Fire Deboer

[PattyLafontaine]

Burns disagrees with that assessment...

Burns is an alien, pure Wookie.

 

[STL Shark]

I'll be honest in having some Sutter grit and defend-your-honor nostalgia.

But IMO physicality wasn't their biggest issue this season. The lack of a consistent backup plan to the aggressive cycle/low/high offense was. They flashed some promising audibles, but always settled for more chips, stretch passes, and predictable point shots. Whether this is due to uncreative coaching, players going rogue, or needing to balancing skill sets/capabilities on the roster is something that will hopefully be correctly determined by Wilson. (Personally, I think it's primarily a coaching issue, so I find myself raging in this thread.)

It was amazing to see how much better the Blues moved in the OZ without the puck than we did. Our D are never a threat to walk down from the blue line unless they’re on the boards while they were switching and crossing paths every shift and getting slot scoring chances. That’s a system issue to me.

I will say it’ll be nice to have Boughner back most likely and I’d be fine keeping Barr to coach the forwards. Spott just needs to be launched into outer space and never come back as he’s utterly useless.

 

[Lebanezer]

It was amazing to see how much better the Blues moved in the OZ without the puck than we did. Our D are never a threat to walk down from the blue line unless they’re on the boards while they were switching and crossing paths every shift and getting slot scoring chances. That’s a system issue to me.

I will say it’ll be nice to have Boughner back most likely and I’d be fine keeping Barr to coach the forwards. Spott just needs to be launched into outer space and never come back as he’s utterly useless.

The system was such a mess this past year and a half.

 

[Paka Ono]

For those taking the stance, that the coach doesn't have that much influence, how do they explain Berube/Blues' success?

Yeo is fired and the team is in last place, Berube comes in and now they are going to the SC Finals.

 

[Alwalys]

For those taking the stance, that the coach doesn't have that much influence, how do they explain Berube/Blues' success?

Yeo is fired and the team is in last place, Berube comes in and now they are going to the SC Finals.

dead cat bounce that caught more air than usual
the new coach effect is real. even the oilers had it this year.

that said it's 100% on the hot goalie. the blues offense sucks.

 

[The McMafia]

I think Deboer has been a good coach since he's been with the Sharks but it's in the team's best interest at this time to move forward with another HC. The whole season result, despite the run to the conference final, doesn't look very good considering the construction of the roster.

The biggest issue I've ever had with Deboer is not his lineup decisions, but his allotment of ice time, particularly in the regular season where there's not much reason to run your top players into the ground. That absolutely can't continue.

We're not going to have any immediate young talents come into the organization over the next 4 years - Merkley is the closest but is still a project - so it would be best to have a mindset that prioritizes guiding the youth in the org during the regular season. With the overall parity in the league, especially in the west, the top level guys on the team are good enough to get the team into the show. Once you're in there, hopefully you have molded the pieces with your off-ice and on-ice leaders that you can use to create match up problems.

 

[Nighthock]

He got to the conference finals with a banged up squad. Not a chance DW lets him go.

Always building a winner on paper... effective until a slight breeze. We're screwed as a fanbase until we clean house - inside and out.

 

[OrrNumber4]

Have to remind everyone that DeBoer does get massive credit for keeping Jones in against Vegas. Coaches failing conventionally would have put Dell in just to cover themselves. DeBoer takes a massive risk playing Jones...I like to see people being bold, and doubly like it when it pays off.

 

[tealzamboni]

I think Deboer has been a good coach since he's been with the Sharks but it's in the team's best interest at this time to move forward with another HC. The whole season result, despite the run to the conference final, doesn't look very good considering the construction of the roster.

The biggest issue I've ever had with Deboer is not his lineup decisions, but his allotment of ice time, particularly in the regular season where there's not much reason to run your top players into the ground. That absolutely can't continue.

We're not going to have any immediate young talents come into the organization over the next 4 years - Merkley is the closest but is still a project - so it would be best to have a mindset that prioritizes guiding the youth in the org during the regular season. With the overall parity in the league, especially in the west, the top level guys on the team are good enough to get the team into the show. Once you're in there, hopefully you have molded the pieces with your off-ice and on-ice leaders that you can use to create match up problems.

I feel like there was/is plenty of room to mold their key players as well. This season seemed like a exercise in getting the players to play fast like Vegas and use low-to-high in the attacking zone. It wasn't until the third period of the 102nd game that they started employing a high triangle. I wish those kind of adjustments were part of the standard arsenal, so that the Sharks can dictate the flow of the game. They certainly had the talent to make it work.

