Confirmed with Link: Flames sign Lance Bouma to 3-year, $2.2M AAV contract

[Anglesmith]

What I meant is pretty dang simple. Flames overpaid for FAs last year, yes, but we had to 1) reach the cap floor, 2) calgary wasn't a place the best FAs wanted to go to and 3) like anyone else, I doubt Treliving seriously thought we were a playoff team. It's also worth noting the Raymond deal was seen as good when it was done and he was playing a whole better before the injury, not that it excuses his overall play. The run last year sort of threw a monkey wrench into the clockworks.

Bouma is not as overpaid as Engelland & co. but it comes off as a much worse decision given the circumstances.

I think that point is kind of sketchy. We can talk all we want about mitigating factors, but at the end of the day, if the team was thinking about the future and keeping Hudler around, then they would have signed one- or two-year deals to reach the floor and left room to do so.

Signing Bouma barely qualifies as making a decision. Maybe you feel they should've traded him instead, but he's just as able to be traded now as he was before they put pen to paper.

 

[Lunatik]

Confirmed with link: Randy Sportak reads 100TG's posts.

Can you blame him?

probably reads posts on CP as reading there is how I got the Rich Winter info

 

[herashak]

guessed 3yr/6m lets just hope he isn't a 4th liner and his last season is more the norm. 3 years gives a lot of time to those heart and soul guys in the system to develop if bouma gets too pricy by the end of it.

 

[Dertell]

I think that point is kind of sketchy. We can talk all we want about mitigating factors, but at the end of the day, if the team was thinking about the future and keeping Hudler around, then they would have signed one- or two-year deals to reach the floor and left room to do so.

Signing Bouma barely qualifies as making a decision. Maybe you feel they should've traded him instead, but he's just as able to be traded now as he was before they put pen to paper.

You completely forgot Frolik wasn't going to come here and I'm not sure about Hamilton if we ended up in the basement with another top 5 pick, so more than enough room for Hudler.

It's not about trading him, it's about the contract itself. Either you give him that money or even more for a single year or you drop the AAV. 2.5M (what he asked for)/ 1yr deal would've been way better, letting us see if he's not Prust 2.0 too.

Well, why would we want to keep Hudler? He will be a 32 year old looking to cash in hard for the last time coming off of career years. I would be all for keeping him at a short-term or a longterm/discounted AAV, but that is highly unlikely. He will want money and term. Frolik may of been his replacement.

Because 1st liners are kinda important? Folks said the same about Justin William. He took 3.25m / 2yrs.

 

[Anglesmith]

You completely forgot Frolik wasn't going to come here and I'm not sure about Hamilton if we ended up in the basement with another top 5 pick, so more than enough room for Hudler.

It's not about trading him, it's about the contract itself. Either you give him that money or even more for a single year or you drop the AAV. 2.5M (what he asked for)/ 1yr deal would've been way better.

I'm glad that you brought up those other contracts. Is Frolik's deal not a big factor when it comes to having space for Hudler? Or Hamilton's?

At the end of the day, all people are arguing is that it makes no sense to bring Hudler into the discussion with regards to Hudler, any moreso than it would with other contracts signed recently. The fact that you don't like Bouma's contract is its own stand-alone point, but it has equally as much to do with Hudler as anyone else's contract.

 

[Dertell]

I'm glad that you brought up those other contracts. Is Frolik's deal not a big factor when it comes to having space for Hudler? Or Hamilton's?

Neither were overpaid. I don't mind GMs spending 10M$ on players worth that money. As long as you build the best possible team with the finite resources available.

At the end of the day, all people are arguing is that it makes no sense to bring Hudler into the discussion with regards to Hudler, any moreso than it would with other contracts signed recently. The fact that you don't like Bouma's contract is its own stand-alone point, but it has equally as much to do with Hudler as anyone else's contract.

