Post-Game Talk: Flames 3, Pens 2 (SO) - Flames Dump on HSL's Triumphant Return

[Mr Jiggyfly]

You can tell that Guentzel is a natural center because of how responsible he plays away from the puck and how he can control the pace of play. Guentzel has a pace of 25 goals and 50 points through his first 15 games in the NHL, I don't see him producing less than that throughout the next few years. I still think they need to be giving him more ice time though, he has been hovering around 14:00 a game for a lot of this year until recently. I want to continue seeing him get 15+ minutes a game. His point/60 is 3rd best on the Penguins right now, but even with him getting more ice time, I expect him to stay in the top-5 (probably at #4, below Malkin and below Kessel).

Funny stat I saw: for all of the complaining about Guentzel's defensive game not being NHL ready, let's see where his GA/60 falls. Look at that, it didn't stay at the 3.72 it was in his first 5 games and now it's at 2.46 (right around all of Crosby, Malkin and Cullen). What a shock, he actually wasn't horrible defensively.

Ya anyone who watches Guenztel with regularity knows how good his two way game is. He's regularly cleaning up loose pucks in the slot as a winger in his own zone. That's pretty impressive.

He's a machine on the backcheck as well and doing an excellent job of chipping pucks into the NZ when pressured up high in his zone.

Not sure what else you could ask from him at this stage defensively.

The only question I have is why he isn't getting fed more opportunities by his linemates. I've been watching him to make sure he is finding soft spots and opening himself up for shots and he is... Bones, Kessel and Malkin just don't seem to want to feed him the puck. Maybe they will take a cue from Cole and Hornqvist...

It's like bizarro world.

 

[billybudd]

Guentzel's goal was really impressive. A number of things happened in a quick period of time that most guys--even most goal-scorers--wouldn't have reacted quick enough to get that shot on net with no hesitation at all.

 

[Rocket of Russia]

It's one of those moves that looks lame if you don't score, but many times he's stickhandled and snapped it in in like a split second. I don't even think Sid dekes a great deal for how great of a player he is, but I think his snap shot is his best shooting asset.

It's a move that's great on a breakaway, where the goalie doesn't have 5 min to think about it and terrible in the shootout.

Both are pretty fair points.

There's definitely a difference in approach for both the goaltender and player in a breakaway that takes place in game vs. a shootout. Sid's quick-release snapshot tends to be more effective when he's coming in with a lot of speed and the goaltender hasn't been able to assess the entirety of the situation. A half-speed pace just isn't going to hide the release as well with a totally prepared goaltender.

Also, Sid does need to deke more. For as flat as that curve is and his insatiable appetite for improving aspects of his game, I'm actually pretty surprised he hasn't developed a Frans Nielsen type of backhand finish in the shootouts.

 

[YourAverageFan*]

Flames fan coming in peace:

You guys definitely deserved 2 points tonight. The Flames were lucky to get one point, let alone 2. But after dominating the Rangers Sunday and not getting a single point out of that game, we were bound to finally have a game where we were dominated but ended up on the winning side.

Crosby needs to stop using the same move every single time in the shootout though.

 

[ColePens]

Guentzel's goal was really impressive. A number of things happened in a quick period of time that most guys--even most goal-scorers--wouldn't have reacted quick enough to get that shot on net with no hesitation at all.

I'll even say Guentzel just flat out was impressive. He was noticeable the entire game with or without that goal. The goal was a nice cherry on top. I noticed hardcore Hags like backchecking. I noticed very strong forechecking. I noticed skill, speed, and shot.

But even better, I'm seeing growth of a skilled kid who is developing an NHL game.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

That Crosby give-away though, and to a goon.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

Crosby has the best career shootout numbers on the team. It would seem that favoring one of his strengths(low snap shot) has served him pretty well to this point.

So the best player on the team has the best numbers? That doesn't make any sense.

 

[Pancakes]

Guentzel looks better suited as a winger to me.

 

[EliteGoaltending]

Crosby has the best career shootout numbers on the team. It would seem that favoring one of his strengths(low snap shot) has served him pretty well to this point.

According to Ryan Wilson's article he's 2 for 11 in the last two years, so he definitely needs to try something different. I remember him deking and scoring in some recent shootout (it was last season iirc), against Montreal, need more of that.

