numbers would've been if Lundqvist had come here and not Fleury? Even with the Grind Patrol, you have to think we've got at least one additional deep Cup run in the last 2 or 3 years, maybe a win.
radapex
Registered User
The only reason I'd disagree with that is because I'm not sure anyone could've provided better goaltending than Vokoun did behind a VERY strong lineup last year and they still got embarrassed.
They certainly haven't been getting goaltending over the years, but we're also seeing a lot of struggling defensively (ex: 2012 vs Flyers) and offensive stars getting shut down completely (ex: 2010 vs Montreal, 2013 vs Boston). I'm willing to forgive 2011 vs Tampa because there were such big pieces missing that a 1-0 loss in game 7 is pretty hard to complain about.
Basically, goaltending has been just one of several problems plaguing the Pens come playoffs.
Greeneye
Registered User
No way is he a hof unless he really picks up his play especially in the playoffs. Hof of good guys maybe.
