GDT: Flames @ Jets - 5pm MT on SN

[OvermanKingGainer]

He is doesn't score he's useless? He's been a good penalty killer all year,

He would probably need to score at an all-star level (55+ points) to justify the inadequacies of rest of his game.

And the idea that he's been a good penalty killer is also a myth. For every good net front seal-out that makes him look better than he is, he is allowing the most zone time, the most shots, the most goals per minute, and at this point he isn't even on one of our top three penalty kill units by usage (Backlund-Frolik / Stajan-Bouma / Bennett-Chiasson are all relied upon more consistently and by merit as all six players have outplayed Brouwer on the PK)

not to mention one of our more physical forwards.

This is supposed to be impressive? Very rarely do his hits help the team as they are reliably late and rarely significant. Both his smaller, more skilled linemates seem to be doing more fighting than he is. No one is intimidated by him and it was him that was on the ice all game with Gaudreau that time Staal broke Gaudreau's fingers with 20+ slashes; he had zero value in deterring that garbage. What exactly is he here for?

he is not useless when he doesn't have the puck

Really? He's always caught deep defensively without the foot speed to recover and pressure, when he does get the puck along the walls he rarely hits his center on the tape on the exit, he's horrible on the forecheck due to his concrete feet, he is invisible on the trap, his defensemen don't trust him to cover for tight gaps and end up allowing easier entries when he's the covering forward, compared to every other forward on the roster.

That's like, the definition of useless when he doesn't have the puck. If you have functioning eyes it's an observable effect every shift. No, finishing a basic check while the other team gets the puck ahead to the next guy is not being useful without the puck. The point of finishing checks is not finishing checks, it's to force worse decisions and Brouwer doesn't do it.

You might hate shot metric stats but the ONLY forward on the ENTIRE team who allows more shots through defensively on this roster is Hunter Shinkaruk, and he's a 22 year old undersized winger who's back in the AHL and certainly isn't a standard-bearer for play away from the puck. And that's a stat that includes shot blocking, so if you are blocking shots this is a stat that should be favouring you.

Brouwer has no excuse. We're not talking about offense here. We're not talking about his total inability to generate shots. We are talking about the fact that our goalies see 26.5% more pucks tossed in their direction when he's on the ice, even when adjusted for score situations like late game leads. It's not his centers' fault, because they've both been much better away from him both to the eye of the person with functioning eyes and the numbers that simply measure the events occuring on the ice.

But okay, he's good in the locker room. The one part of the game neither of us can observe with our eyes.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Just catching up on the highlights and holy crap, I didn't know Bennett had it in him!

How did Wideman look tonight?

That fight was amazing. I don't know if I would say it was the fight of the year, but Bennett is a tough bugger and he can really land some bombs. My favourite fight was when Domi KO's Kesler.

Wideman actually looked fine, I didn't notice him a ton which was nice. He made some simple and smart plays.

 

[Lunatik]

That fight was amazing. I don't know if I would say it was the fight of the year, but Bennett is a tough bugger and he can really land some bombs. My favourite fight was when Domi KO's Kesler.

Wideman actually looked fine, I didn't notice him a ton which was nice. He made some simple and smart plays.

Another thing Wideman brings that many ignore, is he is one of the best at keeping the puck in at the offensive blueline.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Another thing Wideman brings that many ignore, is he is one of the best at keeping the puck in at the offensive blueline.

I agree. I was a little worried that he was going to try and do to much, but I thought he played a smart game. I preferred him to Bartowski if I'm being honest.

 

[Unlimited Chequing]

Awesome. Yeah, I was a little worried going into the game that Wideman was going to try and over play to get back into the line up, but if he was just keeping it simple and smart, it's when he's at his best.

 

[Volica]

Just watched Bennet/Trouba fight.

Wow... I'm blown away!

Really wish Bennett and Versteeg didn't have to fight; those two guys are skilled forwards. It's not like their other linemate should be the one doing those things or anything.

 

[Mitts]

Just catching up on the highlights and holy crap, I didn't know Bennett had it in him!

How did Wideman look tonight?

Yeah Bennett's like a pitbull, he just swings for the fences when he fights. Widedog looked surprisingly good. A few nights ago it was full panic mode with Stone and Hamilton, now it's just relief.

 

[Volica]

Yeah Bennett's like a pitbull, he just swings for the fences when he fights. Widedog looked surprisingly good. A few nights ago it was full panic mode with Stone and Hamilton, now it's just relief.

