Fire/Don't Fire/Discuss Torts II

[blahblah]

Yes, he took all that talent in Toronto to...three straight first round playoff losses. The guy coached some amazingly talented teams and has precisely three playoff series victories in the last decade. He went 19-27 in the playoffs after Lidstrom retired.

Babcock is overrated.

Don't be a rube, many coaches have taken a few seasons to get over the hump in the playoffs. This is just some if the silliest nonsense I've read, partly because his stock is at its lowest so it's almost virtually impossible for him to be "overrated" at this point. He's going to be the next NHL whipping boy.

Clown fans had dug Hitch his grave, as an example, and he had success after his time here. Torts was just destroyed and he's had success here. Fans are just awful at head coaching evaluations, even worse than with players. They just cherry pick random crap to fit their narrative. Some of the player development talk around here is just intellectually dishonest, as an example. They ignore his successes and focus on perceived failures.

I'm really tired of clown shows. We have enough in real life without it spilling over into our hockey.

 

[Monstershockey]

I'm already factoring in a ton of lost production from Panarin. Like the top line scoring cut in half. I think it's wildly over-counting his loss if you're going to do that and then factor in loss of scoring on the 2nd and 3rd lines. Those lines scored in bunches last year without Panarin on the ice, and the fact that they hadn't done so so far this year is an underperformance.

You're also getting the "forces up the lineup" part backwards. Players typically score more when they are forced up the lineup to fill in for injuries or absences. Duclair and Pageau are doing it right now in Ottawa, Fabbri has been doing it since he went to Detroit. The prime opportunities outweigh the better opposition (which is significantly overstated - in the regular season players are rarely line matched more than half the game).

My comments are not intended as a comment on Torts one way or the other. But I wouldn't give Torts a pass just because a player is struggling. It's his job to keep the players thriving! It's what a coach is for.

I wouldn't give Torts a pass for struggling players, but, this team right now is not in a hopeless position. What he has done since he has been here earns him the right to have an off year. He should get the chance to retool and see if he can right the ship. Unless they end up 20 or so games under .500 you can explore change, but if they stay where they are record wise, there really should be no talk of firing him. As bad as it has been, it could be a whole lot worse, and if three or four guys start playing the way they are capable, it will get better.

 

[Finner]

If Torts gets fired, lets call Jukka Jalonen

 

[DarkandStormy]

Don't be a rube, many coaches have taken a few seasons to get over the hump in the playoffs. This is just some if the silliest nonsense I've read, partly because his stock is at its lowest so it's almost virtually impossible for him to be "overrated" at this point. He's going to be the next NHL whipping boy.

Clown fans had dug Hitch his grave, as an example, and he had success after his time here. Torts was just destroyed and he's had success here. Fans are just awful at head coaching evaluations, even worse than with players. They just cherry pick random crap to fit their narrative. Some of the player development talk around here is just intellectually dishonest, as an example. They ignore his successes and focus on perceived failures.

I'm really tired of clown shows. We have enough in real life without it spilling over into our hockey.

Many people who aren't a random user on a forum have been saying Babcock is overrated and not all that good. He rode JSG to a Cup appearance and Lidstrom/Datsyuk/Zetterberg in Detroit. He hasn't really done anything outside of that. His teams in Toronto have had systemic issues for awhile now. Obviously, we'll see if they improve with a different coach in there or not. He's a good coach, but not a great coach. And one who hasn't adjusted to changes in the game, but apparently gets a pass on that. Torts is in the same boat.

 

[Monstershockey]

Many people who aren't a random user on a forum have been saying Babcock is overrated and not all that good. He rode JSG to a Cup appearance and Lidstrom/Datsyuk/Zetterberg in Detroit. He hasn't really done anything outside of that. His teams in Toronto have had systemic issues for awhile now. Obviously, we'll see if they improve with a different coach in there or not. He's a good coach, but not a great coach. And one who hasn't adjusted to changes in the game, but apparently gets a pass on that. Torts is in the same boat.

