FaZe Clan is taking over

[Rodgerwilco]

I think that there's some embarrassment at the thought that their "job" is playing video games competitively, and framing it as though they're athletes playing a sport makes it less embarrassing. It's sort of like how women call themselves "dancers" or "cam girls" instead "strippers," IMO. I'm not one to embarrass or judge people for what they do for money, but I'm not necessarily going to go along with how they justify it to themselves, either.

I actually get the opposite sense. To me it seems there’s more of a push from fans of traditional sports trying desperately to Gatekeep the title or definition of “sports”, so as not to let the ‘gamer nerds’ be on their perceived level.

 

[PK Cronin]

I think it really just boils down to the opinion of what constitutes “physical prowess”. I think the physical skills that high level professional esports players exhibit (manual precision, reaction time, and hand-eye coordination) at such a high level are ABSOLUTELY examples of physical prowess. These are highly trained physical actions that the players are Displaying.

I very strongly disagree that what separates an esports professional from anyone else is “little to nothing to do with physical prowess”. There are some people who, no matter how much they train, will never have the physical capabilities to reach the level of top esports players. They just don’t have the physical skills (dexterity, reaction time, or coordination. Just like someone could train for 12 hours a day on the links and never become a pro golfer.

I don’t get why you’re limiting your definition of “physical prowess” to be synonymous with “athleticism”. I think you’re discounting the actual physical skill required to compete in esports professionally. These guys aren’t just dudes who played games a lot. They have better physical mechanics and/or mental processing than the average joe. That counts as physical prowess to me.

As I mentioned, there are many activities a person can partake in that require precision, reaction time, hand-eye coordination, etc. and they are not sports. Of course there are people who couldn't become top esports players if they trained all the time, but I couldn't become a 3 star Michelin chef, the next Picasso, or a great ice sculptor given the time either. The difficultly of the task doesn't make something a sport or not. I think you're conflating physical prowess with just doing anything that's physical. These guys are legitimately just moving their hands or fingers, albeit fast and with precision, but that's all they're doing on the physical side of things. Is speed typing a sport? You'd have to read the letters or words, then type them with precision faster than someone else, do you think that should count too? I'm not trying to mock esports or anything either, I just think the simplified definition opens the door for all sorts of ridiculous things to be considered a sport.

I'm equating physical prowess to athleticism because they're very similar. Mental processing is the opposite of physical prowess and I'd argue that it's the most important skill for esports. Otherwise physical mechanics you're describing is pressing a button very quickly on a very precision location on a screen, that's it. There's no running, jumping, strength, muscle, cardio, endurance, etc. that is connected to traditional sports.

It's fine if you want to consider an esports player as an athlete, but I never will.

I actually get the opposite sense. To me it seems there’s more of a push from fans of traditional sports trying desperately to Gatekeep the title or definition of “sports”, so as not to let the ‘gamer nerds’ be on their perceived level.

Why does esports need to be bundled with traditional sports, why can't it be it's own thing? As I mentioned earlier, I'm a big fan of StarCraft and used to watch GSL and MLG tournaments on the regular. There's nothing wrong with it and what those people are able to do is amazing.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

I actually get the opposite sense. To me it seems there’s more of a push from fans of traditional sports trying desperately to Gatekeep the title or definition of “sports”, so as not to let the ‘gamer nerds’ be on their perceived level.

There's plenty of us that like both and don't see much overlap. The what is and isn't a sport isn't a new debate, nor is it something that's ever going to be settled. Chess has been treated as a sport at various times/in certain cultures for the same basic reasons. I groan at the concept of bowling being treated like a sport, but it has enough of an audience to be semi-regularly televised for decades. f***ing poker. Hell, I've lost count of how many times I've seen people refuse to acknowledge soccer as a sport because of a lack of contact.

It's really more of a philosophical debate than a set of rules and guidelines.

 

[Osprey]

I think it really just boils down to the opinion of what constitutes “physical prowess”. I think the physical skills that high level professional esports players exhibit (manual precision, reaction time, and hand-eye coordination) at such a high level are ABSOLUTELY examples of physical prowess. These are highly trained physical actions that the players are Displaying.

The same could be said for speed cubing, or solving Rubik's Cubes in seconds, often while blindfolded. That requires manual precision, reaction time and hand-eye coordination (or hand-mind's-eye coordination when blind). I can't imagine that being made an Olympic sport any time soon, though. That's arguably even more sedentary than game playing because you're literally just standing there, not even moving your eyeballs.

