Fault: Trotz or Poile

[RCola88]

we are all in agreement here, I think. We haven't had a "natural" offensive talent in the mold of a Kane or Crosby or Ovechkin, ever, except for Radulov.

the question becomes, is it Poiles fault for not finding a superstar outside the top 5, or is it just the unfortunate side effect of our never ending moderate success that had us drafting in the teens for several years in a row.

(How different would our fortunes have been had only Florida totally shat the bed in 07-08 and we ended up with Stamkos)

Trotzy would still force them to be a two way forward Leggy was a pure offensive guy when we drafted him, look what he turned into.

 

[dulzhok]

we are all in agreement here, I think. We haven't had a "natural" offensive talent in the mold of a Kane or Crosby or Ovechkin, ever, except for Radulov.

the question becomes, is it Poiles fault for not finding a superstar outside the top 5, or is it just the unfortunate side effect of our never ending moderate success that had us drafting in the teens for several years in a row.

(How different would our fortunes have been had only Florida totally shat the bed in 07-08 and we ended up with Stamkos)

Picking in the teens or much later didn't stop the drafting or acquisition of high-end players like Zetterberg, Been, Sharp, Kjecic, St Louis, Kopitar, O'Reilly, Richards, Lucic, Pavelski etc, etc. Poile just can't do it.

 

[dulzhok]

Trotzy would still force them to be a two way forward Leggy was a pure offensive guy when we drafted him, look what he turned into.

This is what this comes down to. Guys still dreaming that Legwand had high-end potential. He never had it. Plus, Trotz let Legwand float around for most of his ELC and and still showed no signs of anything special offensively. Sharks passed on him for a reason. It was Lecavalier and everyone else.

 

[ChesterCopperpot1*]

Let me put it out like this. I was operations manager over the years I to evaluate skill sets and assign workload to employees strength this is what coaching is. On a number of occasions HR hired an employee that could not read. Yes this I real life and true, so according to what some of you are saying as a coach I should teach these employees to read.

The example is not a lot different. When player makes it to the NHL level. The coaching responsibilities become teambuilding and in hockey pairing players were they compliment each other. In lower levels coaches must teach the game sure but not at the NHL level.

Your job is not synonymous with that of an NHL Head Coach. No matter how much you try to rationalize it, it's not. So stop it.

 

[glenngineer]

I'm going to use Legwand as an example. He was horrible at faceoffs when he first got to the NHL. Over time he's now a guy that is in the 50% range. They work on faceoffs at practice. I've seen it firsthand. It was done with coaches dropping the puck and instructing. Hmmmm. Sounds like development to me.

Dulz, did Weber have the biggest slapshot when he entered the league? Nope. Maybe the coaches actually made a few tweaks to take a very good slap shot and turn it in to what it is today. Imagine that, guys with more experience teaching players with less experience to improve their game.

If coaching weren't so important, why don't the guys just go out and play like they did when they were kids and form their own pairings or line combos? Why did LA let their coach go and bring in Sutter who was able to win with that same group of players? Why did Chicago let Savard go and Q came in and has won two Cups with them? Neither Q or Sutter had ever won a Cup before but did it with these two rosters?

To me everything has to fall in to place to be successful. It starts with drafting the right players. Obviously but you have to get a little lucky that some pan out better than you expected. You have a good farm system in place. You have to have guys on your roster that play well together. You have to have a coach that knows how to prepare these guys for battles with each other and play to their strengths and minimize any of their weaknesses. You have to have a GM that is able to add valuable pieces via free agency or trades. Chemistry is often bantered about but the sum of all the pieces is more valuable than the pieces themselves. We have not had the right combination of everything falling in to place for one reason or another. None of us know the right combo for if we did we'd be GM's or coaches or a GM/coach for some team in the NHL.

Another example of coaching and development. Why is Trotz benching MDZ? Some comments were made he's not playing the Predator way. There are a few teaching methods in place. First one is simple, if you don't play my way, you sit. That is teaching MDZ a lesson. His actions caused a certain effect on his playing time. Secondly, Trotz is expecting him to play a certain way. He's told him, this is what I want and expect from you. That is teaching a guy that this is his system and he needs to stick with it. There is no ad libbing so to speak. This is what I want you to do. Plain and simple. MDZ may have grown up playing a certain way, from the way others taught him and now Trotz is wanting him to play differently than what he's accustomed to, teaching once again.

He is not teaching from the ground up but modifying what has already been engrained in MDZ's head all these years. We hear about details in the game. That is what coaching is as well. Figuring out that you put the puck up the boards as opposed to the middle of the ice. Guys who don't use the boards find themselves on the bench. Once again, teaching method. Make the mistake, pay by losing time but hopefully learning from that mistake. Learning the game from the coach by negative reinforcement in my estimation.