You should really cite some examples of what you say. Who is "many people". How do you know he rode these guys when he was coach? Were you in the room? Did you hear those guys say "don't worry Babs, we got this, just come along for the ride". You and Bread Man just like to throw things out there and not say why you are saying it. I am sure Babcock just didn't go along for the ride. So many things have to happen the right way to win a championship, no one just goes along for the ride.

 

[DarkandStormy]

 

[majormajor]

I absolutely loathe Torts using the press to trash his players, he said that to the Quebec media in Montreal of all places.

But I don't know if I'd say Duclair was made any worse from Torts. I've watched some Duclair games this year and he's playing a smarter overall game than he has at any point in his career prior. You could say that's evidence that Torts failed, or you could say that's evidence that Torts succeeded. Duclair came here because Torts was recommended to him as someone who would turn his career around. His career looks to have turned around.

 

[koteka]

Duclair is 24 and playing on his 5th NHL team. So let’s fire Torts because he is scoring this year.

 

[Monstershockey]

Maybe Duclair figured the only way to stop being traded is that he should contribute more and play a better game.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Don't be a rube, many coaches have taken a few seasons to get over the hump in the playoffs. This is just some if the silliest nonsense I've read, partly because his stock is at its lowest so it's almost virtually impossible for him to be "overrated" at this point. He's going to be the next NHL whipping boy.

Clown fans had dug Hitch his grave, as an example, and he had success after his time here. Torts was just destroyed and he's had success here. Fans are just awful at head coaching evaluations, even worse than with players. They just cherry pick random crap to fit their narrative. Some of the player dent talk around here is just intellectually dishonest, as an example. They ignore his successes and focus on perceived failures.

I'm really tired of clown shows. We have enough in real life without it spilling over into our hockey.

Do you know what Babcock's playoff record is over the past 8 years? Didn't think so. Doubt you have any idea what he did in period 3 of the Leafs game 7 loss last year. You may want to watch a game or two before you come in so spicy. It's not 2008 anymore.

Babcock is OVERRATED. By a lot.

 

[Monstershockey]

Do you know what Babcock's playoff record is over the past 8 years? Didn't think so. Doubt you have any idea what he did in period 3 of the Leafs game 7 loss last year. You may want to watch a game or two before you come in so spicy. It's not 2008 anymore.

Babcock is OVERRATED. By a lot.

What did he do in game 7?

 

[Cyclones Rock]

What did he do in game 7?

Played his 3rd line more than his first line while trailing in the 3rd period of a game 7.

Dan Bylsma has won a playoff series more recently than Babcock. Babcock's reputation is built on some very yellow newspaper clippings.

 

[Monstershockey]

Played his 3rd line more than his first line while trailing in the 3rd period of a game 7.

Dan Bylsma has won a playoff series more recently than Babcock. Babcock's reputation is built on some very yellow newspaper clippings.

Ok. I don't regard Babcock as anything great, but he is probably a good coach. Looking at the box from that game, it looked like the first line was not playing very well and Boston was scoring when they were on the ice. Sometimes playing your best players doesn't give you your best chance to win and a coach has to see that and adjust accordingly. It looked like they were in the game until late, but they weren't getting anything out of their top line. He had to make a decision on who to play and he did and it didn't work. If it had, then everyone would be calling him a genious when all he did was his job. If he kept the first line out there, and they did nothing, people would have been saying he should have played them less because they were unproductive. I really don't see it as a bad decision based on the circumstances.

 

[DarkandStormy]

You should really cite some examples of what you say. Who is "many people". How do you know he rode these guys when he was coach? Were you in the room? Did you hear those guys say "don't worry Babs, we got this, just come along for the ride". You and Bread Man just like to throw things out there and not say why you are saying it. I am sure Babcock just didn't go along for the ride. So many things have to happen the right way to win a championship, no one just goes along for the ride.

