FaZe Clan is taking over

Shareefruck

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Apr 2, 2005
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I did in fact bring up air racing in a subsequent post. They basically took an existing activity and created a competition around it.

Dog fights are also competitive in that the top aces of every major air conflict are carefully tracked and analyzed statistically. If air traffic controlling was interesting enough, you could certainly track who lands the most planes in a given time period.

War games and air exercises assign points and anoint champions just like any sport.

The point I was making is that it seems any activity can be turned into a competition and thence into a sport because every activity involves some mental/physical component.

You made some kind of odd tangential point that a sport requires some threshold of recognition by a larger population which I fundamentally disagree with. Just because it's popular doesn't mean it's a sport and vice versa.

There are plenty of worthy sports out there that I'll wager a lot of people are completely unaware of.
I mentioned a threshold of recognition not to imply that popularity = sport but because you brought up examples that sound ridiculous to consider as sports as a result of that threshold of recognition and not as a result of their lack of athleticism.

Bringing up air racing after the fact doesn't really do anything to defend why your initial post was criticized.
 
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NyQuil

Big F$&*in Q
Jan 5, 2005
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I mentioned a threshold of recognition not to imply that popularity = sport but because you brought up examples that sound ridiculous to consider as sports as a result of that threshold of recognition and not as a result of their lack of athleticism.

It's hardly ridiculous given how it meets the criteria established by some in the thread:

The Top Gun dogfighting competition involves:

1. A physically demanding activity.
2. Numerous competitors.
3. A winner who is recognized as the champion.

How is that different from auto racing exactly?

Bringing up air racing after the fact doesn't really do anything to defend why your initial post was criticized.

It certainly helps to explain it to people who failed to understand the point of the original post.
 

Shareefruck

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It's hardly ridiculous given how it meets the criteria established by some in the thread:

The Top Gun dogfighting competition involves:

1. A physically demanding activity.
2. Numerous competitors.
3. A winner who is recognized as the champion.

How is that different from auto racing exactly?



It certainly helps to explain it to people who failed to understand the point of the original post.
You brought them up as counter-examples because one wouldn't normally think of them as sports/athletes and it would "sound" ridiculous to designate them as such. But that designation only "sounds" ridiculous, not because of their lack of athleticism, but because people wouldn't even associate them with games.

Being aware of them as games, it's not ridiculous at all to consider them sports (not any more than other things that are widely considered sports). Thus, these examples have nothing to do with athleticism being a prerequisite to being a sport, and doesn't really support that. It's just appealing to preconceptions based on what people are unaware of about them.
 
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NyQuil

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Being aware of them as games, it's not ridiculous at all to consider them sports. Thus, these examples have nothing to do with athleticism being a prerequisite to being a sport, and doesn't really support that. It's just appealing to preconceptions based on what people are unaware of.

Exactly.

Based on the e-sports example, anything can be characterized as a sport and anyone can be characterized as an athlete provided:

(a) A competition is based around the activity.
(b) The activity involved some physical/mental component (which most everything does).

Shooting someone in CoD and cutting broccoli very quickly in a demanding cooking competition requires discipline, dexterity, focus and practice.

It's impressive to see these athletes at work.
 
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Shareefruck

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Exactly.

Based on the e-sports example, anything can be characterized as a sport and anyone can be characterized as an athlete provided:

(a) A competition is based around the activity.
(b) The activity involved some physical/mental component (which everything does).

Shooting someone in CoD and cutting broccoli very quickly in a demanding cooking competition requires discipline, dexterity, focus and practice.
I don't see anything too disagreeable with this. "Sport" does not have much meaning to it that distinguishes it from "games" at all. People are just stuck on traditional associations that they're used to, when they need not apply at all, really.

Are you suggesting that your analogy was brought up to support this argument, rather than deem it silly with examples that you knew people would similarly consider silly?
 

NyQuil

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Are you suggesting that your analogy was brought up to support this argument, rather than deem it silly?

I'm of the opinion that such a broad definition for the term renders it completely pointless.

It basically renders the terms "competition" and "sport" virtually interchangeable.
 

Shareefruck

Registered User
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I'm of the opinion that such a broad definition for the term renders it completely pointless.

It basically renders "competition" and "sport" virtually interchangeable.
I think that it ultimately is and should be, personally (although I don't feel too strongly about it). You can do anything "for sport", which is why the phrase "doing ___ for sport" exists and is used so often. There is no high bar required to clear it.

The idea that competitive cooking be designated a sport does not make me respulsed or flabbergasted like it seems to for others.
 