What I think matters is not strictly the presence or lack of physical skills, but how they compare to the mental skills required. In the case of speed cubing, the real skill is the memorization of patterns. In general, in competitive gaming, the real skill is the memorization of strategies. For example, in StarCraft, it's knowing the optimal assignment of drones and construction of buildings and units so that you can rush your enemy while he's vulnerable because he's not as fast as you. When the skill required is more mental than physical, I have a hard time considering it a sport.

I actually get the opposite sense. To me it seems there’s more of a push from fans of traditional sports trying desperately to Gatekeep the title or definition of “sports”, so as not to let the ‘gamer nerds’ be on their perceived level.

I have doubts about that. I've always been more of a gamer nerd than a fan of sports and I have a pretty traditional opinion of what a sport is. I think that it's more fans of e-sports versus everyone else than it is fans of sports vs e-sports.

 

[John Price]

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

Since I know a little bit about this subject....


A. Back in the "360 no scope brooo" days, Faze were the first to aimbot. No, they wernt legit and are still aimbotting. Faze was first and foremost, a boys club that caught fire on YouTube when nobody else was trickshotting then made their fortune scamming little kids with CSGO skins to the point of 200k a day.

B. Like I said, they are still aimbotting. Cornus updates every single day with new hacks if you know where to look and I can't watch Faze gameplay without seeing thru it. I don't think there's one legit Faze member who isn't riding Cronus. How many Faze members have been DQ'd for botting a LAN? I lost count, honestly. Last FN WC, a hacker posted DM's of a player shooting up the leaderboard asking for hacks and who signed the guy?

Faze

Jarvis was booted from Epic servers because he used an aimbot in a video. Ban able? Sure, but I know specifically three players who botted and are back playing. Why hasnt Jarvis? Because he was using aimbot the entire time. Stupid, stupid kid.

3. Left a bad taste in my mouth then they pretty much bought a CSGO championship because none of their actual players were any good. Proving it was more a boys club then an actual, smartly run org. Sure, they got smart, they realized their players were trash so they went and got actual basement dwellers to carry them to the whole "were Faze brooo" victory speech.

4. When I had Faze members liking my clips out of nowhere then found myself in a 1v1 with one of their FN guys and I destroyed mercilessly and asked him how he could be so cringe with an aimbot and obvious macros, I suddenly was blocked by everyone in their crappy little org. Oh well....


Not a fan. Their players are trash bags.

But, no matter what anybody wants to say, eSports players are indeed athletes. Not too many can do the stuff Ninja was doing in his prime, and if you say you can, your just being silly. Mitch Marner is a great hockey player, but would get mauled by a dedicated 12 year old Fortnite player easily.

Trust me, I had Marner in my lobby, he's trash.

 

[Hammettf2b]

Sounds like a bunch of Faze member are getting called out for promoting "pump and dump" cryptos. This can't go well for them.

 

[aleshemsky83]

Sounds like a bunch of Faze member are getting called out for promoting "pump and dump" cryptos. This can't go well for them.

The punishments have already been handed out. One guy got cut, a couple others got suspended.

The FBI is investigating it from what I know.

 

[PK Cronin]

But, no matter what anybody wants to say, eSports players are indeed athletes. Not too many can do the stuff Ninja was doing in his prime, and if you say you can, your just being silly. Mitch Marner is a great hockey player, but would get mauled by a dedicated 12 year old Fortnite player easily.

Trust me, I had Marner in my lobby, he's trash.

I guess Joey Chestnut is now an athlete because he can do something none of us can, eat an insane amount of hot dogs (76) in 10 minutes. See, he's an athlete because it's difficult to do what he does and it requires athleticism and strength to pick up the hot dogs over and over with pinpoint accuracy. The focus and training required to do this is just nuts. Athlete of the year, maybe the decade, perhaps the greatest athlete of all time.

Do we not see how silly this is yet?

 

[Shareefruck]

I don't know much about it, but wouldn't eating a lot of hot dogs competitively technically be more of a physical feat than a mental feat?

 

[Osprey]

I don't know much about it, but wouldn't eating a lot of hot dogs competitively technically be more of a physical feat than a mental feat?

I dunno. Eating 76 hot dogs in 10 minutes while suppressing the urge the throw it all up seems like a mental feat to me.

 

[Shareefruck]

I dunno. Eating 76 hot dogs in 10 minutes while suppressing the urge the throw it all up seems like a mental feat to me.

There's definitely a mental component as well, but I still would have guessed that it's more physical than mental. Not sure how exactly it works, though.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

I'm not an e-sports guy but what matters is whether or not it is entertaining for those that follow it. Who cares if it's a sport or not?

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

I guess Joey Chestnut is now an athlete because he can do something none of us can, eat an insane amount of hot dogs (76) in 10 minutes. See, he's an athlete because it's difficult to do what he does and it requires athleticism and strength to pick up the hot dogs over and over with pinpoint accuracy. The focus and training required to do this is just nuts. Athlete of the year, maybe the decade, perhaps the greatest athlete of all time.