 

[EliteGoaltending]

Ya anyone who watches Guenztel with regularity knows how good his two way game is. He's regularly cleaning up loose pucks in the slot as a winger in his own zone. That's pretty impressive.

He's a machine on the backcheck as well and doing an excellent job of chipping pucks into the NZ when pressured up high in his zone.

Not sure what else you could ask from him at this stage defensively.

The only question I have is why he isn't getting fed more opportunities by his linemates. I've been watching him to make sure he is finding soft spots and opening himself up for shots and he is... Bones, Kessel and Malkin just don't seem to want to feed him the puck. Maybe they will take a cue from Cole and Hornqvist...

It's like bizarro world.

So where are your constant complaints about Bonino and Kessel then? (I also saw Daley ignoring open Guentzel on few occasions). I wouldn't pay much attention to your comments on this, because I think you're exaggerating, but other posters on here were picking up your narrative.

I think everything is fine, it's not like Hornqvist and Cole are feeding him the puck all the time, everyone is working according to situation. I saw passes from Kessel, Malkin and Bonino to Guentzel, I also saw them not passing to him on some occasions, so what? Them forcing everything to Guentzel would be worse and would lead to more turnovers.
Guentzel and his linemates are doing fine and it has a potential to get better, with him gaining more experience in the NHL and with them reading better off each other.

 

[TheSniper26]

So the best player on the team has the best numbers? That doesn't make any sense.

You're criticizing the effectiveness of what he's doing in the shootout. I posted some numbers showing that what he's been doing in the shootout to this point has worked pretty well. I'm sorry if this is yet another thing that upsets you.

 

[MtlPenFan]

Lines are 100% because of Sid.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

So where are your constant complaints about Bonino and Kessel then? (I also saw Daley ignoring open Guentzel on few occasions). I wouldn't pay much attention to your comments on this, because I think you're exaggerating, but other posters on here were picking up your narrative.

I think everything is fine, it's not like Hornqvist and Cole are feeding him the puck all the time, everyone is working according to situation. I saw passes from Kessel, Malkin and Bonino to Guentzel, I also saw them not passing to him on some occasions, so what? Them forcing everything to Guentzel would be worse and would lead to more turnovers.
Guentzel and his linemates are doing fine and it has a potential to get better, with him gaining more experience in the NHL and with them reading better off each other.

Why would I care if you pay attention to my comments on this?

I already made it a point to focus on Malkin during a three game stretch after making my original comments and he passed it to Guenztel a total of five times in those games - combined. I rewind my DVR during commercials and the intermission all the time when I'm trying to dissect stuff, so I'm quite sure when I say things like this.

So nah, it's not my imagination and ya, I trust what I see more than you.

As far as Kessel and Bones, feel free to point out any looks they have given him at the net.

I'll wait.

 

[Fordy]

So where are your constant complaints about Bonino and Kessel then? (I also saw Daley ignoring open Guentzel on few occasions). I wouldn't pay much attention to your comments on this, because I think you're exaggerating, but other posters on here were picking up your narrative.

I think everything is fine, it's not like Hornqvist and Cole are feeding him the puck all the time, everyone is working according to situation. I saw passes from Kessel, Malkin and Bonino to Guentzel, I also saw them not passing to him on some occasions, so what? Them forcing everything to Guentzel would be worse and would lead to more turnovers.
Guentzel and his linemates are doing fine and it has a potential to get better, with him gaining more experience in the NHL and with them reading better off each other.

lol no one is picking up someone else's narrative. i think it's been pretty clear to plenty of people that guentzel is getting the puck for some reason

 

[Al Smith]

Ya anyone who watches Guenztel with regularity knows how good his two way game is. He's regularly cleaning up loose pucks in the slot as a winger in his own zone. That's pretty impressive.

He's a machine on the backcheck as well and doing an excellent job of chipping pucks into the NZ when pressured up high in his zone.

Not sure what else you could ask from him at this stage defensively.

The only question I have is why he isn't getting fed more opportunities by his linemates. I've been watching him to make sure he is finding soft spots and opening himself up for shots and he is... Bones, Kessel and Malkin just don't seem to want to feed him the puck. Maybe they will take a cue from Cole and Hornqvist...

It's like bizarro world.