NyQuil

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I think that it ultimately is and should be, personally (although I don't feel too strongly about it). You can do anything "for sport", which is why the phrase "doing ___ for sport" exists and is used so often. There is no high bar required to clear it.

Doing something for sport doesn't mean that you are doing something competitively. If anything, it usually implies the opposite.

It generally means doing anything for enjoyment purposes only.

In fact, it runs contrary to your "competitive playing" criterion that you alluded to earlier.
 

Shareefruck

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Doing something for sport doesn't mean that you are doing something competitively. If anything, it usually implies the opposite.

It generally means doing anything for enjoyment purposes only.

In fact, it runs contrary to your "competitive playing" criterion that you alluded to earlier.
I'm kind of open to the competitive part being put into question as well, if that's what you're getting at.
 

Shareefruck

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At that point, doesn't it really becomes a question of what isn't a sport?
Yes, the term as a whole is pretty meaningless to me. It seems that people insist and universally agree that it should exist in a competitive environment, so I'm going along with it. But ultimately, I don't think it matters either way.
 

NyQuil

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Yes, the term as a whole is pretty meaningless to me. It seems that people insist and universally agree that it should exist in a competitive environment, so I'm going along with it. But ultimately, I don't think it matters either way.

Well, music is an activity that is performed for enjoyment purposes.

It would make musicians athletes, no?

Even going to a more stringent definition:
(a) Musical competitions exist;
(b) It involves a demanding physical skill.
 

Shareefruck

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Apr 2, 2005
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Well, music is an activity that is performed for enjoyment purposes.

It would make musicians athletes, no?

Even going to a more stringent definition:
(a) Musical competitions exist;
(b) It involves a demanding physical skill.
I see nothing weird about calling musicians competing against each other a sport (drummer battles for example, get really physically intense). Calling a musician just playing alone a sport certainly sounds weird, but probably only because we're conditioned to associate sports with what we're used to being called it. Playing an instrument often takes more athleticism than things that we do consider a sport, so it's all pretty meaningless.

I feel like we might as well just replace the word sports with "game", if we want it all to make sense and be consistent. That's ultimately the important part of these competitions. If athleticism is a slippery slope and it's agreed that it isn't inherently more impressive or something that should be elevated on a pedestal above less-athletic digital games, I don't really see a need to arbitrarily pick some physical threshold to call "sports", while also having other games that to some extent are also sports.

I mean, it's creating all this confusion and debate because the term itself is stupid, ultimately.

It's a lot like the "everything is art, but some things are more artistic than others" thing.

Edit: to be clear, I didn't argue with you because I held the opposite of your position, I argued because I found the conditions of your analogy suspect, and would have even if I was on the same side of the argument.
 
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Osprey

Registered User
Feb 18, 2005
27,090
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what in the cinnamon toast f***
I don't know exactly what that is but it sounds AWESOME.

Dude! I was in the store the other day and saw Cinnamon Toast Churros cereal from the makers of Cinnamon Toast Crunch. Talk about something sounding awesome. I didn't buy it, though, because I was afraid that I'd eat the whole box in one sitting. I regret that decision, especially right now while watching NyQuil and Shareefruck argue.
:popcorn:
 

PK Cronin

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Feb 11, 2013
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I see nothing weird about calling musicians competing against each other a sport (drummer battles for example, get really physically intense). Calling a musician just playing alone a sport certainly sounds weird, but probably only because we're conditioned to associate sports with what we're used to being called it. Playing an instrument often takes more athleticism than things that we do consider a sport, so it's all pretty meaningless.

Such as?

I feel like we might as well just replace the word sports with "game", if we want it all to make sense and be consistent. That's ultimately the important part of these competitions. If athleticism is a slippery slope and it's agreed that it isn't inherently more impressive or something that should be elevated on a pedestal above less-athletic digital games, I don't really see a need to arbitrarily pick some physical threshold to call "sports", while also having other games that to some extent are also sports.

I mean, it's creating all this confusion and debate because the term itself is stupid, ultimately.

It's a lot like the "everything is art, but some things are more artistic than others" thing.

Edit: to be clear, I didn't argue with you because I held the opposite of your position, I argued because I found the conditions of your analogy suspect, and would have even if I was on the same side of the argument.

The whole discussion was around whether or not esports participants are or are not athletes. They aren't. People try to stretch "physical" to mean any sort of movement at all, which is just absurd.
Sports are an activity that involves physical exertion and skill, where you compete against others.

There's obviously gray area sometimes, but it's usually pretty clear to me. Barely moving = not a sport.

