GDT: Flames @ Jets 6pm MT

[DCDM]

I would scratch Lucic tomorrow. Insert Simon where Leivo was. Move Leivo down to the third or fourth line. Everything else seemed fine honestly, they just need to keep their foot on the gas.

 

[Kranix]

Glad Johnny got his first goal out of the way.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I think its your blatant bias towards Gaudreau that bothers me the most. Hes the most skilled forward on either team, imo, and until he quits playing like a 15 year old in the NHL, it won't matter who he's with. He's the guy that player should be put with to get going, not the other way around. Continually attacking an, all be it lesser player, that should be more than sufficient to complement a player of his stature and has in the past, is counter productive.

Yeah, but even the best players in the world need to have support. Gaudreau has been stapled to Monahan for pretty much the entirety of his career. Nothing against Sean, but being paired with the same player, who is objectively not on your level, and requires a lot of help in terms of carrying the play, takes its toll. You can see how his frustration has built up over the years. Monahan is a fine player but you want your superstars to have someone they can call their peer who can keep up with the elite pace and skill (or at least close to it). Remember how Johnny looked back at the world cup alongside guys like Mackinnon?

You can't ask your star players to do it alone for such an extended period of time, especially when it continues to result in failure that is ultimately blamed on said star player.

Crosby and Malkin
Kane and Toews
Getzlaf and Perry
Henrik and Daniel
Datsyuk and Zetterberg
Kucherov and Point/Stamkos
Ovechkin and Backstrom
McDavid and Draisaitl
Bergeron and Marchand

Then you look at stars like Eichel, Gaudreau, Tavares in NY, Panarin in CLB, Hall in NJ who really don't have that counterpart. And you quickly see how frustrated they become over time.

I just don't know what the coaching staff expects Gaudreau to do with Monahan and Leivo as his linemates. It's been thoroughly demonstrated over the last 2 calendar years that Gaudreau and Monahan no longer work as a pair. I'm sure he'll still find a way to create some offense, but you want to set your best players up for success, and it's clear they have no intention of doing that. When your elite players are successful, typically your team will be as well.

My apologies, tough loss. There are far worse posters than you around here.

No worries my friend

 

[Fig]

I have an opinion:

Good NHL lines require footspeed.

Speed down the middle, and speed down at least one wing.

You can have the other winger be slow if they're going to be the trailer, but that's the extent of it.

As for size? Yes, you need some, because you need a winger who can win a board battle and hit the centre or opposite winger with an outlet pass.

So let's look at our effective top line:

Tkachuk - Lindholm - Dube

Why does this work?

You have Tkachuk who can win a board battle and hit Lindholm or Dube with the breakout pass.
You have Dube who can push play forward
You have Lindholm who can keep up with the play, even though he typically doesn't drive play.

Now let's look at our arguable best line in last year's playoffs

Lucic - Bennett - Dube

You have Lucic who can win a board battle and hit Bennett or Dube with the breakout pass. Though he is prone to strange gaffes.
You have Dube who can push play forward
You have Bennett who can keep up with and drive the play.

That's why this line worked.

Now let's look at the other three lines Geoff Ward somehow thought would work tonight:

Gaudreau - Monahan - Leivo

You have Monahan who can win a board battle and hit Gaudreau with the breakout pass. However, this does not happen, because as a centre, he is not positionally supposed to be engaging in too many battles along the boards. He's utterly wasted.
You have Gaudreau who can push play forward
You have Leivo who... is neither a centre nor speedy. And didn't even look coordinated today.

Mangiapane - Backlund - Ryan

You have Ryan who cannot win a board battle and cannot hit Backlund or Mangiapane with the breakout pass.
You have Mangiapane who can push play forward
You have Backlund who can keep up with and drive the play.

Nordstrom - Bennett - Lucic

You have Lucic who can win a board battle and hit Bennett or Dube with the breakout pass. Though he is prone to strange gaffes.
You have Nordstrom who cannot push play forward, and generally was the worst player among the 24 skaters who were on the ice today.
You have Bennett who can keep up with and drive the play.

It just baffles me that our coach thought any of these three lines were a good idea.