All that said, we don't have the right combo, it needs to change, what that is is anyone's guess. Hope all you HF'ers figure it out so I can start going to hockey games again.

 

[triggrman]

Your job is not synonymous with that of an NHL Head Coach. No matter how much you try to rationalize it, it's not. So stop it.

Exactly, neither is mine, so I'll stop too.


But coaches are responsible for developing players, if they weren't we wouldn't call them coaches.

 

[PFL615]

I'm going to use Legwand as an example. He was horrible at faceoffs when he first got to the NHL. Over time he's now a guy that is in the 50% range. They work on faceoffs at practice. I've seen it firsthand. It was done with coaches dropping the puck and instructing. Hmmmm. Sounds like development to me.

Dulz, did Weber have the biggest slapshot when he entered the league? Nope. Maybe the coaches actually made a few tweaks to take a very good slap shot and turn it in to what it is today. Imagine that, guys with more experience teaching players with less experience to improve their game.

If coaching weren't so important, why don't the guys just go out and play like they did when they were kids and form their own pairings or line combos? Why did LA let their coach go and bring in Sutter who was able to win with that same group of players? Why did Chicago let Savard go and Q came in and has won two Cups with them? Neither Q or Sutter had ever won a Cup before but did it with these two rosters?

To me everything has to fall in to place to be successful. It starts with drafting the right players. Obviously but you have to get a little lucky that some pan out better than you expected. You have a good farm system in place. Gg have to have guys on your roster that play well together. You have to have a coach that knows how to prepare these guys for battles with each other and play to their strengths and minimize any of their weaknesses. You have to have a GM that is able to add valuable pieces via free agency or trades. Chemistry is often bantered about but the sum of all the pieces is more valuable than the pieces themselves. We have not had the right combination of everything falling in to place for one reason or another. None of us know the right combo for if we did we'd be GM's or coaches or a GM/coach for some team in the NHL.

Another example of coaching and development. Why is Trotz benching MDZ? Some comments were made he's not playing the Predator way. There are a few teaching methods in place. First one is simple, if you don't play my way, you sit. That is teaching MDZ a lesson. His actions caused a certain effect on his g time. Secondly, Trotz is expecting him to play a certain way. He's told him, this is what I want and expect from you. That is teaching a guy that this is his system and he needs to stick with it. There is no ad libbing so to speak. This is what I want you to do. Plain and simple. MDZ may have grown up playing a certain way, from the way others taught him and now Trotz is wanting him to play differently than what he's accustomed to, teaching once again.

He is not teaching from the ground up but modifying what has already been engrained in MDZ's head all these years. We hear about details in the game. That is what coaching is as well. Figuring out that you put the puck up the boards as opposed to the middle of the ice. Guys who don't use the boards find themselves on the bench. Once again, teaching method. Make the mistake, pay by losing time but hopefully learning from that mistake. Learning the game from the coach by negative reinforcement in my estimation.

All that said, we don't have the right combo, it needs to change, what that is is anyone's guess. Hope all you HF'ers figure it out so I can start going to hockey games again.

General question, What does HF'ers have to do with you going to hockey games again?

 

[glenngineer]

General question, What does HF'ers have to do with you going to hockey games again?

It was a tongue and cheek response to all the GM's and coaches on here that can fix all the teams woes.

I won't be going to any games until Trotz and/or Poile are gone.

 

[Byrddog]

I love the way people poopoo rational conversation. Its not gonna happen but I would love to see the ownership fire both Trotz and Poile just to watch 2/3 of the posters here just explode when there replacements blow this team up.

 

[glenngineer]

I love the way people poopoo rational conversation. Its not gonna happen but I would love to see the ownership fire both Trotz and Poile just to watch 2/3 of the posters here just explode when there replacements blow this team up.

Would it matter if we blew it up? Terrible last year. Terrible this year. Not much to blow up really.

 

[Byrddog]

Would it matter if we blew it up? Terrible last year. Terrible this year. Not much to blow up really.

For me I agree the only players I would protect would be Jones, Weber Josi and Rinne. But this would not work theres nothing left to trade that would turn the team into a playoff team. I expect the same ole same ole off season and two more years of pain.

 

[glenngineer]

For me I agree the only players I would protect would be Jones, Weber Josi and Rinne. But this would not work theres nothing left to trade that would turn the team into a playoff team. I expect the same ole same ole off season and two more years of pain.

I agree but how many great to elite d-men does a team really need? I could see keeping one of Jones or Weber and Josi so that you've got a RHD and a LHD. I'd trade one of the two to see if we can land something up front to help us get more balance.

