Fire/Don't Fire/Discuss Torts II

[CBJWerenski8]

Does a lame-duck coach actually want to finish it out? I've never heard this concept of coaches having "earned the right to finish it out". Ken Hitchcock got fired midseason in like every job he had.

The quarantine going to Ohio is not long by the way and people are still doing job interviews on zoom, it seems unaffected. Practice time is a problem for everyone but you still find out a lot about the team and what you need to do for next year.

It’s entirely different situations. You can bring up any coach getting fired and I will keep repeating myself.

I would say yes, torts wants to finish it out here. Because he’s not a quitter. If I’m wrong then I would assume he would resign soon.

Knowing you need to move on and hiring a random coach as your next guy is the wrong move. The Preds did it last year with Hynes and they already regret it. Wait until the offseason and do a proper coaching search.

 

[Johansen2Foligno]

Is there a picture of Torts wearing jorts?

 

[majormajor]

I'm moving this here just to keep things organized.

It’s entirely different situations. You can bring up any coach getting fired and I will keep repeating myself.

I would say yes, torts wants to finish it out here. Because he’s not a quitter. If I’m wrong then I would assume he would resign soon.

Knowing you need to move on and hiring a random coach as your next guy is the wrong move. The Preds did it last year with Hynes and they already regret it. Wait until the offseason and do a proper coaching search.

I don't think there are necessarily more coaches available in the summer. If that is the best time for a coaching search, then sure, but I haven't heard that.

If Torts loses the room and Gallant is willing to come here, then you'd be a fool to say "sorry Gerard, we've got to let Torts play it out, he's earned it".

 

[CBJWerenski8]

I'm moving this here just to keep things organized.



I don't think there are necessarily more coaches available in the summer. If that is the best time for a coaching search, then sure, but I haven't heard that.

If Torts loses the room and Gallant is willing to come here, then you'd be a fool to say "sorry Gerard, we've got to let Torts play it out, he's earned it".

of course there will be more coaches available in the summer, we're not the only team thats going to be switching coaches.

Gallant will have his pick at many jobs, and while I like the idea of that hire I don't know if he'd be willing to come back here.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

I agree switching coaches is probably the right call. Doing it in season is not the right call.

Maybe the team just isn’t that good?

There is probably some truth to that. It looks pretty clear to me that the players Jarmo and the scouting department drafts are square pegs trying to fit into Torts'' round hole.

Or the players are the round hole and Torts is trying force a square peg into them.

 

[Cowumbus]

of course there will be more coaches available in the summer, we're not the only team thats going to be switching coaches.

Gallant will have his pick at many jobs, and while I like the idea of that hire I don't know if he'd be willing to come back here.

Why not try to get him before other teams do then?

 

[majormajor]

of course there will be more coaches available in the summer, we're not the only team thats going to be switching coaches.

Gallant will have his pick at many jobs, and while I like the idea of that hire I don't know if he'd be willing to come back here.

You should already see the flip side of that. If we aren't the only team switching coaches then the best coaches available get to be pickier.

In any case, if Jarmo wants to he can go talk to whatever unemployed coach is out there. He could call Gallant tomorrow and ask him if he would step in if it came to that. That's how replacements are very often named the same day the previous coach is canned. They already did the legwork.

 

[MAHJ71]

Honestly I think Gallant would jump at the chance to redeem himself with CBJ... out of anybody right now, he would be my pick.

Granted I don't know much of anything about the Finnish coach people seem to be bringing up a lot lately.

Either way, unless Torts can suddenly change water into wine I feel like if we finish the season with him out of principle its going to get ugly given the lack of response this team has shown thus far.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Why I don't think think Gallant won't seriously consider the CBJ.

1) He'll be 58 years old when next season starts and his next job will be his big contract job and probably his last head coaching job in the NHL. He's looking at a roster which is full of both holes and free agents. There is more than a fair chance that the CBJ will be in full rebuild mode at this time next year. If he's looking to win a Stanley Cup, he'll likely have far better options than Columbus.

2) He's got his "I coached the CBJ" t shirt already.

3) He'll command at least Queneville money-$5.25 million per year. I suspect he'll seek $6 million over 6 years. I don't know if CBJ management would be inclined to pony up that kind of dough for a coach.