At least Ward tries a ton of things to confirm they don't work. That's better than a bunch of previous coaches that try nothing new when the lines are confirmed not to work or on a cold streak.

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

At least Ward tries a ton of things to confirm they don't work. That's better than a bunch of previous coaches that try nothing new when the lines are confirmed not to work or on a cold streak.

You're right, trying things is better than not trying things.

Yet Gaudreau and Monahan are still glued together, Lucic is still a staple on the PP, and Bennett is still grossly underutilized in every situation.

It's just lipstick on the same pig.

 

[Fig]

You're right, trying things is better than not trying things.

Yet Gaudreau and Monahan are still glued together, Lucic is still a staple on the PP, and Bennett is still grossly underutilized in every situation.

It's just lipstick on the same pig.

You can't try everything new in one go. At least you got winger Monahan last season in the ploffs. That's a start, right?

There's even hope of a Sam Bennett being Gaudreau's centre. Patience my man. Your opinions were scoffed at for years because we never saw evidence of the coaches even considering it. Ward burst in last season and gave a crap ton of credence to your opinions in a span of a few months and showed a few flashes in the pan of legitimacy your ideas.

It'll happen sooner or later. Go get a truck load of crow ready.

 

[Sparky93]

Yeah, but even the best players in the world need to have support. Gaudreau has been stapled to Monahan for pretty much the entirety of his career. Nothing against Sean, but being paired with the same player, who is objectively not on your level, and requires a lot of help in terms of carrying the play, takes its toll. You can see how his frustration has built up over the years. Monahan is a fine player but you want your superstars to have someone they can call their peer who can keep up with the elite pace and skill (or at least close to it). Remember how Johnny looked back at the world cup alongside guys like Mackinnon?

You can't ask your star players to do it alone for such an extended period of time, especially when it continues to result in failure that is ultimately blamed on said star player.

Crosby and Malkin
Kane and Toews
Getzlaf and Perry
Henrik and Daniel
Datsyuk and Zetterberg
Kucherov and Point/Stamkos
Ovechkin and Backstrom
McDavid and Draisaitl
Bergeron and Marchand

Then you look at stars like Eichel, Gaudreau, Tavares in NY, Panarin in CLB, Hall in NJ who really don't have that counterpart. And you quickly see how frustrated they become over time.

I just don't know what the coaching staff expects Gaudreau to do with Monahan and Leivo as his linemates. It's been thoroughly demonstrated over the last 2 calendar years that Gaudreau and Monahan no longer work as a pair. I'm sure he'll still find a way to create some offense, but you want to set your best players up for success, and it's clear they have no intention of doing that. When your elite players are successful, typically your team will be as well.


No worries my friend

I mean over the last two calendar years, he didn't just play with Monahan, he played on a line with Monahan and Lindholm. If he needs better than that, in order to produce, then he's probably not the star, that some of us think he is. The guys you listed, lacking support, still lead their teams in scoring, with far lesser player and were undeniably the best on their teams. I don't think we can say the same for Johnny, at least recently, without room for realistic debate. I believe Johnny's biggest problem, is Johnny and his paralyzing fear of contact. He literally will only play on less than 2/3rds of the ice, resulting in very one dimensional and dare I say, predictable play. Its very similar to the struggles that Europeans have when coming to the smaller ice surfaces in NA, except he's doing it to himself.
It literally does not matter who he plays with, he will always lead the rush because he will not dip inside our blueline very often. Of course he enters the offensive zone by himself....he has a half an ice length head start. Defensemen just take away the middle of the ice because they know he's stopping above the hash marks and looking cross seam for trailers.
Until he changes the way he plays and is willing to do the little things, that help his team win, he'll struggle to find the success, that a player of his caliber should have.

 

[2023FriendshipTour]

This team will go as Monahan and Johnny do. We have the depth to be competitive if those two can play like first liners again, but I don't have much faith at this point, which is evident in the way the two are playing.. the fancy stats test definitely matches the eye test.

It's only game one and we aren't in some heavy grinding division, so here's hoping they find a way to take advantage of the piss poor D in our division. They don't need to be McDrai good to carry us, but they need to be solid and chipping in 5v5 as we have two other lines that will be chipping in at a decent clip.

