Fill in the blank: McDavid is the best offensive player since _______

[Midnight Judges]

And neither has McDavid. We should be comparing them at the same age.

Fair enough.

It turns out they're pretty damn close in that regard. Both players with 1 Hart, 2 Pearsons, and 2 Art Rosses by now. Lemieux had led the NHL in goals twice though so I think he's got an edge there. Then again today's international NHL has far superior competition to Lemieux's 80% Canadian NHL.

 

[authentic]

Lemieux could not sustain it though.

Agreed.

 

[authentic]

Isn't this also an argument for why McDavid shouldn't be put above Jagr?

I never realized how insanely productive Jagr was post-Lemieux comeback. He had 84 points in 46 games from Lemieux's first game in 2000-2001, which is near identical to what McDavid has done this year. You can point out that Jagr played with Lemieux while McDavid "only" plays with Draisaitl, but scoring this year is decently up from 2000-2001.

It's really impressive that McDavid's current season aligns so evenly with the best that guys like Ovechkin, Crosby and Jagr put up, but I'm not really seeing a justification for ranking McDavid over any of those other 3. Frankly I think the argument for any one of them over the other 3 is pretty flimsy.

Yeah it is. I don't think it's clear that he's above Jagr as an offensive player, or even equal. Jagr's possession game was insanely good back then, even in his late 30s and early 40s he had high corsi when it started being tracked. The thing is though, as time goes on since Gretzky, every player from the next generation dominated less when you adjust the stats, despite the eye test favouring the more recent player every time (IMO anyway). Perhaps it's just getting progressively harder to standout.

 

[authentic]

Actually just looking at the rest of the top scorers right now McDavid is even further ahead than I realized. It's a little different since not everyone is playing the same teams this season, although I don't believe his overall dominance would decrease much. Does anyone know what the rest of the top 10-20 scorers looked like when Ovechkin had 88 in 52 and Crosby had 66 in 41? Or the 95 in 56 from Crosby's 2006-07?

 

[Albatros]

No he didn't, the Penguins became terrible the season after Jagr left. They were a playoff team in every other year he was here.

They were a playoff team almost solely thanks to Jágr, and his departure was about the sole reason why they were no longer.

Penguins scoring in his best season:

Jágr 127
Straka 83
Titov 56
Kovalev 46
Lang 44
Miller 42
Hrdina 42
Hatcher 38
Barnes 32
Brown 24

Don't tell me that team has any chance of making the playoffs without Jágr.

 

[Midnight Judges]

JMO, but when two players have a similar PPG, but one player has a significantly higher GPG, the GPG is an important distinction.

Ovie's peak adjusted PPG was .10 higher than what McDavid is doing this season, but Ovie's peak adjusted GPG is almost 50% higher. That isn't easy to do!

 

[snipes]

Up to 84 points in 47 games now. Just lapping the field.

23 points more than 3rd place MacKinnon. 17 points higher than Draisaitl in 2nd place.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Lemieux could not sustain it though.

A 35 year old lemieux or are we talking 199 point lemieux. I might delete my account according to your answer.

 

[McFlash97]

Crosby at his peak
65 points in 39 gp 1.67 ppg before concussion
56 points in 35 gp 1.60 ppg before broken jaw.

Now adjust those numbers into the north division. It be just as ridiculous

Awww..someone is scrambling for answers. How can David be at 84 points in 47 games.

Love the backtracking and what's ifs being pushed as narratives.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Awww..someone is scrambling for answers. How can David be at 84 points in 47 games.

Love the backtracking and what's ifs being pushed as narratives.

Not really. What crosby has done is what mcdavid aspires to achieve. I'm not that daft to know that a puck to the jaw is the reason sid doesn't have more awards

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

And I'm not oblivious to the fact it took 25 days for Crosby to be passed in the scoring race

 

[McFlash97]

Not really. What crosby has done is what mcdavid aspires to achieve. I'm not that daft to know that a puck to the jaw is the reason sid doesn't have more awards

I respect Crosby for his accolades and cups and being one of the top 10 players of all time. It's not his time anymore. There is always someone better .. in his case that better came sooner then later.