4) Jarmo Kekalainen. Jarmo's got a healthy ego on him. He seems like a "my way or the highway" type of guy. After Gallant's previous two unanticipated firings, I don't know if this is the personality type he'd like to work for. Also, Jarmo has yet to assemble a team which has made noise in the playoffs in his near decade here. Jarmo might find himself out of a job within a a year or two and why would Gallant want to be in a position of working for a GM who might want his own guy?

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

5) Jarmo Kekalainen. Jarmo's got a healthy ego on him. He seems like a "my way or the highway" type of guy. After Gallant's previous two unanticipated firings, I don't know if this is the personality type he'd like to work for. Add to the fact, the Jarmo has yet to assemble a team which has made noise in the playoffs in his near decade here. Jarmo might find himself out of a job within a a year or two and why would Gallant want to be in a position of working for a GM who might want his own guy?

if this were true I think Torts would be gone already. Torts was pretty clearly a JD hire. They might be able to coexist but the players Jarmo drafts are are not the type of players who excel in the Torts system. Jarmo will hire the guy he thinks is the right guy to coach his players. I don't think Jarmo will be gone in a year or 2 because there has not been a full opportunity to vet out if Jarmo's organizational path has been a failure or not. He just got out of JD's shadow last year.

 

[majormajor]

if this were true I think Torts would be gone already. Torts was pretty clearly a JD hire. They might be able to coexist but the players Jarmo drafts are are not the type of players who excel in the Torts system. Jarmo will hire the guy he thinks is the right guy to coach his players. I don't think Jarmo will be gone in a year or 2 because there has not been a full opportunity to vet out if Jarmo's organizational path has been a failure or not. He just got out of JD's shadow last year.

I think Torts is a Jarmo guy. He wasn't Jarmo's idea, but he is his style.

Jarmo has a lot more than a year or two of rope left. The roster is weaker because of the Panarin and PLD situations, but people around the league don't blame him for that.

Why I don't think think Gallant won't seriously consider the CBJ.

1) He'll be 58 years old when next season starts and his next job will be his big contract job and probably his last head coaching job in the NHL. He's looking at a roster which is full of both holes and free agents. There is more than a fair chance that the CBJ will be in full rebuild mode at this time next year. If he's looking to win a Stanley Cup, he'll likely have far better options than Columbus.

2) He's got his "I coached the CBJ" t shirt already.

3) He'll command at least Queneville money-$5.25 million per year. I suspect he'll seek $6 million over 6 years. I don't know if CBJ management would be inclined to pony up that kind of dough for a coach.

4) Jarmo Kekalainen. Jarmo's got a healthy ego on him. He seems like a "my way or the highway" type of guy. After Gallant's previous two unanticipated firings, I don't know if this is the personality type he'd like to work for. Also, Jarmo has yet to assemble a team which has made noise in the playoffs in his near decade here. Jarmo might find himself out of a job within a a year or two and why would Gallant want to be in a position of working for a GM who might want his own guy?

The #1 reason would probably be money. The Jackets have never paid a top tier coaches salary. Torts makes something like $2m per.

That and I could see Gallant looking at a mess of a roster and saying that it's not a great position for a coach to succeed in. Not that it would necessarily be harder to win than in Seattle, but it would be tough to win and harder to put your imprint on an established roster with a number of unworkable pieces.

Jarmo isn't going anywhere, sorry to disappoint you.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

I think Torts is a Jarmo guy. He wasn't Jarmo's idea, but he is his style.

Jarmo has a lot more than a year or two of rope left. The roster is weaker because of the Panarin and PLD situations, but people around the league don't blame him for that.



The #1 reason would probably be money. The Jackets have never paid a top tier coaches salary. Torts makes something like $2m per.

That and I could see Gallant looking at a mess of a roster and saying that it's not a great position for a coach to succeed in. Not that it would necessarily be harder to win than in Seattle, but it would be tough to win and harder to put your imprint on an established roster with a number of unworkable pieces.

Jarmo isn't going anywhere, sorry to disappoint you.

Then I think Jarmo needs to do some serious evaluation on coaching style because the players he is drafting aren't fitting the coaching mold. I do agree he really likes the accountability factor Torts brings along with the personality but I think the X's and O's aren't compatible.