It has nothing to do with athletes being placed on a higher pedestal than gamers or anything, it's creating a distinction between what they each actually do. For me, a sport is something that can't be anything other than athletic. You cannot play hockey and have it be not athletic, the same is true of basketball, soccer, etc. Many of these other things don't fall into that same category but require a very specific set of circumstances to try and replicate what sports inherently have.
 

Shareefruck

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Apr 2, 2005
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Such as?



The whole discussion was around whether or not esports participants are or are not athletes. They aren't. People try to stretch "physical" to mean any sort of movement at all, which is just absurd.
Sports are an activity that involves physical exertion and skill, where you compete against others.

There's obviously gray area sometimes, but it's usually pretty clear to me. Barely moving = not a sport.

It has nothing to do with athletes being placed on a higher pedestal than gamers or anything, it's creating a distinction between what they each actually do. For me, a sport is something that can't be anything other than athletic. You cannot play hockey and have it be not athletic, the same is true of basketball, soccer, etc. Many of these other things don't fall into that same category but require a very specific set of circumstances to try and replicate what sports inherently have.
I think an argument can be made that drumming is as much if not more of an athletic endeavor than jockeys, golfers, and archers, things that you personally may not consider sports, but are generally considered sports.

Beyond that, I don't really have a huge desire to extensively argue with you about whether or not e-sports are sports. You seem to have made up your mind on the subject to an extremely invested degree, I think it's a pointless discussion that doesn't matter, and simply went into my own tentative position to answer Nyquil, who I was arguing with about finding the logic of his analogy suspect, just purely on the subject of what's fair rhetoric.
 
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PK Cronin

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Feb 11, 2013
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I think an argument can be made that drumming is as much if not more of an athletic endeavor than jockeys, golfers, and archers, things that you personally may not consider sports, but are generally considered sports.

You mentioned drumming earlier, anything else?

Beyond that, I don't really have a huge desire to extensively argue with you about whether or not e-sports are sports. You seem to have made up your mind on the subject to an extremely invested degree, I think it's a pointless discussion that doesn't matter, and simply went into my own tentative position to answer Nyquil, who I was arguing with about finding the logic of his analogy suspect, just purely on the subject of what's fair rhetoric.

Not trying to argue, was clarifying and also curious about the instrument thing beyond drums. I can't think of much else that would be considered athletic beyond marching band or something like that. Maybe there's something I wasn't thinking about.
 

Shareefruck

Registered User
Apr 2, 2005
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You mentioned drumming earlier, anything else?



Not trying to argue, was clarifying and also curious about the instrument thing beyond drums. I can't think of much else that would be considered athletic beyond marching band or something like that. Maybe there's something I wasn't thinking about.
I don't think more than one example is necessary to justify the statement, "Playing an instrument often takes more athleticism than things that we do consider a sport, so it's all pretty meaningless."

It really doesn't take much athleticism at all to satisfy that bar, though, considering that fishing, archery and curling are widely considered sports. I imagine that most relatively large/heavy brass wind instruments are in a similar ballpark of physically demanding as those (like a Trombone). Drums and other percussion instruments are just the most obvious example.

I am curious though, now that you mention it-- as unflinchingly passionate as you seem to be about this subject and your position, would you consider a drum-battle between two drummers, sure to leave both drenched in sweat and physically exhausted, a legitimate sport? And if not, why not?
 
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TheGreenTBer

If Elvis calls tell him to f*ck off
Apr 30, 2021
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Why is there a 4 page thread on a group of nobodys who play video games?

Come on. You're no stranger to this site, you know what's been posted here in the past. On a hypothetical "Most Useless Threads in HFBoards History" poll this one may not even chart better than 10,000.
 

The Crypto Guy

Registered User
Jun 26, 2017
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Come on. You're no stranger to this site, you know what's been posted here in the past. On a hypothetical "Most Useless Threads in HFBoards History" poll this one may not even chart better than 10,000.
You're right i have...but i definitely think this tops the top 3 in this forum (esp because we are on page 4) :laugh:
 
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Cubs2024WSChamps

Tate MacRae follows me on Tiktok
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Im not even gonna lie, i stayed away from this thread waiting for more "I was great at CoD" war stories back in the day
Dissapoint, i has
You tried to use ESPN to bolster your stance. You're wrong.
Well, the gods honest truth is, eSports is subjective. If you think its a sport, then those who are pro gamers are indeed athletes.
If ESPN is providing coverage of eSports, then if the world leader in sports thinks they're a sport, then pro players are athletes. If you dont, oh well.
If you states this before, my sincere apologies, i really dont read you.