Wideman is not as bad as people make him out to be. Clearly he's not good either... but he's a good #7 to have sitting in the pressbox. A guy with a lot of experience in the league, some at a very high level, that can fill in where needed.

More or less what we hoped Grossmann would be... then it turned out the guy wasn't even an AHL level player anymore

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Wideman is not as bad as people make him out to be. Clearly he's not good either... but he's a good #7 to have sitting in the pressbox. A guy with a lot of experience in the league, some at a very high level, that can fill in where needed.

More or less what we hoped Grossmann would be... then it turned out the guy wasn't even an AHL level player anymore

For 5+ million, Widedawg better damn well be the best, bloody #7 in the league

 

[Volica]

For 5+ million, Widedawg better damn well be the best, bloody #7 in the league

Absolutely.
For 5 million, you kind of want a top 4D

Happy that contract will be off the books this summer. Wideman has had to be one of the most polarizing Flames players from the last 4-5 years right?

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Absolutely.
For 5 million, you kind of want a top 4D

Happy that contract will be off the books this summer. Wideman has had to be one of the most polarizing Flames players from the last 4-5 years right?

Yeah he definitely is. He seems like a good teammate, but I'm looking forward to just going in a different direction. I see him getting a PTO next training camp and I hope he gets on and lands with a good team. It's probably going to be Detroit.

 

[Flames Fanatic]

He is doesn't score he's useless? He's been a good penalty killer all year, not to mention one of our more physical forwards. Offensively he hasn't been as good as was hoped, but everything else is exactly what he was brought in for, which is the fact he is not useless when he doesn't have the puck and he's good in the room. You are so hung up on possession stats that you ignore the positives he does bring. I'm not going to pretend he's having a great year, because he's not but calling him useless is absolutely clueless.

Except I don't feel like he's doing any of that. You know I'm not a slave to advanced stats, and just purely off watching him, he's not playing well.

He's not playing the PK much, as pointed out by OKG.

He's not playing physical in a meaningful way. Finishing his checks on the forecheck when the puck is long gone doesn't really do much.

He's the slowest player in the forward core by a decent margin. There was a particular play I think it was last game where he gets a pass between our blue line and center ice line and has a half step on the defense. By the time he gets the blue line, both of the other teams defense were back and our two forwards had caught up. And he was trying to skate hard.

Our third line is by far the weak link on the team right now. It feels like they get hemmed in our zone more than any other line, they don't win puck battles, and most of their time in the offensive zone they lose the puck once they try their first pass. It's really painful to watch.

I'm not saying Brouwer is useless per say, I'm saying I like Chiasson better lately, and you know my feelings on Chiasson. Even Bouma has been outplaying Brouwer of late. I really, really need to see Brouwer step it up both now and in the playoffs before I join the bandwagon of hoping he's exposed. Just can't afford to have 4.5 million on our third line RW that isn't producing. If he was playing well, sure it's not ideal, but if it's working then don't break it. Problem is, it's not working.

If we want to keep Bennett at center, then I want Brouwer to sit a game and Lazar to draw in on the 4th line and have Chiasson bump up to the third. Or put Lazar on the third line.

It's really bad for the team moving forward if arguably our worst playing RW, 4th line Center, 4th line LW are making nearly 9 million between them.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

The main reason I wanted Boudreau so bad is because he's notorious for having good special teams and defense. Those were our weaknesses.

I look at the job Gully has done and he's improved both those areas and now our 5 on 5 play is really showing signs of improving as well.

It's impressive.

 

[Unlimited Chequing]

Wideman is not as bad as people make him out to be. Clearly he's not good either... but he's a good #7 to have sitting in the pressbox. A guy with a lot of experience in the league, some at a very high level, that can fill in where needed.

More or less what we hoped Grossmann would be... then it turned out the guy wasn't even an AHL level player anymore

Yup, I'm in the camp that thinks Wideman doesn't deserve all the flack he gets here. I think many people's biggest hang up is the kind of performance he puts up for what he's paid, but most people either forget, ignore, or don't realize (and this has been brought up numerous times) that when he was signed, we were expected to be a bottom dwelling team in rebuild mode and needed to overpay the free agents to get them to play here as a stop gap until we were ready to compete. If he was making something like $3M, people would have a lot less to complain about.

His veteran experience is going to come in very handy as we make our run to (and hopefully) in the post-season.