If McDavid wins a cup. This conversation is over and done.

 

[Brucelenok]

I feel like McDavid is currently performing on the same level as 2010 Ovi, so I'm kinda confused for why people are voting Lemieux here. Lemieux took 3 years off from the league and came back as a 35 year old, only to absolutely tear the league a new asshole. What McDavid is doing right now is right in line with peak Ovi, not anything even close to what Lemieux did.



No he didn't, the Penguins became terrible the season after Jagr left. They were a playoff team in every other year he was here.

It is close, but AS OF RIGHT NOW it is still pretty clearly Ovy. Pre-Olympic Ovy was the best player since Mario IMO. 88 points in 52 games while playing in a lower scorer era than McDavid and he destroyed him in goals department as well while destroying everything on his way.

 

[nowhereman]

I can't wait to see how fast people backtrack on some of their takes, when McDavid is out of the North Division soon. Crosby, OV and Jagr were better, IMO.

 

[bobholly39]

A 35 year old lemieux or are we talking 199 point lemieux. I might delete my account according to your answer.

Pretty sure he meant 35 year old Lemieux.

To me 35 year old Lemieux > McDavid today - he just wasn't able to sustain it long-term I agree. I assume injuries were still a big part of that, but age eventually catches up too.

I can't wait to see how fast people backtrack on some of their takes, when McDavid is out of the North Division soon. Crosby, OV and Jagr were better, IMO.

I don't know about that. McDavid is an incredible talent. All 4 are to be honest. I wouldn't be shocked in the least to see McDavid repeat next year.

To me this is more about putting this current season into context. It doesn't have "no merit" due to divisional play, but it probably needs to be adjusted slightly due to higher scoring year, and also his large split in scoring pace from facing lower teams (ott/cal) vs the other 4.

Will McDavid have an 82 game season that is better than any of Jagr/Crosby/Ovy's best in the future? He certainly might - he's talented enough to. We'll just have to see if he manages to. For now - he's clearly #4 for full 82 game seasons though.

As to whether this partial season of his is better than Crosby's 2011 - that's closer, but I'd still argue no, it's slightly behind. He keeps scoring 3 points a game every night, I might change my mind soon though lol

 

[BraveCanadian]

Jagr for now.. maybe Lemieux if he can keep up this kind of pace in a whole season.

 

[TopShelfYzerman]

Best since Jagr won four straight Art Ross in the dead puck era 97/98 to 00/01

Jagr's prime was during the years Lemieux battled cancer. Had he been competing with Lemieux he'd most likely have 0 Art Rosses. Pittsburgh was giving both star players approximately 6-8 mins on the PP from what I can gather and guesstimate based on his 2000-2001 PP ice time then looking at past PP points.
Jagr benefitted from being in the right place at the right time.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Jagr's prime was during the years Lemieux battled cancer. Had he been competing with Lemieux he'd most likely have 0 Art Rosses. Pittsburgh was giving both star players approximately 6-8 mins on the PP from what I can gather and guesstimate based on his 2000-2001 PP ice time then looking at past PP points.
Jagr benefitted from being in the right place at the right time.

Not sure I quite agree with that. By 96-97 Jagr and Lemieux were just about even. Jagr was better when Lemieux came back in 00-01. (84 points to 76 points from the game Mario returned.) Had Lemieux not retired or missed games Jagr would have lost his 94-95 art ross, but imo he still wins the four he won from 97-98 to 00-01.

 

[psycat]

Jagr's prime was during the years Lemieux battled cancer. Had he been competing with Lemieux he'd most likely have 0 Art Rosses. Pittsburgh was giving both star players approximately 6-8 mins on the PP from what I can gather and guesstimate based on his 2000-2001 PP ice time then looking at past PP points.
Jagr benefitted from being in the right place at the right time.