 

[tealzamboni]

Have to remind everyone that DeBoer does get massive credit for keeping Jones in against Vegas. Coaches failing conventionally would have put Dell in just to cover themselves. DeBoer takes a massive risk playing Jones...I like to see people being bold, and doubly like it when it pays off.

IIRC he also tightened up the defense in games 5-7. I thought it was a good move to fall back on defense, protect the net, and have a coordinated attack.
I'm not sure why he abandoned that afterwards. Even with the injuries, I thought they were too spread too thin against the Avs and Blues.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

PDB is definitely not without his warts and I was on the fire him and hire Quenelle bandwagon back in December... but now after he turned the team around and the playoffs he just coached with a broken squad. He took the worst defensive team in the league to the conference final while missing the teams leading goal scorer for almost the entire 2nd round. Also had EK Liability on the back end and who knows what else injury wise. Tell me you can guarantee your replacement can do a better job and I'm there with you. I'm not up for trying some unknown coach who's on his first NHL HC job like TMac was. Given some talent, depth and health at least part of the way PDB took the team to the SCF and the CF in 4 years. Ask that coach in Tampa how his allstar team is doing on the golf course after 4 games... Sorry but you all are crazy if you think change for the sake of change is the way to go.

 

[Internazionale]

Have to remind everyone that DeBoer does get massive credit for keeping Jones in against Vegas. Coaches failing conventionally would have put Dell in just to cover themselves. DeBoer takes a massive risk playing Jones...I like to see people being bold, and doubly like it when it pays off.

Jones is making 5.75 Million. It would look really bad benching the starter at that amount of money.

 

[Mafoofoo]

PDB is definitely not without his warts and I was on the fire him and hire Quenelle bandwagon back in December... but now after he turned the team around and the playoffs he just coached with a broken squad. He took the worst defensive team in the league to the conference final while missing the teams leading goal scorer for almost the entire 2nd round. Also had EK Liability on the back end and who knows what else injury wise. Tell me you can guarantee your replacement can do a better job and I'm there with you. I'm not up for trying some unknown coach who's on his first NHL HC job like TMac was. Given some talent, depth and health at least part of the way PDB took the team to the SCF and the CF in 4 years. Ask that coach in Tampa how his allstar team is doing on the golf course after 4 games... Sorry but you all are crazy if you think change for the sake of change is the way to go.

Ok fine. But can you agree that Spott needs to be shot off into the sun?

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

Ok fine. But can you agree that Spott needs to be shot off into the sun?

I said as much in an earlier post.

EDIT: Might have been in response on another thread. These bitch fest about PDB are all starting to run together...

 

[Mafoofoo]

I said as much in an earlier post.

Fair enough. My bad.

 

[tealzamboni]

PDB is definitely not without his warts and I was on the fire him and hire Quenelle bandwagon back in December... but now after he turned the team around and the playoffs he just coached with a broken squad. He took the worst defensive team in the league to the conference final while missing the teams leading goal scorer for almost the entire 2nd round. Also had EK Liability on the back end and who knows what else injury wise. Tell me you can guarantee your replacement can do a better job and I'm there with you. I'm not up for trying some unknown coach who's on his first NHL HC job like TMac was. Given some talent, depth and health at least part of the way PDB took the team to the SCF and the CF in 4 years. Ask that coach in Tampa how his allstar team is doing on the golf course after 4 games... Sorry but you all are crazy if you think change for the sake of change is the way to go.

My knee jerk reaction is to let him go simply due to consistent issues and lack of adjustments. IMO something has to give when such a talented roster has trouble with some seemingly simple changes.

But I do agree that:
1. Who else is available?

I would've loved for them to go after Q or Trotz, but that ship sailed. I doubt Sutter is available and not sure he necessarily fixes their in-game, tactical issues. Some finesse might be required there. But a young whiz coach may have to learn to deal with the veteran players. Those two factors kind of narrows down the list.

Maybe the best criteria is someone who has a better in game feel than PDB. I don't know if such a candidate exists. I'll throw out Paul MacLean only because he won a Jack Adams and has coached EK65. I'm just guessing, so not sure how competitive of a hire that'd be.

If there aren't competitive HC candidates, then maybe PDB needs a stronger staff that can adjust quicker.​

2. What all did he really have to deal with?

The roster was kind of diverse in skill set. Pavs and Jumbo are slow, but experienced. Burns and EK65 are top notch D. Meier, Hertl, Couture, and Kane have a bit a size + speed + skill. Vlasic and Braun are steady. Ryan and Heed can move. Jones is not remarkable, but can stop what he sees. So, I'm sure it took a lot of work coming up with a system that can use all of those guys. And equally more work to get everyone to buy in and execute. And I'm sure it was harder after injuries.