 

[Mazatt]

Flames can have two good lines at the very least if they put Bennett with Backlund and Mangiapane.

One thing that I'd be interested to see is Mangiapane OR Bennett in Leivo's spot since they preformed better, but Mangiapane was also kind of cold against Winnipeg so maybe they just keep letting things marinate and have guys develop chemistry with new linesmates

 

[Mobiandi]

Stating the obvious but that Lucic contract is painful. He really has no business on the PP

 

[DCDM]

Just something that came up on the radio this morning... Leivo hadn't played in an NHL game since December 2019. Due to injuries and then covid and everything... I'm not prepared to give him so much leash especially on the second line but given that's the case, I don't think we should all be jumping down his throat. Keep him in the lineup IMO, let him get back up to speed, then see how he slots in throughout the lineup.

 

[Rubi]

I'm just so so disappointed about how the flames played for 2/3rds of last night's game. At the end of the 1st I was pumped! I said that this is the Flames team that I love and know they are capable of playing. ... then came the 2nd, 3rd, and OT periods.. sigh.

The SOG almost says it all. At the end of the 1st it was 13 Flames and 6 Jets and we were up 3-1. Then came the next 41 minutes.... Flames 13 vs Jets 28. What a disaster. What a failure. What a disappointment. And I'm not just looking at SOG. I'm also looking at HDC for and against. I'm looking a CF%. I'm looking at xGF%. I'm just looking.

I just hope every Flames player is taking a good hard and long look at themselves in the mirror today. I hope garbage cans and sticks were thrown in the dressing room last night. This team is just way to comfortable with losing and under achievement.

... sigh...

 

[BudRobinson53]

I'm ok. We never win a season opener anyway, so getting a point out of it is good.

Normally, we take it to most teams 5v5 and our powerplay kills us. We need to get back to better 5v5 play.

The long term concern is our PP. We need to get this figured out, soon.

 

[DFF]

Stating the obvious but that Lucic contract is painful. He really has no business on the PP

Probably only one guy in the universe would give him that much ice time and PP time.

Just happen that guy is the head coach of the Flames. Live with it.

 

[Fig]

To be fair, I saw quite a bit more physical contact from Gaudreau last night. No bone shattering hits or anything like that from him, but him rubbing out (te he) a few opposition players from the play did happen a few times...

The other part that I noticed was that while the score didn't really reflect it, I felt like the second and third was more even than many of you feel. One goal came off of a 3x flub in front of our net. The other came off of a 3 on 5 penalty. I'm going to go with that much of the play in the 2nd and 3rd was relatively equal against the Jets who are also shaking off a ton of dust. I mean, it's the opening game curse. The fact we got a point out of it is pretty damn huge.

Do you know what else I noticed? Players falling all over the damn place like a bunch of Phaneufs. It was accidentally predicted on the first page.

I've never seen so many NHL players completely blow tires like this before. Gaudreau alone blew a tire in spectacular fashion at lest 2-3 times. I don't know if this is the players being really freaking rusty or if the ice was bad. I saw some Jets players fall too, but the Flames players seemed to go flying far more often.

 

[Mobiandi]

The other part that I noticed was that while the score didn't really reflect it, I felt like the second and third was more even than many of you feel. One goal came off of a 3x flub in front of our net. The other came off of a 3 on 5 penalty. I'm going to go with that much of the play in the 2nd and 3rd was relatively equal against the Jets who are also shaking off a ton of dust. I mean, it's the opening game curse. The fact we got a point out of it is pretty damn huge.

I agree. Markstrom wasn't forced into making any difficult saves other than the goals and that weird adventure he went on in the 3rd. This was more of a situation where we killed our own momentum rather than the Jets doing anything impressive.

 

[JPeeper]

A stick lift that ends up with the guy scoring.. right.

Gaudreau made the mistake, but that doesn't make my statement any less true.

The mental gymnastics you do to find ways to bitch about Monahan is astounding. It's embarrassing.

 

[Mazatt]

The mental gymnastics you do to find ways to bitch about Monahan is astounding. It's embarrassing.