Many thoughts to trading both and I'd say we'd get a bigger haul for Weber at this point. The thing that disappoints me about Weber's game is his lack of intimidation/big hits. We're playing Chicago who's hitting everything in sight and our biggest guy, our best hitter, our most intimidating force isn't dishing it back to them. I missed the hit on Jones but once that happens, he's got to lead us back with some big hits on their guys. To me, why have a guy if he's not playing with all his tools. Is that him or the staff telling him to tone it down so his emotions don't get the better of him and it keeps him on the ice?

All that said, keep two of the three defensemen, get a top forward or two in the trade depending on who we move and go forward. Thing is, I don't want Poile or Trotz as part of the future at this point. We've seen what they can do. Time to move on. Time to take ourselves to another level.

 

[triggrman]

I agree but how many great to elite d-men does a team really need? I could see keeping one of Jones or Weber and Josi so that you've got a RHD and a LHD. I'd trade one of the two to see if we can land something up front to help us get more balance.

Many thoughts to trading both and I'd say we'd get a bigger haul for Weber at this point. The thing that disappoints me about Weber's game is his lack of intimidation/big hits. We're playing Chicago who's hitting everything in sight and our biggest guy, our best hitter, our most intimidating force isn't dishing it back to them. I missed the hit on Jones but once that happens, he's got to lead us back with some big hits on their guys. To me, why have a guy if he's not playing with all his tools. Is that him or the staff telling him to tone it down so his emotions don't get the better of him and it keeps him on the ice?

All that said, keep two of the three defensemen, get a top forward or two in the trade depending on who we move and go forward. Thing is, I don't want Poile or Trotz as part of the future at this point. We've seen what they can do. Time to move on. Time to take ourselves to another level.

Glen, you just can't do that and play the minutes that Weber is expected to play every night.

Here are the top defensemen in TOI.

Ryan Suter
Erik Karlsson
Brian Campbell
Shea Weber
Roman Josi

Only one physical defender in that bunch. Ryan Suter is 2nd behind Weber on that list with 64 hits compared to 146 for Weber.

Blocked shots? Weber leads here too, Josi is 2nd with 20 less than Weber, followed by Suter with 25 less.

He can't be in beast mode every second of every game. It's just not going to happen.

In the Chicago game, he was manhandling verstege and Seabrook and went after someone else, I forgot who, so he was plenty involved physically but he's not our goon, that's Clune's roll. We can't afford to have Weber in the penalty box everytime someone takes a hard hit. That hit btw, was clean.

It's funny, he's one of the most physical defensemen in the league, one of the top shot blockers, top goal scoring defensemen, top minute eaters and faces one of the highest quality of competition, night in and night out. Yet fans here belly ache because he's not the team enforcer too.


edit: Karlsson actually is 2nd in hits behind Weber with 42 less hits, but he still has more than Suter. Which is sad really.

Point stands, none of them are physical defenders in Weber's league.

 

[triggrman]

Now, having made my defense of Weber.

I will agree, you don't need as many elite defenders as we currently have.

Kimmo, Hamhuis, Weber, Suter, Zidlicky, Klein and Zannon were all on the team that got us how far?

This is with Kariya, Dumont, Sullivan, Arnott, Erat, Radulov, Hartnell, Legwand and Forsberg all on the team. We had 7 guys with 54 points or more. 6 guys with at least 20 goals, 2 guys with more than 25 goals.

And yet we were one and done. What more does Trotz need to get the job done?

 

[glenngineer]

Trigg, not asking him to fight but to play with an edge and within the rules like Stevens and Pronger used to do.

 

[dulzhok]

And yet we were one and done. What more does Trotz need to get the job done?

A goalie without a blood clot to start.

SJ was still a better team on paper. Most of those guys you listed were scraps from other teams-- Trotz turned a much of scraps (Walker, Dumont, Arnott, Sullivan, Timonen, Mason, Zanon, Zidlicky, Eaton, etc) into a pretty darn good team. Kariya was talented, but past his prime. He was crap the years before and after Trotz.

Thornton, Marleau, etc in their prime were better on paper. We had a chance to win, but to think we were where is shoe-in to win is ridiculous. SJ was the hottest team in the NHL going into playoffs both times we played them.

If we give Trotz crap for not getting past SJ, you need to give him credit from getting past talented teams like Anaheim and Detroit, when we had less talent than them.

As for the present, we have the worst or 2nd-to-worse forward talent in the NHL. GM problem, not a coaching problem.

 

[triggrman]

But, according to Trotz, it's them team he wanted, players he targeted.