I get it, it's not really awful in itself but they should, if they can't get out of the bad deals they already have, not add more of them. The Flyers are a good example of this going extremely wrong. I recall folks using similar arguments about MacDonald last year except some also mentioned several other teams were stupid enough to give him a similar contract. Every teams WILL end up overpaying, avoid doing it too often. Engelland's and Raymond's deal have worse consequences but they were not dumber decisions.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Check out this tidbit of info.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

Check out this tidbit of info.

But... but... possession numbers!

 

[Dertell]

Check out this tidbit of info.

Bunch of stats that don't matter and the two important ones, in small chunk. Also Troy Brouwer ain't nice company at all.

 

[Volica]

Proud I was able to call that 2.2 for Bouma.

It's not a bad contract at all, he's a good third liner in this league.

 

[Mobiandi]

Check out this tidbit of info.

The more specific the stats, the less impressive they are

 

[Ace Rimmer]

@drDT if $500k (or however much $$ you feel Bouma is overpaid) if that amount is going to make or break the Flames , they have much bigger problems.

 

[Dertell]

@drDT if $500k (or however much $$ you feel Bouma is overpaid) if that amount is going to make or break the Flames , they have much bigger problems.

Not sure you pay attention to the other teams' cap management closely but you would notice how teams having less than 300k of cap space by the start is extremely frequent and no, I'm not referring to Chicago-like situations.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

Not sure you pay attention to the other teams' cap management closely but you would notice how teams having less than 300k of cap space by the start is extremely frequent and no, I'm not referring to Chicago-like situations.

No I get that, but the solution isn't found in Bouma's contract negotiations. It's found in the likes of Raymond, Smid, and Engelland's contracts. $9+ million committed to a bottom six forward / two bottom pairing defensemen needs to be remedied, and I'm certain it will be one way or the other before the start of next season.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Not sure you pay attention to the other teams' cap management closely but you would notice how teams having less than 300k of cap space by the start is extremely frequent and no, I'm not referring to Chicago-like situations.

I was hoping he would have got between 1.7-9. If your worried about Bouma being "arguably" overpaid by 300-500k, well I really have to question what your basing your opinions off of.

At worst, if Bouma got 5 points next season, he will still be our best PK'er, our best shot blocker and our most physical forward, all those alone warrant his contract. You dismiss these stats, but Hartley (reigning coach of the year) places a tremendous value on these areas, if the Flames did not value those areas themselves, Bouma would not have been signed to the term or money that he was. I can also tell you that Bouma is one of the most important guys in the dressing room, Stajan was recently quoted as saying when Bouma scores, it feels like you score, just to give you some idea of his importance to his teammates.

Raymond, Jones, Wideman, Engelland's, Smid, and unfortunately even Stajan's contracts are far more worrisome than Bouma's new one. It's very easy to argue Bouma will earn every dollar that he's paid, those mentioned above is not so easy.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

He got Bouma a 3-year deal for $6.6M, he's a great agent.

Not bad for a guy who's reasonabe bet to go back to scoring a handful of goals a year.

He is a great agent, but he's a real dillhole from a fan or GM's point of view.

 

[SmellOfVictory]

No I get that, but the solution isn't found in Bouma's contract negotiations. It's found in the likes of Raymond, Smid, and Engelland's contracts. $9+ million committed to a bottom six forward / two bottom pairing defensemen needs to be remedied, and I'm certain it will be one way or the other before the start of next season.

I'd argue that it's found everywhere. The contracts you mentioned are the obvious albatrosses, but if you can save 200-300k per 4th line player on your team, you suddenly have an extra half a mil to a mil to play with that you can use to pay for a better top 9 forward (say, a 2nd liner who is worth 5 mil instead of 4 mil), who's going to play a lot more minutes than anyone on the 4th line.

 

[Anglesmith]

I'd argue that it's found everywhere. The contracts you mentioned are the obvious albatrosses, but if you can save 200-300k per 4th line player on your team, you suddenly have an extra half a mil to a mil to play with that you can use to pay for a better top 9 forward (say, a 2nd liner who is worth 5 mil instead of 4 mil), who's going to play a lot more minutes than anyone on the 4th line.