Do we not see how silly this is yet?

The Nathan's Hot Dog eating contest is always on ESPN, so there's that.

You know, the same channel that just signed the NHL.

I'm sorry, but your wrong with this one. Competitive gamers are athletes. If you haven't played conpetitively you have no clue, and that's fine.

Are nascar drivers athletes? Golfers? Jockeys? It's the exact same thing with the exception gamers have more avenues to make alot more money because that's where things are trending.

Ninja made what, 25 million a year in his prime? And now, washed up Ninja still makes more then Connor McDavid a year.

These Faze clowns make more money then "pro" athletes.

Don't knock the hustle and re-imagine your definition of what an athlete is.

 

[Ceremony]

I don't know much about it, but wouldn't eating a lot of hot dogs competitively technically be more of a physical feat than a mental feat?

Sounds pretty mental to me

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

Sounds pretty mental to me

If you don't think a guy shoving hot dogs in his mouth has nothing to do with physicality or being physically prepared for such an extreme action then I don't know what to tell you.

I really think people need to re- examine the definition of what an athlete is.

Not everyone can play a sport professionally, and not everyone can play a video game professionally.

As someone who has played and won LAN tournaments, I can tell you from personal experience grinding out dubs with hundreds of people watching you in person and via stream takes just as much toll on you physically as it does mentally.

Which is why I say if you've never competed, you really don't know what your talking about.

 

[PK Cronin]

The Nathan's Hot Dog eating contest is always on ESPN, so there's that.

You know, the same channel that just signed the NHL.

Oh, you mean the network that's an acronym for Entertainment and Sports Programming Network. It's not exclusively for sports.

I'm sorry, but your wrong with this one. Competitive gamers are athletes. If you haven't played conpetitively you have no clue, and that's fine.

Did you miss the part where I mentioned I've played against and beaten professional gamers before? Grubby, FruitDealer, and I even have a clip floating around here of me killing Ninja in PUBG.

Are nascar drivers athletes? Golfers? Jockeys? It's the exact same thing with the exception gamers have more avenues to make alot more money because that's where things are trending.

Ninja made what, 25 million a year in his prime? And now, washed up Ninja still makes more then Connor McDavid a year.

These Faze clowns make more money then "pro" athletes.

Don't knock the hustle and re-imagine your definition of what an athlete is.

Making money has nothing to do with whether or not someone is an athlete. NASCAR, golfers, and jockeys are not the same thing as esports, and I'm not necessarily ready to call all of those similar activities sports either. You've made zero argument for why esports participants should be considered athletes. It does not require any level of athleticism or physical prowess to be a professional gamer. Sorry, they are very skilled, they are well paid, but they aren't athletes. Nobody is "knocking the hustle," some people just want to make them something they aren't.

 

[PK Cronin]

If you don't think a guy shoving hot dogs in his mouth has nothing to do with physicality or being physically prepared for such an extreme action then I don't know what to tell you.

I really think people need to re- examine the definition of what an athlete is.

Not everyone can play a sport professionally, and not everyone can play a video game professionally.

As someone who has played and won LAN tournaments, I can tell you from personal experience grinding out dubs with hundreds of people watching you in person and via stream takes just as much toll on you physically as it does mentally.

Which is why I say if you've never competed, you really don't know what your talking about.

A day trader takes a lot out of you. It's a lot of grinding and lots of people are watching you, it takes a toll on you physically and mentally. If you've never done it, you don't really know what you're talking about. Day traders are now athletes.

Difficulty doesn't make something a sport.

 

[Shareefruck]

I'm not an e-sports guy but what matters is whether or not it is entertaining for those that follow it. Who cares if it's a sport or not?

I made a similar comment earlier, but to be fair, I haven't seen a single comment on this thread actually disparaging e-sports in any way, for not being a sport. It's just a discussion about choice of labels and definitions.

That said, when I look at the definition of "sport" in the dictionary, I don't see anything that should necessarily exclude e-sports (most of what's in there seems to just amount to "competitive playing"-- alternative off-shoots like "being a good sport" or "sportsmanship" doesn't suggest anything strictly physical either). To me, it just kind of seems like a conditioning from what you're used to, kind of thing.

If eating hot-dogs and playing chess became widely considered to be a sport, I don't think I'd have much of a problem accepting that, personally. It's a pretty meaningless and ambiguous term to begin with. It's like arguing about a sub-genre in music or something-- fun to nitpick, maybe, but ultimately, it doesn't really matter, and virtually anything can be anything.

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

Oh, you mean the network that's an acronym for Entertainment and Sports Programming Network. It's not exclusively for sports.