I am very confident in arguing that Jagr played in the totally wrong era as far as all time ranking is concerned he directly trailed peak Gretzky and coexisted with peak Lemieux, these 2 made him look pedestrian. If he played in any other era you would hear these stupid "adjustment arguments" etc. Also he proved in his year(s) with the Rangers that he could most certainly get it done anyway.

Now of course most people are not as ridiculous as you are and try to diminish him by bringing up that he would lose his scoring titles to a healthy Lemieux(he most certainly would but it's not like McDavid would stand a chance either) but just the fact that he went up vs #66 and #99 makes him look more human than he was. Conversely if you removed those two from history he would truly stand out.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

lemieux

 

[TopShelfYzerman]

Not sure I quite agree with that. By 96-97 Jagr and Lemieux were just about even. Jagr was better when Lemieux came back in 00-01. (84 points to 76 points from the game Mario returned.) Had Lemieux not retired or missed games Jagr would have lost his 94-95 art ross, but imo he still wins the four he won from 97-98 to 00-01.

Lemeiux returning from chemotheraphy I would 100% agree, but we are assuming Lemieux didnt just battle a life ending cancer. In 95 ' Jagr won vs Lindros due to more goals, but had 2 more games played. What is your reasoning for Jagr beating Lemieux (who is the 2nd best scorer) when Lemieux 1-upped him in ppg every season before that?

 

[TopShelfYzerman]

I am very confident in arguing that Jagr played in the totally wrong era as far as all time ranking is concerned he directly trailed peak Gretzky and coexisted with peak Lemieux, these 2 made him look pedestrian. If he played in any other era you would hear these stupid "adjustment arguments" etc. Also he proved in his year(s) with the Rangers that he could most certainly get it done anyway.

Now of course most people are not as ridiculous as you are and try to diminish him by bringing up that he would lose his scoring titles to a healthy Lemieux(he most certainly would but it's not like McDavid would stand a chance either) but just the fact that he went up vs #66 and #99 makes him look more human than he was. Conversely if you removed those two from history he would truly stand out.

You can pick and choose arguments, but you cant pick and choose reality, Lemieux would most likely have taken away 4-5 of Jagr's Rosses. And because he didnt, Jagr is propped as a top 5-7 forward, I dont think he is.

 

[SillyRabbit]

Jagr sure is getting underrated around here.

In 1998/99 he won the Art Ross with 127 points in the middle of the dead puck era.

His linemates, Kip Miller and Jan Hrdina had 42 points each (yes they played the full season).

He scored 85 more points than the second closest player on his line.

The next four highest scorers in the league? Selanne and Kariya from Anaheim, and Forsberg and Sakic from Colorado.

Jagr had no superstar to play with like they did, but he still won the Art Ross by 20 points over second place.

Jagr was a generational offensive talent.

 

[TopShelfYzerman]

JMO, but when two players have a similar PPG, but one player has a significantly higher GPG, the GPG is an important distinction.

Ovie's peak adjusted PPG was .10 higher than what McDavid is doing this season, but Ovie's peak adjusted GPG is almost 50% higher. That isn't easy to do!

how do scoring rates look during OVs best vs this years.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

Lemeiux returning from chemotheraphy I would 100% agree, but we are assuming Lemieux didnt just battle a life ending cancer. In 95 ' Jagr won vs Lindros due to more goals, but had 2 more games played. What is your reasoning for Jagr beating Lemieux (who is the 2nd best scorer) when Lemieux 1-upped him in ppg every season before that?

Just from watching the games. Lemieux was struggling in 96-97 until Jagr and Francis were put on his line. Jagr had significantly closed the gap that year and was poised to pass him the next season imo. And in 00-01 as amazing as Lemieux was Jagr was the clear driver of that line and was outperforming him.

It's certainly possible Lemieux takes another of Jagr's art rosses but it's fair to say Jagr's art rosses were deserved.

Otherwise do we start saying Gretzky didn't deserve all of his? Because starting in 1988 the only time Gretzky won an art ross was if Lemieux was injured.