Kessel did feed him a back door pass that was about three feet off the ice; I think 59 got wood on it, but couldn't bat it in. Earlier in the game, there was another instance where 59 had made a wonderful move to open space and Kessel didn't even try to get him the puck; could almost see the irritation in 59's face.

 

[EliteGoaltending]

Why would I care if you pay attention to my comments on this?

I already made it a point to focus on Malkin during a three game stretch after making my original comments and he passed it to Guenztel a total of five times in those games - combined. I rewind my DVR during commercials and the intermission all the time when I'm trying to dissect stuff, so I'm quite sure when I say things like this.

So nah, it's not my imagination and ya, I trust what I see more than you.

As far as Kessel and Bones, feel free to point out any looks they have given him at the net.

I'll wait.

I meant, I commenting on this because I think you're created a narrative and some picked it up.
My point was, where are your constant complaints about Bonino and Kessel? A la those you had with Malkin on the same subject? Double standards?
I don't track all plays and passes, but I definitely saw passes from Kessel and Bonino to Guentzel. Just of the top of my head, I remember Kesse in the left corner feeding the puck to Guentzel, it was aginst Nashville or St. Louis.
You make it sound like Guentzel is open all the time and no one passes to him, except Hornqvist and Cole, that's just not true.

I remember when it was Guentzel-Malkin-Hornqvist line, Guentzel was going to the net a lot and was well covered there, but that line worked well on the circle together, creating a lot of pressure from below the goal line.
Last's night game I think Guentzel was better than both of his linemates. Bonino's largely invisible this season, Kessel had a great game against Columbus, but hasn't been terribly noticeable since.
Guentzel-Malkin-Kessel line was pretty good in their three games together(in Guentzel's first stint), they created a lot of chances and were scoring. But this line is not really strong away from the puck.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Kessel did feed him a back door pass that was about three feet off the ice; I think 59 got wood on it, but couldn't bat it in. Earlier in the game, there was another instance where 59 had made a wonderful move to open space and Kessel didn't even try to get him the puck; could almost see the irritation in 59's face.

Ya, it's a weird trend, but at least Bones and Kessel realize he exists and pass him the puck. They just aren't giving him any prime looks on net. But he is at least possessing the puck with them and getting shots on net through his own talent.

Malkin flat out ignored him and he rarely got to touch the puck. Guenztel had two shots in five games with Malkin. Two shots.

With Kessel and Bones he has six shots in four games.

I meant, I commenting on this because I think you're created a narrative and some picked it up.
My point was, where are your constant complaints about Bonino and Kessel? A la those you had with Malkin on the same subject? Double standards?
I don't track all plays and passes, but I definitely saw passes from Kessel and Bonino to Guentzel. Just of the top of my head, I remember Kesse in the left corner feeding the puck to Guentzel, it was aginst Nashville or St. Louis.
You make it sound like Guentzel is open all the time and no one passes to him, except Hornqvist and Cole, that's just not true.

I remember when it was Guentzel-Malkin-Hornqvist line, Guentzel was going to the net a lot and was well covered there, but that line worked well on the circle together, creating a lot of pressure from below the goal line.
Last's night game I think Guentzel was better than both of his linemates. Bonino's largely invisible this season, Kessel had a great game against Columbus, but hasn't been terribly noticeable since.
Guentzel-Malkin-Kessel line was pretty good in their three games together(in Guentzel's first stint), they created a lot of chances and were scoring. But this line is not really strong away from the puck.

I'm not going to complain about Kessel and Bones because they are using Guenztel, they just aren't setting him up for any looks on net. Not even good looks, just any types of looks. Yet he is giving them plenty of chances. It just seems weird to me, given how often I see Guenztel getting open in the slot

Malkin on the other hand didn't let him have the puck - at all.

Huge difference.

Like I said above, two shots in five games on Malkins line is quite telling.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

You're criticizing the effectiveness of what he's doing in the shootout. I posted some numbers showing that what he's been doing in the shootout to this point has worked pretty well. I'm sorry if this is yet another thing that upsets you.

You posted is career % vs his teammates to try to prove that he hasn't become predictable, lol. Care to show how your stats show why he's 2-9 in his last 11 shots?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

The idea is one defensive forward with one offensive forward. Bonino was a great defensive forward. I have seen Sully put Cullen with Kessel lately and not use Bonino. I believe that happened 4 on 4 and 3 on 3 recently.