Monahan made a great hustle play with speed to get back and make the defensive stop. It's not his fault Laine was able to rip one top shelf from in his feet lmao. The things people do to hate on Monahan...

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I mean over the last two calendar years, he didn't just play with Monahan, he played on a line with Monahan and Lindholm. If he needs better than that, in order to produce, then he's probably not the star, that some of us think he is. The guys you listed, lacking support, still lead their teams in scoring, with far lesser player and were undeniably the best on their teams. I don't think we can say the same for Johnny, at least recently, without room for realistic debate. I believe Johnny's biggest problem, is Johnny and his paralyzing fear of contact.

Neither Monahan nor Lindholm are play driving star players in this league. Lindholm's career high in points was 45 before coming to Calgary.

He literally will only play on less than 2/3rds of the ice, resulting in very one dimensional and dare I say, predictable play. Its very similar to the struggles that Europeans have when coming to the smaller ice surfaces in NA, except he's doing it to himself.
It literally does not matter who he plays with, he will always lead the rush because he will not dip inside our blueline very often. Of course he enters the offensive zone by himself....he has a half an ice length head start.

This is completely false - dude comes low all the time to help Monahan and the D, and will often start the breakout from there. Just last night he made a really nice play to break up a chance right in front of the net and then made a nifty pass to the open man to control the breakout.

Will he fly the zone if he sees an opportunity for a break? Yeah, like most elite offensive players. But he comes low very often to defend.

Defensemen just take away the middle of the ice because they know he's stopping above the hash marks and looking cross seam for trailers.
Until he changes the way he plays and is willing to do the little things, that help his team win, he'll struggle to find the success, that a player of his caliber should have.

The biggest difference I've seen is the way teams limit his time and space at the blue line. They are much more comfortable giving Monahan time and space to carry the puck in the neutral zone than they were in prior years - I think the book is out a bit that he's not that dangerous of a puck carrier - so they are able to increase their focus on Gaudreau. They know he's going to have to be the one carrying the puck all over the ice. In his 6+ year NHL career, he's never had a capable good puck carrier on his line for any sustained period of time. And contrary to popular belief, his offensive game is actually more dangerous when he doesn't have the puck, as he literally has some of the best instincts around the net the game has seen.

This is an example of what I am talking about. Watch how quickly he realizes that he needs to get to the other side of the net:



Here's another example - look at how he realizes that the puck is going to end up in the slot a split second before Comeau does. That difference in anticipation resulted in a goal:



One last example - look at how quickly he anticipates the passing lane is going to open up, and how urgently he gets there for the goal:



Johnny is a very good puck carrier, but he's too small to be dominant with that attribute. He needs to be deployed like a receiver - let him get lost in coverage and find those soft spots around the net where he can pounce. In his current role as the primary mail carrier, he's not able to do this. I would wager a significant amount of money that if he were to get some consistent ice time with a better puck carrying center, his production would sky rocket.

 

[TheHudlinator]

If we aren't going to let kylington play defense can we scratch Lucic and let him try playing wing? At the very least he can skate at an nhl level which Lucic can't.

 

[DFF]

If we aren't going to let kylington play defense can we scratch Lucic and let him try playing wing? At the very least he can skate at an nhl level which Lucic can't.

You have to fire Ward first.

He has a thing for Lucic

I honestly believe if you fire Ward, Lucic would quit. That alone is worth it.

 

[Fig]

You have to fire Ward first.

He has a thing for Lucic

I honestly believe if you fire Ward, Lucic would quit. That alone is worth it.

 

[lightstorm]

Bennett is back with Lucic and Nordstrom at the practice and Ryan is on Backlund's wing again.

Ward is such a Mickey Mouse coach, so sick of that guy.

 

[JPeeper]

Bennett is back with Lucic and Nordstrom at the practice and Ryan is on Backlund's wing again.

Ward is such a Mickey Mouse coach, so sick of that guy.

Even people who aren't up Bennett's ass can see he should be on the 3rd line and not centering his own (moreso because they give him horrible wingers).

Ryan is a better center than winger, Bennett is better when he plays with actual talent, so obviously they play Ryan on the wing and give Bennett Lucic and a PK specialist.