But, I'm not sure that it was impossible for him to make and keep adjustments. He did shake up the defense toward the end with Vegas. And in game 6, he tried copying the Blues offense. He was just late to adjust and quick to toss it out afterwards. It's as if he didn't watch the tape and stubbornly fell back on "the system." That or his staff is heavily into analytics.​

My main concern with keeping PDB is whether he can continue growing as a coach. He's been lucky to have a couple chances to go far and fail. And he's shown some ability to shake things up in the offseason. But, I worry that he's reached his peak. He went up against Vegas last season and it seemed to rock his coaching beliefs. He tried again this year and Gallant, Bednar, and Berube outcoached him. All PDB could do was hang onto the system and hope for the best.

Maybe a stronger staff and a gentle hand from Darryl Sutter (special advisor to the GM ) can get him to manage games better. I'm skeptical, but that's all I can hope for if they are doubling down on him next year . . .

 

[Dicdonya]

PDB is definitely not without his warts and I was on the fire him and hire Quenelle bandwagon back in December... but now after he turned the team around and the playoffs he just coached with a broken squad. He took the worst defensive team in the league to the conference final while missing the teams leading goal scorer for almost the entire 2nd round. Also had EK Liability on the back end and who knows what else injury wise. Tell me you can guarantee your replacement can do a better job and I'm there with you. I'm not up for trying some unknown coach who's on his first NHL HC job like TMac was. Given some talent, depth and health at least part of the way PDB took the team to the SCF and the CF in 4 years. Ask that coach in Tampa how his allstar team is doing on the golf course after 4 games... Sorry but you all are crazy if you think change for the sake of change is the way to go.

The only question I have is why was this the worst defensive team in the league?

Before the year, it was largely accepted that SJ had a top 3 defense in the league if not the best on paper.

Even if we never got Karlsson, we still had a top 10 defense on paper.

You give credit to Deboer for bringing the worst defensive team to WCF, but are you just ignoring that he also was the coach of the worst defensive team in the league, that had a stacked D core?

Also turned the team around? We sucked at the start and end of this year, if not for a good stretch in the middle of the year and a weak western conference, we don’t even make the playoffs.

The failure of the team on defense, with the players he had available is reason enough to fire him, add on shit personnel choices, and terrible Toi management among other things, and there’s no reason to categorize firing Deboer as change for the sake of change.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

The only question I have is why was this the worst defensive team in the league?

Before the year, it was largely accepted that SJ had a top 3 defense in the league if not the best on paper.

Even if we never got Karlsson, we still had a top 10 defense on paper.

You give credit to Deboer for bringing the worst defensive team to WCF, but are you just ignoring that he also was the coach of the worst defensive team in the league, that had a stacked D core?

Also turned the team around? We sucked at the start and end of this year, if not for a good stretch in the middle of the year and a weak western conference, we don’t even make the playoffs.

The failure of the team on defense, with the players he had available is reason enough to fire him, add on **** personnel choices, and terrible Toi management among other things, and there’s no reason to categorize firing Deboer as change for the sake of change.

2 of their best 3 d-men seemed to let in a GAA every time they stepped on the ice in the first half of the season. Yes firing a coach who took a team to the final 4 is change because you're upset. Nothing more. I'm as disappointed as anyone but I've been watching long enough to realize how difficult it is for these teams to make it even this far.

 

[Dicdonya]

2 of their best 3 d-men seemed to let in a GAA overtime they stepped on the ice in the first half of the season. Yes firing a coach who took a team to the final 4 is change because you're upset. Nothing more. I'm as disappointed as anyone but I've been watching long enough to realize how difficult it is for these teams to make it even this far.

Are you trying to imply our defense actually improved in the second half of the season? Sorry to break it to you, but it sucked the entire year. The only thing that changed was we outscored our terrible defense enough to be a playoff team in a weak division.

I don’t want Deboer fired because I’m upset we just lost, I want him fired because I think he sucks, and those feelings started before this year.

The fact that this team, loaded as it is, was absolute garbage defensively ALL year is unacceptable. Squeaking into a WCF does not undo that fact for me.

 

[Doctor Soraluce]

Are you trying to imply our defense actually improved in the second half of the season? Sorry to break it to you, but it sucked the entire year. The only thing that changed was we outscored our terrible defense enough to be a playoff team in a weak division.

