Fantasy GM Thread | Heatwave Edition

[TruGr1t]

How is he a 4th liner..Kuzmenko could be sitting in press box by Thanksgiving for all we know?

14 goals ,20 assists /all situations is about right for his salary.

I fully agree though..he is redundant with the new additions..Plus ,difficult to move given the cap climate.

I have the same issue with the Mikheyev contract I did with Pearson. Maybe they're worth it, maybe they fill some needs, but you shouldn't be going rich on depth players when you're not sure you'll have the room to sign your stars and build out the rest of the roster. Simply ... luxuries you can't afford given where the team is in it's cycle and the roster make-up.

 

[Ginger Papa]

Here's the link to the interview. It's 52 minutes long. I'll listen to it later.

Thank you for Posting the Tweet quotes and this link, buddy.

I’m not a fan of Bob either so I would have missed this without your info.

Very candid, yet reasonable conversation with our PHO.


Cheers

 

[quat]

The market has really shaped up as a disaster for the Canucks. Truly worst case scenario stuff.

I don't envy management, there are no silver bullets here. You're about 100 miles from being a contender, but you're cap-strapped and have a 95-point hockey team and a slew of high-end expiring contracts coming up. Brutal situation.

As I've said, there's really only one option here in my mind, and that's taking a hit next year to reset the cap ... probably realistically looking at moving Horvat and Miller. You better knock those trades out of the park though, or you're basically looking at another rebuild given Pettersson's contract situation.

I agree and have tried to say as much a while back, but probably not as clearly and succinctly.
You can't improve the team without taking a few steps back, but those few steps back likely trigger Pettersson leaving. Of course, "staying the course" means the Canucks have little chance of being much more than canon fodder in the first round, which likely triggers Pettersson leaving.
This is the situation Benning created and as many forecasted, it would take years to correct.
It's going to take a very forward thinking approach to get this team out of this Benning hole and its very likely to come at the cost of losing players like Miller, Horvat and possibly Pettersson.
I can't help but think that Horvat is crazy if he resigns here, as there's almost no chance this team does anything of significance for the next five years. That's a whole career of floundering at best or outright suckling at the worst.
I certainly hope this opinion is just a hangover from the Benning years, but I really don't think it is.

 

[quat]

Want to add how much I've appreciated those posters who detailed all the difficulties the team would run into if they weren't careful with the cap management when the team was really struggling. The "cap doesn't mater when you're not competing" narrative was so shallow and we're seeing just how bad the effect can be on a roster.
The Canucks do have some good and great players, but there's just no realistic way of improving the team.

 

[iceburg]

Listened to the whole interview. JR instills confidence because he's candid, clearly understands the dynamics from both the club and player perspective. Doesn't seem that "hope" is his only strategy. Clearly he is working entirely in the best interests of the club and not for his own short term accolades.

The sense is that he and his now robust management team will execute the best course of action given their options. That doesn't mean they will never make mistakes or not miss out on a deal in a specific circumstance. It does mean that confidence in the overall plan and a positive outcome is not misplaced.

 

[Perratrooper]

Just out of curiosity, but if one of Horvat or Miller are moved who would be the preferred choice and what is the ask for either?

 

[Vector]

Just out of curiosity, but if one of Horvat or Miller are moved who would be the preferred choice and what is the ask for either?

It's a pretty even split and is almost entirely based on next contract. It's believed that Horvat, who is also two years younger and the captain, would be willing to accept a bit of a discount while Miller wants to return to the USA and wants a big retirement contract. There's a big gap in play, however. The belief is that Miller is asking for typical retirement contract (8y @ 8.5 per) but with the way Kadri's offseason has gone there's speculation his ask may come down. Horvat's number was floated at 7.5m by our local source, Rick Dhaliwal, but got immediate pushback on that number and it's expected to be lower.

The other factor is Miller should fetch a higher return than Horvat. I'm not completely convinced of that (Horvat is a natural C, he's extremely highly regarded in the room, and he's two years younger) and could see a team talk themselves into wanting Horvat more given Miller's perceived risks (some view him more as a winger that can play C, had a pretty bad reputation before he came to the Canucks and has had bouts of being a whiny baby on the ice).

It's probably a similar price for either. It's expected to be something like one can't miss young player or prospect. Whoever this is the real anchor of the trade. Braden Schneider of the Rangers is the name we know the team asked for last season in a Miller trade. After that it's either a lesser young player or prospect and probably a 1st round pick.

The rumoured proposed trade by the Rangers last season was Chytil, Lundqvist, and a 1st. That was rejected and we've been told similar offers from other teams were floated and the Canucks have continued to turn those down. They want better.

 

[rypper]

Just out of curiosity, but if one of Horvat or Miller are moved who would be the preferred choice and what is the ask for either?