 

[dulzhok]

But, according to Trotz, it's them team he wanted, players he targeted.

Where is this quote?

I have no doubt Poile runs things past Trotz. But if he is building a team largely off what a coach tells him, he should be fired without question for that alone.

Brian Burke actually called Poile out on that in the Team USA Article. He kept saying he needed to consult with coaches. Burke told him it's the GMs job to see the big picture, not the coach.

As Dean Lombardi told him, don't overthink it. Poile's overthinking in decisions is exactly why we never catch big fish. He's too busy compiling opinions or being comprehensive-- meanwhile other GMs swoop in and get the job done.

New GM, please.

 

[Gnashville]

I love the way people poopoo rational conversation. Its not gonna happen but I would love to see the ownership fire both Trotz and Poile just to watch 2/3 of the posters here just explode when there replacements blow this team up.

Maybe blowing it up needs to happen. Both have no desire to change the culture of the team, or to look at the standings and see that all of the top teams are always tops in GF. St Louis blew it up and have come out the other end a top team. This team is 29th in Goal scoring and have the worst forward group in the NHL except for Buffalo. Forsberg is the more talented than anyone on the roster and he gets burried on the bench by Trotz until he is sent to Milwaukee. Jarnkrok will be sent back soon if he is seen as a defensive liability. I'm sick of the one way guys on this roster. There is no one that knows how to score goals, and the coaching staff never gives those kids a chance to develop a offensive game. Wilson has been Trotzed to the point of worthlessness and Forsberg is next.

 

[Byrddog]

Where is this quote?

I have no doubt Poile runs things past Trotz. But if he is building a team largely off what a coach tells him, he should be fired without question for that alone.

Brian Burke actually called Poile out on that in the Team USA Article. He kept saying he needed to consult with coaches. Burke told him it's the GMs job to see the big picture, not the coach.

As Dean Lombardi told him, don't overthink it. Poile's overthinking in decisions is exactly why we never catch big fish. He's too busy compiling opinions or being comprehensive-- meanwhile other GMs swoop in and get the job done.

New GM, please.

This supports my premise of what a coach does. He takes the talent puts them into the most productive situation he can. The GM provided the talent the director of player development is a third set of eyes to keep the GM and coach informed of the progress of the prospects. available if a player gets a hangnail and can't go(sarcasm). It is not the NHL coaches responsibility to develop to tweek sure. The level of competition in the NHL requires that players be a a certain level for a team to be competitive. Talent plus experience this is where the current players on the roster and in the system show issues. FF has the talent no dount and well as Hook FF needs another year minimum before he sticks here Hook will stick but may struggle next season. SO all in all Its more of Poile's problem than Trotz.

 

[triggrman]

Where is this quote?

I have no doubt Poile runs things past Trotz. But if he is building a team largely off what a coach tells him, he should be fired without question for that alone.

Brian Burke actually called Poile out on that in the Team USA Article. He kept saying he needed to consult with coaches. Burke told him it's the GMs job to see the big picture, not the coach.

As Dean Lombardi told him, don't overthink it. Poile's overthinking in decisions is exactly why we never catch big fish. He's too busy compiling opinions or being comprehensive-- meanwhile other GMs swoop in and get the job done.

New GM, please.

I don't disagree with you, but I want them both gone.

 

[triggrman]

Where is this quote?

I have no doubt Poile runs things past Trotz. But if he is building a team largely off what a coach tells him, he should be fired without question for that alone.

Brian Burke actually called Poile out on that in the Team USA Article. He kept saying he needed to consult with coaches. Burke told him it's the GMs job to see the big picture, not the coach.

As Dean Lombardi told him, don't overthink it. Poile's overthinking in decisions is exactly why we never catch big fish. He's too busy compiling opinions or being comprehensive-- meanwhile other GMs swoop in and get the job done.

New GM, please.

as far as where is the quote. It was in every interview he did in the offseason. If you want to look for it, go ahead. If you don't believe he said that, that's your business.

 

[dulzhok]

as far as where is the quote. It was in every interview he did in the offseason. If you want to look for it, go ahead. If you don't believe he said that, that's your business.

Nah, I don't believe that Trotz said he made the decision to sign these guys, not Poile.

I'm sure he had input and maybe a lot of input, but Poile's the one making the decisions. And if he's not, well he's even more a Nancy than we thought.

 

[PFL615]

It begins

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/...arsay-from-around-the-national-hockey-league/

 

[Gnashville]

It begins

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/...arsay-from-around-the-national-hockey-league/

I am not sure promoting Fenton is anything but Poile 2.0
He is great in his role but is he really ready to be given the keys and drive the car?