 

[majormajor]

Then I think Jarmo needs to do some serious evaluation on coaching style because the players he is drafting aren't fitting the coaching mold. I do agree he really likes the accountability factor Torts brings along with the personality but I think the X's and O's aren't compatible.

I'm not sure if I see it that way.

Torts just needs guys who can play diligent positional hockey. Three of Jarmo's draftees are on the forward ranks right now, Stenlund, Texier, and Bjorkstrand. I'm not sure about Stenlund yet, but Tex and Bjorky play hard and smart.

Now if you look at the pro acquisitions there are some guys who obviously aren't fitting wonderfully.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

I'm not sure if I see it that way.

Torts just needs guys who can play diligent positional hockey. Three of Jarmo's draftees are on the forward ranks right now, Stenlund, Texier, and Bjorkstrand. I'm not sure about Stenlund yet, but Tex and Bjorky play hard and smart.

Now if you look at the pro acquisitions there are some guys who obviously aren't fitting wonderfully.

I think the 3 you mentioned are exactly who they were touted to be when drafted. I think the disconnect lies on high end scoring talent and forcing them to be players they aren't. Is that a drafting problem, a coaching problem, or a combination of the 2?

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Jarmo isn't going anywhere, sorry to disappoint you.

I'm glad that your CBJ sources have informed you of this

List of current NHL general managers - Wikipedia


Of the 32 NHL GMs-including Francis of Seattle-Jarmo is the 8th most senior having just started his 9th year as CBJ GM. The only GM who has as poor of a playoff record during this time is Bergevin of Montreal. Armstrong (STL) and Bowman (CHI) have won Cups. Poile (NSH), Murray (ANA), Wilson (SJ) and Cheveldayoff (WPG) have all had teams which have gone to the Conference Finals or Stanley Cup Finals.

The CBJ have not been a success-by any measure other than a very low one either on the ice (2 playoff series wins with one being a Qualifying Round along with no divisional finish above 3rd) or off the ice (low revenues) during Kekalainen's tenure. Unless McConnell simply doesn't care about winning or money, it would stand probable that Kekalainen's rope is getting shorter. I'd think that the one or two year time frame that I suggested would be a reasonable interpretation of his job status.

 

[cslebn]

You should already see the flip side of that. If we aren't the only team switching coaches then the best coaches available get to be pickier.

In any case, if Jarmo wants to he can go talk to whatever unemployed coach is out there. He could call Gallant tomorrow and ask him if he would step in if it came to that. That's how replacements are very often named the same day the previous coach is canned. They already did the legwork.

Generally with the league, you don't talk to unemployed coaches until you have a vacancy.

Back room conversations are never back room.

 

[Iron Balls McGinty]

Unless McConnell simply doesn't care about winning or money, it would stand probable that Kekalainen's rope is getting shorter. I'd think that the one or two year time frame that I suggested would be a reasonable interpretation of his job status.

Is a lifelong Bengals fan I can assure you that you can care about money and not winning.

Generally with the league, you don't talk to unemployed coaches until you have a vacancy.

Back room conversations are never back room.

Torts was lined up ready to go when Todd Richards got the boot.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

Is a lifelong Bengals fan I can assure you that you can care about money and not winning.

Are you saying the Mike Brown resembles your remark???

 

[KJ Dangler]

I'm not sure if I see it that way.

Torts just needs guys who can play diligent positional hockey. Three of Jarmo's draftees are on the forward ranks right now, Stenlund, Texier, and Bjorkstrand. I'm not sure about Stenlund yet, but Tex and Bjorky play hard and smart.

Now if you look at the pro acquisitions there are some guys who obviously aren't fitting wonderfully.

A good coach adapts to the personnel he has , gets the most out of their strengths , rather than trying to mold every player into a system player . You forget the nearly 2 yrs Bjork was jerked around , buried in the bench , called out in the media , etc .. he’s been one of the few skill players able to make it to other side . He’s still not remotely utilized in a proficient way that would enhance his strengths , most likely would flirt with 40 goals on a lot of teams . Torts has admitted on hockey and hounds , Panarin was given a pass by Torts , he was given a free pass in neutral zone was the exact quote from Torts . Yet here we are once again .. Domi has apparently forgot how to play NHL hockey .. Laine averaged over 3 shots per game with Winnipeg , he comes here , averaged a little over one shot per game . Where’s the offensive game planning ?