Which is exactly why we didn't pay him the $2.5M he was asking for.

 

[Johnny GODreau]

Bout 200k too much IMO. But I aint mad.

 

[herashak]

Bout 200k too much IMO. But I aint mad.

Coulda said "butt I aint stressin" *kendrick tone"

Edit : but the flames long term future success depends them finding and producing these cheap good heart and soul players and keeping them around til they start to get to ufa. Having a bouma and ferland last year with potentially agostino and hathaway this year being brought in through trade and free angency. With arnold, smith, even elson comimg next its looking good.

 

[Tofveve]

I like it.

 

[Dertell]

I was hoping he would have got between 1.7-9. If your worried about Bouma being "arguably" overpaid by 300-500k, well I really have to question what your basing your opinions off of.

At worst, if Bouma got 5 points next season, he will still be our best PK'er, our best shot blocker and our most physical forward, all those alone warrant his contract. You dismiss these stats, but Hartley (reigning coach of the year) places a tremendous value on these areas, if the Flames did not value those areas themselves, Bouma would not have been signed to the term or money that he was. I can also tell you that Bouma is one of the most important guys in the dressing room, Stajan was recently quoted as saying when Bouma scores, it feels like you score, just to give you some idea of his importance to his teammates.

Raymond, Jones, Wideman, Engelland's, Smid, and unfortunately even Stajan's contracts are far more worrisome than Bouma's new one. It's very easy to argue Bouma will earn every dollar that he's paid, those mentioned above is not so easy.

He is not our best PKer; doesn't mean you're handed a buttload of time for something you're good at it. And not saying Stajan doesn't believe that but what players say to the media should be taken with a grain of salt plus they usually say they don't care about scoring in general as long as the team win (which is BS, they need individual stats to have a bigger contract).

Patrick Roy and Paul MacLean won the Jack Adam the two years before. Even bozos like Ted Nolan and Tortorella won the Jack Adam. "Coach of the year" means "coach with the most surprising team of the year", no more no less. I have zero problem questioning Hartley's decisions, given the amount of clumsy decisions he made: making Brodie play with Engelland for the first 40-50 minutes of games.... then Brodie plays with Schlemko or Diaz for the rest then repeat for the last 25 games, giving Bouma so much PK time, punting Bennett to keep Colborne in the top 6 when Bouma was back, Bollig and Raymond not being healthy scratched more often, Granlund's silly deployment even though he was clearly way over his head, Potter over Wotherspoon, Setoguchi over Jooris at the start of the season. I could go on.

People here pull an appeal to authority only when it follows a narrative: Hartley and Treliving obviously liking Backlund a bunch (2nd line and tough minutes right when he's back from injury, 3-years extension right when the off-season started) doesn't stop them from hating his guts and Hartley's deployment of Byron last season plus Treliving giving him a QO indicate there's quite some discrepancies between what they and the fans see in him.

No I get that, but the solution isn't found in Bouma's contract negotiations. It's found in the likes of Raymond, Smid, and Engelland's contracts. $9+ million committed to a bottom six forward / two bottom pairing defensemen needs to be remedied, and I'm certain it will be one way or the other before the start of next season.

...how do you trade any of them? That's impossible. That's why the extra gold was found in Bouma's negotiations (or anywhere else you can really change the cap really).

Which is exactly why we didn't pay him the $2.5M he was asking for.

Said AAV could've saved some money long-term with a 1-yr term. Not giving him 2.5 M$ / 3 yr is like praising the Bruins for signing Belesky for less than the 5M$ he asked for.

 

[Anglesmith]

I realized it was silly to suppress having one thread for the contracts of three guys, so I separated out the Bouma thread again.