What does being the best gamer have to do with being an athlete?
Alot, if you consider pro gamers athletes.
Sure, go ahead and talk about StarCraft guys. Explain to me how Boxer is an athlete, or Flash.
Well, i only know so much as SC2 was before ny time.
Both were athletes, tho.
Athletes get paid a varying amount of money depending upon what sport they play. Some barely get anything. The amount of money someone earns has nothing to do with whether or not someone is an athlete.
Hold on....
"Siri, is eSports considered a sport?"
Well, KBIB, the technical term as is posted below pretty much sums up eSports. Granted, the physical aspects arent as extreme as other sports, but theyre still is physicality in game playing, like it or not. Unless you are just sitting there and mentally moving objects around telepathically, there is a physical element. Skill, entertainment, yup, eSports.
Some day traders are better than others and they are competing against people all day long. Why do they need a "lobby"?
You said this before you posted the definitions. Bravo.


He's an exceptional gamer. William James Mitchell Jr. isn't an athlete because he crushed Pacman.
"siri, whats the definition of an esport athlete"
A professional player with a work contract with an eSports team.
Yes, Billy Mitchell is an athlete.
i also stated in my first post that people need to re-imagine their definition of what an athlete is and stop...pardon the trope... gatekeeping the antiquated definition of sweaty jocks towel snapping each other over a touchdown. Its 2021, move forward.
You keep trying to say that it's the difficulty that makes it a sport, which just isn't true. I don't care if winning a FN season is harder to do than what McDavid does, that doesn't make Ninja an athlete. It makes him a competitive gamer, a great one at that. I don't have athletes on a pedestal either, they're just athletes, which is different than a gamer.
You are repeating yourself to prove your point.
Bobby Fisher didn't play a sport, so he's not an athlete. It's not about potential, it's about what they are actually doing.
good lord.
Yes, Chess is a sport.
Athlete: a person who is proficient in sports and other forms of physical exercise.

Sport: an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment.
Dedicating time sitting in a chair moving your thumbs isn't physical exertion or physical exercise. Ask a doctor.
Google "physical exterion in eSports"
you're welcome
My favorite part is that you still aren't even attempting to define what makes something a sport or someone an athlete.

Well hopefully, this makes it a little more transparent.
 

NyQuil

Big F$&*in Q
Jan 5, 2005
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Ottawa, ON
i also stated in my first post that people need to re-imagine their definition of what an athlete is and stop...pardon the trope... gatekeeping the antiquated definition of sweaty jocks towel snapping each other over a touchdown. Its 2021, move forward.

Is that how you see football players?

It's 2021, move forward.
 

Cubs2024WSChamps

Tate MacRae follows me on Tiktok
Apr 29, 2015
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That still doesn’t mean i was an athlete because we were top clans on game battles. That’s just silly.

Well, since the definition of an esport athlete is being part of an established org, then yes, you were not an athlete.

Which is odd, considering the time frame. If you really were a top 30 player in 2007, you would have been signed.

Quickly.

So pardon me if im having a hard time believing you. CoD4 ushered in the CoD boom and theres no way that in a orbit of 16.5 million players in 2007 you were a top 30.
I mean, this is easy to look up, you know.

And no offense, i say this as one of the best FN players in the world, altho i havent played too much of the new season and im ranked 800 something out of a user base of 35 million, where as last season i was ranked 9th in the world.
And if people think im lying im more then happy to post pics.

like this one....
Screenshot-20201204-030444-2.png

Ranked first, bro. Out of 35 million players. Yes, thats me. I actually paid the 20 bucks to have my screen name changed to KBIB just to prove this. It takes a couple days but trust me, ill link it.
This is why i can say i question your claim, because ive had orgs come at me for months.

High five tho
 

Cubs2024WSChamps

Tate MacRae follows me on Tiktok
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I was a fan of Ninja just slightly before he really blew up. He was never the best. There were players that were better than him at Fortnite. However, he was absolutely the best at capitalizing on his fame and personality. He did what anyone else should have done, saw the bag and ran with it. I'm not attempting to diminish any of his accomplishments because I think he is a big factor in gaming taking a huge leap forward to being credible instead of the trope that gamers are basement dwellers.
Lol wat?

Ninja was the best FN player in season 3 by a wide margin.

Most of the building techniques used by try hards today were created by him.

You know this, right?

But don't take my word for it, take SypherPK's, the guy who is pretty much the FN custodian historian;

 

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