But the concept is one responsible forward and one Kessel who will go out there and look to score.

I get that part. But you still have to have somebody who can move to exploit the extra space, not play catch-up for an entire shift.

Cullen in that role is fine.

Bonino has no offensive skill this season, I'd like to know why he's the one getting 1st PP time now. It's like, him at even-strength wasn't bad enough, now our PP has to not only look ugly, but not result in any goals anymore. Guentzel should be there for the time being.

Word.

Guentzel's goal was really impressive. A number of things happened in a quick period of time that most guys--even most goal-scorers--wouldn't have reacted quick enough to get that shot on net with no hesitation at all.

Too few NHLers - even good ones - understand that shooting before a goalie is set is more important than picking corners.

Seems like Guentzel gets it.

 

[EliteGoaltending]

Ya, it's a weird trend, but at least Bones and Kessel realize he exists and pass him the puck. They just aren't giving him any prime looks on net. But he is at least possessing the puck with them and getting shots on net through his own talent.

Malkin flat out ignored him and he rarely got to touch the puck. Guenztel had two shots in five games with Malkin. Two shots.

With Kessel and Bones he has six shots in four games.



I'm not going to complain about Kessel and Bones because they are using Guenztel, they just aren't setting him up for any looks on net. Not even good looks, just any types of looks. Yet he is giving them plenty of chances. It just seems weird to me, given how often I see Guenztel getting open in the slot

Malkin on the other hand didn't let him have the puck - at all.

Huge difference.

Like I said above, two shots in five games on Malkins line is quite telling.

He had 7 shots in 5 games in his first stint,playing with Malkin and Kessel.

I think he and Malkin were cooperating just fine. I saw Malkin not passing the puck to open Guentzel only on some zone entries. While in Ozone, Guentzel was almost always heading to the net and was drawing defenders to him, he wasn't open. Guentzel and Malkin were working fine on the circle together with Hornqvist.
I think when it was Guentzel-Malkin-Kessel line he had more space and more open opportunities, but not with Malkin-Hornqvist duo.
edit: btw shots can be misleading in this discussion, unless you're tracking what of it came at ES and what on the PP.

 

[TheSniper26]

You posted is career % vs his teammates to try to prove that he hasn't become predictable, lol. Care to show how your stats show why he's 2-9 in his last 11 shots?

So of the 82 he's taken over the last 12 years, it's only in his last 11 shots that he's become predictable? Is that your argument?

You do realize that if he had simply converted 2 more of those 11 shots then he'd be pretty much right around his career average, right? You're mad that, over his last 11 attempts, he's basically 2 goals off his normal team leading conversion rate. Dear god the horror!!!

 

[Crosbyfan]

I get that part. But you still have to have somebody who can move to exploit the extra space, not play catch-up for an entire shift.

Cullen in that role is fine.



Word.



Too few NHLers - even good ones - understand that shooting before a goalie is set is more important than picking corners.

Seems like Guentzel gets it.

Amen...don't shoot when you're ready...shoot when the goalie is not

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

He had 7 shots in 5 games in his first stint,playing with Malkin and Kessel.

I think he and Malkin were cooperating just fine. I saw Malkin not passing the puck to open Guentzel only on some zone entries. While in Ozone, Guentzel was almost always heading to the net and was drawing defenders to him, he wasn't open. Guentzel and Malkin were working fine on the circle together with Hornqvist.
I think when it was Guentzel-Malkin-Kessel line he had more space and more open opportunities, but not with Malkin-Hornqvist duo.
edit: btw shots can be misleading in this discussion, unless you're tracking what of it came at ES and what on the PP.

Nah, shots aren't misleading in this case because I went back and rewatched all of their shifts during commercials/intermission like I already said. I'm not guessing or misremembering. I literally tracked it for three games before Malkin went down.

Malkin ignored Guenztel on a majority of his shifts. I saw it real time, confirmed what I saw with a flick of a button, and his shot stats also accurately reflect what I was seeing. Guenztel wasn't touching the puck because Malkin was hogging it up.

And ya, they seemed to click a little better earlier in the season when it was Kessel and Malkn with Guenztel... which makes it quite weird why Malkin was ignoring him during this last stint.