 

[Monstershockey]

That was interesting. It probably wasn't a smart thing to do, especially to a rookie, but it did get results. Toronto had a decent year that year and had better years the next two seasons. They were still able to land Tavares. I know it is his hometown team, but if Babcock is that bad of a coach, he probably would have had second thoughts. Every coach does what they think they have to do to get the most out of their players. Sometimes it works, sometime it doesn't. Coaches don't coach to make friends, and a lot of players don't like their coach. The article brings up Scotty Bowman and how his players hated him, but yet he won everywhere he went. I don't see how this has to do with Babcock being overrated. He will probably get a job somewhere else because it seems to be a thing in sports to hire re-treads. I just hope CBJ doesn't fire Torts and hire him. If they fire Torts, I would like them to get a younger head coach, maybe a up and coming AHL guy. But again, Torts hasn't really done anything to get fired over this year.

 

[BluejacketNut]

Rarely does the "win in-spite of the coach" style work, outside of hall of fame laden teams. If you have a veteran team that might work, but rarely is it successful in this day in age or with a young team...Toronto is a classic example of it. Examples of Babcock, Bowman Hitchock and the like all won with hall of fame level talent, not because they're some coaching genius.

 

[thebus88]

So let me get this straight, Torts has played such a huge impact on improving the teams expectations, that he now no longer meets these expectations??

At least let the team and coaches actually miss the playoffs 1st, or maybe even just wait until January, huh?

 

[MoeBartoli]

Rarely does the "win in-spite of the coach" style work, outside of hall of fame laden teams. If you have a veteran team that might work, but rarely is it successful in this day in age or with a young team...Toronto is a classic example of it. Examples of Babcock, Bowman Hitchock and the like all won with hall of fame level talent, not because they're some coaching genius.

Agree that talent is essential, but Bowman was a coaching genius - maybe GOAT.

 

[BluejacketNut]

Agree that talent is essential, but Bowman was a coaching genius - maybe GOAT.

Fair enough, Bowman probably shouldnt be thrown in with those other examples

 

[Madifer]

What a great discussion here guys!

I was going to mention Babcock and what his influence could have been yet its already been discussed and dissected by some of you.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Rarely does the "win in-spite of the coach" style work, outside of hall of fame laden teams. If you have a veteran team that might work, but rarely is it successful in this day in age or with a young team...Toronto is a classic example of it. Examples of Babcock, Bowman Hitchock and the like all won with hall of fame level talent, not because they're some coaching genius.

Bowman was a genius. He won how many Stanley Cups?

If you don't rate Bowman highly, you must think coaching is irrelevant.

**Didn't notice your prior response**

A buddy of mine has a great saying about coaches who win with good/great teams. "He didn't crash the Mercedes".

 

[BluejacketNut]

Bowman was a genius. He won how many Stanley Cups?

If you don't rate Bowman highly, you must think coaching is irrelevant.

I retracted Bowman from my statement.

But i do think coaching can be overvalued, much like a qb where they get too much of the blame at times but also too much credit at times

 

[BluejacketNut]

Bowman was a genius. He won how many Stanley Cups?

If you don't rate Bowman highly, you must think coaching is irrelevant.

**Didn't notice your prior response**

A buddy of mine has a great saying about coaches who win with good/great teams. "He didn't crash the Mercedes".

Well in a following post hehe

 

[blahblah]

So let me get this straight, Torts has played such a huge impact on improving the teams expectations, that he now no longer meets these expectations???

He was an improvement over our previous coach, but what you just stated is pretty subjective. From my perspective, I felt like the front office did more to improve team expectations. They brought in legitimacy and a sense of professionalism as well as competence.

The front office will be as patient with Torts as they want to be, obviously. Some of that could be impacted by fan input, for example attendance. We'll see what happens. The team has stabilized a bit, still not playing like a team that makes the playoffs yet.

 

[BluejacketNut]

One thing that was mentioned by Mike Johnson was about Torts sounding off on Zach's contract negotiations. Players DO NOT like that, and when you're already a hard sell on location for players, having a coach like Tort is just another strike on getting players who want to be here