 

[Calculon]

Yeah no, Wideman was signed before the Flames committed to a rebuild. He was brought in to supplement the aging core along with Hartley precisely so the Flames wouldn't have to actually rebuild but rather just retool on the fly. That's what Feaster sold ownership on when either he or they refused to go along with a full rebuild.

It's not a salary thing, it's a 'he-doesn't-have-the-foot-speed-to-play-top-four-minutes-anymore-thing'. It's a 'he's-not-even-useful-on-the-powerplay-anymore-so-what-exactly-is-his-purpose' thing? Sheltered bottom pairing? Fine. Not ideal, far from it honestly, but manageable in the short term. Top three in ice time? There's something seriously wrong with the organization.

And veterans decline; it's a fact of life. It's amazing how many excuses people can come up with for declining veterans like Wideman and Brouwer but will so readily throw every prospect under the bus for not being a superstar and not having everything figured out by the age of 20.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Yeah UC, Calculon is correct. Wideman was signed/traded for when Iginla was still on the team. I remember when he was dealt, there was some talk if he, Cammy and Hudler would want to be here. I remember Feaster saying that anyone who didn't want to be around or wanted a trade knew where his office was.

I think Wideman has had a lot of lows here and a lot of highs. The season him and Russell had was easily his best. He isn't bad every game either but if he's not 100% focused, he's had some horrific sequences of hockey.

He doesn't deserve all the hate he gets, but I think it's best for everyone for a fresh start, most of all our penalty box. I'm hoping he goes out on a high note, he played quite good for us the last time we were in the playoffs.

 

[Unlimited Chequing]

Ah, then I stand corrected. Who am I thinking of? Bollig and Engelland?

My fault for not fact checking.

 

[Lunatik]

Ah, then I stand corrected. Who am I thinking of? Bollig and Engelland?

My fault for not fact checking.

Depends when you believe the rebuild started. I believe it started when Regehr and Langkow were moved out

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Depends when you believe the rebuild started. I believe it started when Regehr and Langkow were moved out

Regehr asked for a trade though and I think Langkow was let go because the Flames were not sure that he was going to be able to play at a high level. I agree those moves for sure fast tracked our rebuild, but after they were gone we still had Iggy, Cammy, Hudler, Jbo and Wideman.

I think it went from an official retool to rebuild once Iggy and Jbo were dealt. The only reason why this even matters is because Wideman was sold on coming here because he thought we would be a team competiting for the playoffs. Funnily enough, we were after all those moves were done.

And UC, I'm pretty sure it was Engelland. We definitely overpaid for him but thankfully he's filled his role well.

 

[Mobiandi]

Langkow was a 1 for 1 move for Stempniak who was 28 at the time to keep us competitive.

Shipping off Stempniak for a 3rd was part of a rebuilding move on our part

 

[Unlimited Chequing]

Regehr asked for a trade though

I remember it as Regehr not wanting to leave Calgary until Darcy Regier was given permission to talk to him and convince him to go to Buffalo. But after my Wideman comment, maybe my memory isn't so trustworthy haha

And yeah, I considered it going from retool to full on rebuild as soon as we cut Iggy loose.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

I remember it as Regehr not wanting to leave Calgary until Darcy Regier was given permission to talk to him and convince him to go to Buffalo. But after my Wideman comment, maybe my memory isn't so trustworthy haha

And yeah, I considered it going from retool to full on rebuild as soon as we cut Iggy loose.

I guess at the end of the season, Regehr went to Feaster and asked for a trade at their end of season meeting. I won't be able to find the link but I know it happened. It was something like, Regehr said he would consider a trade to the right place, basically I want out if you can find a good fit.

Buffalo was on his no-trade list so Buffalo had to sell Regehr to waive his clause to go there.

 

[Calculon]

Regehr really wanted to go to San Jose but when they got Burns from Minnesota, they weren't interested anymore. Buffalo's owner had to get involved to convince Regher to waive for them.

And yeah, the rebuild definitely did not begin until they moved Iginla and Bouwmeester. The years prior were attempts to retool on the fly; in fact, one of the big reasons why Regehr was moved was so the Flames could go after Brad Richards (Feaster's defence of the trade is pretty hilarious - "As I said to him, the Buffalo deal from our perspective was so significant and we liked it so much that there weren't other offers that came close to that offer". There was also the acquisition of Cammalleri for Bourque and futures, signing both Wideman and Hudler, pursuing Ryan Smyth, etc.

 

[Volica]

Also worth noting that Feaster said on multiple occasions that if they wanted to rebuild; they should find a new GM because he was there to win. ****. Should they have ever found a new GM.