People here pull an appeal to authority only when it follows a narrative: Hartley and Treliving obviously liking Backlund a bunch (2nd line and tough minutes right when he's back from injury, 3-years extension right when the off-season started) doesn't stop them from hating his guts and Hartley's deployment of Byron last season plus Treliving giving him a QO indicate there's quite some discrepancies between what they and the fans see in him.

First of all, I am not sure what the bolded means. Could you clarify? I assume it's a typo or something.

Secondly, a certain portion of fans see one thing with Byron (comedy, usually) while another portion sees a guy who is our best PKer by just about every metric over the last three years (shot suppression, ratio of SHG to PPG while he's on the ice), and whose ability to finish last year was unsustainably bad while he seemed to create more chances than most players in our lineup per 60 minutes. Let's not lump all fan opinion together. An appeal to majority is no better than an appeal to authority.

I like Bouma, though. To be honest, how I view this contract isn't based on thinking he'll repeat his numbers, go down or even go up. I don't care as long as he plays the way he does, because I honestly think a guy like him makes his teammates play better.

...how do you trade any of them? That's impossible. That's why the extra gold was found in Bouma's negotiations (or anywhere else you can really change the cap really).
Said AAV could've saved some money long-term with a 1-yr term. Not giving him 2.5 M$ / 3 yr is like praising the Bruins for signing Belesky for less than the 5M$ he asked for.

What this tells us is that if management wants to keep Hudler around, they don't want to do it if it means losing Bouma in the process. So they'll look at any other option to cut salary, but they are not looking at Bouma as expendable.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

...how do you trade any of them? That's impossible. That's why the extra gold was found in Bouma's negotiations (or anywhere else you can really change the cap really).

There are basically four options with each of them:

1. Keep them, deal with the cap consequences. Arguably, this may be problematic for all of them (add Stajan to my original list as well). That said, a veteran presence is important, so there needs to be a balance between retaining veterans and freeing up cap space.

2. Trade them. This is difficult, although not impossible as we saw with Clarkson. Whether it's a salary retained trade, a trade that includes a draft pick sweetener for taking on salary (ie: Raymond and a 3rd for a 7th), or taking another bad (but shorter) contract in return.

3. Bury them in the minors. Not ideal, but does clear up $900k in cap space. It's possible someone is snagged off waivers during this process as well.

4. In the case of Smid, long term injury reserve. Does cause minor problems in the off-season (still allowed to go over cap by 10%) but during the season not as much.

5. Buy them out. Haven't done the math, but it does keep cap on the books for longer.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

He is not our best PKer; doesn't mean you're handed a buttload of time for something you're good at it. And not saying Stajan doesn't believe that but what players say to the media should be taken with a grain of salt plus they usually say they don't care about scoring in general as long as the team win (which is BS, they need individual stats to have a bigger contract).

Patrick Roy and Paul MacLean won the Jack Adam the two years before. Even bozos like Ted Nolan and Tortorella won the Jack Adam. "Coach of the year" means "coach with the most surprising team of the year", no more no less. I have zero problem questioning Hartley's decisions, given the amount of clumsy decisions he made: making Brodie play with Engelland for the first 40-50 minutes of games.... then Brodie plays with Schlemko or Diaz for the rest then repeat for the last 25 games, giving Bouma so much PK time, punting Bennett to keep Colborne in the top 6 when Bouma was back, Bollig and Raymond not being healthy scratched more often, Granlund's silly deployment even though he was clearly way over his head, Potter over Wotherspoon, Setoguchi over Jooris at the start of the season. I could go on.

People here pull an appeal to authority only when it follows a narrative: Hartley and Treliving obviously liking Backlund a bunch (2nd line and tough minutes right when he's back from injury, 3-years extension right when the off-season started) doesn't stop them from hating his guts and Hartley's deployment of Byron last season plus Treliving giving him a QO indicate there's quite some discrepancies between what they and the fans see in him.

Thanks for your reply, I got what I needed for this topic and for all your future posts. Cheers!