 

[majormajor]

A good coach adapts to the personnel he has , gets the most out of their strengths , rather than trying to mold every player into a system player . You forget the nearly 2 yrs Bjork was jerked around , buried in the bench , called out in the media , etc .. he’s been one of the few skill players able to make it to other side . He’s still not remotely utilized in a proficient way that would enhance his strengths , most likely would flirt with 40 goals on a lot of teams . Torts has admitted on hockey and hounds , Panarin was given a pass by Torts , he was given a free pass in neutral zone was the exact quote from Torts . Yet here we are once again .. Domi has apparently forgot how to play NHL hockey .. Laine averaged over 3 shots per game with Winnipeg , he comes here , averaged a little over one shot per game . Where’s the offensive game planning ?

You know why Panarin was given a pass? Because he was better at transitioning the puck himself than any system could be. Domi and Laine aren't in that category. It's not Torts making them turn the puck over at the blueline doing some hopeless dangle.

I do think things need to change to get Laine's shot rate up but it is more in the linemates. He needs better possession and passing linemates (not Atkinson) so he can get the puck more. As far as systems go the only thing Paul Maurice was doing in Winnipeg was telling his guys to dump and chase more, which they didn't do that often. Laine had more shots because he was playing with better transition guys than himself like Ehlers or Scheifele. He always had at least one of them carrying the puck. Laine himself wasn't the one doing it, and he probably shouldn't be asked to be that guy here either. Domi was a strong transition player in Montreal, I'll give him that, but I can't see where the system is stopping him from doing that. The off-puck stuff is where Torts and Domi intersect (badly), Domi should be able to carry the puck in if he's capable of doing that, he just hasn't so far been good at it here.

 

[majormajor]

Generally with the league, you don't talk to unemployed coaches until you have a vacancy.

Back room conversations are never back room.

I'm not sure if that is generally true. We announced Richards out and Torts in at the same time, obviously they had talked to Torts before that moment. Gallant was also fired and replaced by DeBoer at the same time.

 

[majormajor]

I think the 3 you mentioned are exactly who they were touted to be when drafted. I think the disconnect lies on high end scoring talent and forcing them to be players they aren't. Is that a drafting problem, a coaching problem, or a combination of the 2?

A lot depends on whether you blame Jarmo for Panarin and PLD leaving. This team has a high end talent problem but it wouldn't have that issue if the topline was Panarin-Dubois-Bjorkstrand. With Werenski and Jones behind them that would have given the Jackets a better 5 man unit than most teams.

 

[Monk]

This team has a high end talent problem but it wouldn't have that issue if the topline was Panarin-Dubois-Bjorkstrand.

Me this season

 

[majormajor]

I'm glad that your CBJ sources have informed you of this

List of current NHL general managers - Wikipedia


Of the 32 NHL GMs-including Francis of Seattle-Jarmo is the 8th most senior having just started his 9th year as CBJ GM. The only GM who has as poor of a playoff record during this time is Bergevin of Montreal. Armstrong (STL) and Bowman (CHI) have won Cups. Poile (NSH), Murray (ANA), Wilson (SJ) and Cheveldayoff (WPG) have all had teams which have gone to the Conference Finals or Stanley Cup Finals.

The CBJ have not been a success-by any measure other than a very low one either on the ice (2 playoff series wins with one being a Qualifying Round along with no divisional finish above 3rd) or off the ice (low revenues) during Kekalainen's tenure. Unless McConnell simply doesn't care about winning or money, it would stand probable that Kekalainen's rope is getting shorter. I'd think that the one or two year time frame that I suggested would be a reasonable interpretation of his job status.

The Jackets have been top ten in points and wins over the last five years.

I don't know what McConnell thinks about anything but Jarmo would get hired in a hurry if he was ditched here. He is widely admired around the league for his ballsy moves and people don't blame him for the Panarin and PLD situations. They think he's done well with his hand.

 

[Jovavic]

Torts was also still employed by Vancouver so they had to get permission to even talk to him.

I give Jarmo a pass on the "not finishing above third in the division" thing, they were fifth in the league one year but of course two of the four teams to have more points were in the division.