I don’t want Deboer fired because I’m upset we just lost, I want him fired because I think he sucks, and those feelings started before this year.

The fact that this team, loaded as it is, was absolute garbage defensively ALL year is unacceptable. Squeaking into a WCF does not undo that fact for me.

So you don't think that Vlassics game improved in the 2nd half? That EK65 got better in January until he was injured? You're the only one...

GAA was a combination of the goalies sucking and the D playing loosely for the sake of offense.

 

[Dicdonya]

So you don't think that Vlassics game improved in the 2nd half? That EK65 got better in January until he was injured? You're the only one...

GAA was a combination of the goalies sucking and the D playing loosely for the sake of offense.

Vlasic, and Karlsson individually playing better does not mean Deboer caused it. Especially when these two things occurred at very different times. I might agree Deboer caused it if there was some sudden change in their play around the same time, coinciding with some noticeable change in the defensive coverage or scheme.

Two superstar players playing better randomly, at different times though? Nah not gunna give Deboer credit for that when there was no other noticeable change on the team.

Your last sentence is exactly my problem, we had a stacked D, and we played shitty, dangerous defense, to get offense from the blue line that only has two players really capable of creating offense, both of whom don’t need that kind of system to create offense in the first place because they are offensive juggernauts.

So Deboer decided to play a hyper aggressive system that does not compliment most of our defenders, and many of our forwards, and none of our goalies, to accentuate the offense of two players who don’t even need the help generating points.

In fact, the only reason we even got to the WCF was because he abandoned that shit system in favor of a more defensive one for game 5-7 against Vegas, which magically (not really since I’d been saying it all freaking year) helped Jones remove his head from his butt and start making saves, while still being able to score goals because we have tons of offensive talent.

So I give Deboer credit for making that change, but that’s about it.

 

[Celly4Celebrini]

For those taking the stance, that the coach doesn't have that much influence, how do they explain Berube/Blues' success?

Yeo is fired and the team is in last place, Berube comes in and now they are going to the SC Finals.

Binninngton comes up and replaces Allen, who had a sub 900 sv percentage before that

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

Vlasic, and Karlsson individually playing better does not mean Deboer caused it. Especially when these two things occurred at very different times. I might agree Deboer caused it if there was some sudden change in their play around the same time, coinciding with some noticeable change in the defensive coverage or scheme.

Two superstar players playing better randomly, at different times though? Nah not gunna give Deboer credit for that when there was no other noticeable change on the team.

Your last sentence is exactly my problem, we had a stacked D, and we played ****ty, dangerous defense, to get offense from the blue line that only has two players really capable of creating offense, both of whom don’t need that kind of system to create offense in the first place because they are offensive juggernauts.

So Deboer decided to play a hyper aggressive system that does not compliment most of our defenders, and many of our forwards, and none of our goalies, to accentuate the offense of two players who don’t even need the help generating points.

In fact, the only reason we even got to the WCF was because he abandoned that **** system in favor of a more defensive one for game 5-7 against Vegas, which magically (not really since I’d been saying it all freaking year) helped Jones remove his head from his butt and start making saves, while still being able to score goals because we have tons of offensive talent.

So I give Deboer credit for making that change, but that’s about it.

Been saying that all season long. This team has been winning games solely on the basis of individual efforts of the insane talent on the roster. The coaching has been a detriment if anything. The PP sucks and the adjustments by PDB are non-existent or 2 steps behind the opponents.

The style that used to work for us 2 years back was quick short passes to get out of the zone. This year, they have been relying way too much on long home run passes. We played 3 different types of teams these playoffs.

Vegas: Fast and physical. Medium skill. We struggled against them even though we did win the series.
Colorado: Fast and high top level skill. Struggled against them in parts too.
St. Louis: Slow and medium skill. We struggled against them too.

So, honestly, PDB struggled against all types of teams. Individual efforts from Couture, Burns, etc. is what got us through.

 

[PattyLafontaine]

Have to remind everyone that DeBoer does get massive credit for keeping Jones in against Vegas. Coaches failing conventionally would have put Dell in just to cover themselves. DeBoer takes a massive risk playing Jones...I like to see people being bold, and doubly like it when it pays off.

Not really, Dell was crap this year as well. So I’m not sure how much credit you can waive around for picking Jones down 3-1.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

Not really, Dell was crap this year as well. So I’m not sure how much credit you can waive around for picking Jones down 3-1.

Bingo.

Dell did nothing to make us comfortable about the backup goalie situation through the season. Main reason quite a few people were upset that DW was not able to acquire a backup goalie upgrade at the TDL.