So by that token, you can say the NHL isn't a sport, right?

"Entertainment" is more along the myriad of talk shows they have. You know this, right?

Did you miss the part where I mentioned I've played against and beaten professional gamers before? Grubby, FruitDealer, and I even have a clip floating around here of me killing Ninja in PUBG.

Killing Ninja isnt really saying much, alot have people have done it, just sayin.

Now if you beat him during his FN run....

Making money has nothing to do with whether or not someone is an athlete.

True.

NASCAR, golfers, and jockeys are not the same thing as esports, and I'm not necessarily ready to call all of those similar activities sports either.

Lol wat?

You've made zero argument for why esports participants should be considered athletes. It does not require any level of athleticism or physical prowess to be a professional gamer. Sorry, they are very skilled, they are well paid, but they aren't athletes. Nobody is "knocking the hustle," some people just want to make them something they aren't.

Have you ever competed competitively? And I'm not talking about playing Goldeneye with a bunch of friends?

 

[Cubs2024WSChamps]

A day trader takes a lot out of you. It's a lot of grinding and lots of people are watching you, it takes a toll on you physically and mentally. If you've never done it, you don't really know what you're talking about. Day traders are now athletes.

Difficulty doesn't make something a sport.

Horrible analogy.

I will bet money "pro" athletes consider pro gamers athletes.

I don't want to be as good as Mitch Marner at hockey.

But, I know for a fact Mitch Marner wishes he was as good as I am at Fortnite.


Just sayin

 

[Ceremony]

If you don't think a guy shoving hot dogs in his mouth has nothing to do with physicality or being physically prepared for such an extreme action then I don't know what to tell you.

I really think people need to re- examine the definition of what an athlete is.

Not everyone can play a sport professionally, and not everyone can play a video game professionally.

As someone who has played and won LAN tournaments, I can tell you from personal experience grinding out dubs with hundreds of people watching you in person and via stream takes just as much toll on you physically as it does mentally.

Which is why I say if you've never competed, you really don't know what your talking about.

I was making a joke based on alternative and vaguely offensive definitions of the word 'mental'

I have played Gran Turismo Sport competitively for the past three years and followed the real competitive side of the game at the top level, along with other sim-racing platforms in that time, and am well aware of the level of effort, skill and concentration required. I have no desire to gatekeep the word 'athlete' as something sacrosanct either.

 

[Shareefruck]

Horrible analogy.

I will bet money "pro" athletes consider pro gamers athletes.

I don't want to be as good as Mitch Marner at hockey.

But, I know for a fact Mitch Marner wishes he was as good as I am at Fortnite.


Just sayin

I lean closer towards your position than PK Cronin's, but this strikes me as bad/meaningless rhetoric too.

Tons of famous athletes also have business/entrepreneurial aspirations while tons of businessmen/entrepreneurs don't have athletic aspirations, but that doesn't make starting a business any closer to being a sport.

 

[93LEAFS]

A day trader takes a lot out of you. It's a lot of grinding and lots of people are watching you, it takes a toll on you physically and mentally. If you've never done it, you don't really know what you're talking about. Day traders are now athletes.

Difficulty doesn't make something a sport.

It'd be the same as classifying chess or poker as a sport. They aren't. It's a competitive activity that requires skill, but it isn't an athletic endeavor.

 

[PK Cronin]

So by that token, you can say the NHL isn't a sport, right?

"Entertainment" is more along the myriad of talk shows they have. You know this, right?

No, you cannot say the NHL isn't a sport because I wasn't using the fact that ESPN was covering hockey as a reason for it being one in the first place. You attempted to legitimize your claim of esports being a sport by mentioning this.

Killing Ninja isnt really saying much, alot have people have done it, just sayin.

Now if you beat him during his FN run....

Glad you're harping on Ninja so much and completely ignoring the others.

True.

So why bring it up?

Have you ever competed competitively? And I'm not talking about playing Goldeneye with a bunch of friends?

Yes.

Horrible analogy.

I will bet money "pro" athletes consider pro gamers athletes.

I don't want to be as good as Mitch Marner at hockey.

But, I know for a fact Mitch Marner wishes he was as good as I am at Fortnite.


Just sayin

It's a horrible analogy why?

Your whole argument seems to be that it's difficult, they make money, it's on ESPN, and now you're speculating that actual athletes would consider esports participants as athletes. None of this is even remotely convincing. This will go on and on, you'll make no attempt to actually clarify anything, so you keep thinking that what Ninja does is the same as what McDavid does.

It'd be the same as classifying chess or poker as a sport. They aren't. It's a competitive activity that requires skill, but it isn't an athletic endeavor.

Correct.