Miller.

Preferred return? A 1st and a young promising defenseman prospect.

Realistic? At this point, in this market I have no idea.

 

[Perratrooper]

It's a pretty even split and is almost entirely based on next contract. It's believed that Horvat, who is also two years younger and the captain, would be willing to accept a bit of a discount while Miller wants to return to the USA and wants a big retirement contract. There's a big gap in play, however. The belief is that Miller is asking for typical retirement contract (8y @ 8.5 per) but with the way Kadri's offseason has gone there's speculation his ask may come down. Horvat's number was floated at 7.5m by our local source, Rick Dhaliwal, but got immediate pushback on that number and it's expected to be lower.

The other factor is Miller should fetch a higher return than Horvat. I'm not completely convinced of that (Horvat is a natural C, he's extremely highly regarded in the room, and he's two years younger) and could see a team talk themselves into wanting Horvat more given Miller's perceived risks (some view him more as a winger that can play C, had a pretty bad reputation before he came to the Canucks and has had bouts of being a whiny baby on the ice).

It's probably a similar price for either. It's expected to be something like one can't miss young player or prospect. Whoever this is the real anchor of the trade. Braden Schneider of the Rangers is the name we know the team asked for last season in a Miller trade. After that it's either a lesser young player or prospect and probably a 1st round pick.

The rumoured proposed trade by the Rangers last season was Chytil, Lundqvist, and a 1st. That was rejected and we've been told similar offers from other teams were floated and the Canucks have continued to turn those down. They want better.

Miller.

Preferred return? A 1st and a young promising defenseman prospect.

Realistic? At this point, in this market I have no idea.

Thank you both for the insight. So would a player like S. Girard be of interest as a starting point for Horvat? He can play both sides (has played his best hockey on the right side next to D. Toews who is a LHD), just turned 24 and is a bonafide #3 and at times can play like a #2.

 

[Vector]

Thank you both for the insight. So would a player like S. Girard be of interest as a starting point for Horvat? He can play both sides (has played his best hockey on the right side next to D. Toews who is a LHD), just turned 24 and is a bonafide #3 and at times can play like a #2.

The problem with Girard, and he's been discussed here before, is that the team already has two small defencemen expected to be in the line-up regularly (Hughes and Rathbone) so if you add in Girard you have one undersized defencemen on every pairing. He's also seen as more of a secondary asset for either player rather than a primary piece. Plus his cap hit would be prohibitive for what he provides given the rest of the roster's construction.

 

[supercanuck]

It's a pretty even split and is almost entirely based on next contract. It's believed that Horvat, who is also two years younger and the captain, would be willing to accept a bit of a discount while Miller wants to return to the USA and wants a big retirement contract. There's a big gap in play, however. The belief is that Miller is asking for typical retirement contract (8y @ 8.5 per) but with the way Kadri's offseason has gone there's speculation his ask may come down. Horvat's number was floated at 7.5m by our local source, Rick Dhaliwal, but got immediate pushback on that number and it's expected to be lower.

The other factor is Miller should fetch a higher return than Horvat. I'm not completely convinced of that (Horvat is a natural C, he's extremely highly regarded in the room, and he's two years younger) and could see a team talk themselves into wanting Horvat more given Miller's perceived risks (some view him more as a winger that can play C, had a pretty bad reputation before he came to the Canucks and has had bouts of being a whiny baby on the ice).

It's probably a similar price for either. It's expected to be something like one can't miss young player or prospect. Whoever this is the real anchor of the trade. Braden Schneider of the Rangers is the name we know the team asked for last season in a Miller trade. After that it's either a lesser young player or prospect and probably a 1st round pick.

The rumoured proposed trade by the Rangers last season was Chytil, Lundqvist, and a 1st. That was rejected and we've been told similar offers from other teams were floated and the Canucks have continued to turn those down. They want better.

I would not be surprised at all, if both were available, that one team would want Horvat badly enough that he gets more in return than Miller.

 

[bandwagonesque]

I think Miller retained would be a great fit for Colorado with Kadri leaving. But with Barron gone, the only real fit coming back would be Newhook.

 

[Kryten]

Thank you both for the insight. So would a player like S. Girard be of interest as a starting point for Horvat? He can play both sides (has played his best hockey on the right side next to D. Toews who is a LHD), just turned 24 and is a bonafide #3 and at times can play like a #2.

Girard and Garland make sense, Horvat and Miller would need to return young C/ better two way D

 

[Perratrooper]

Girard and Garland make sense, Horvat and Miller would need to return young C/ better two way D

So Newhook straight up for Horvat..?

 

[Vector]

Girard and Garland make sense, Horvat and Miller would need to return young C/ better two way D

Doesn't really make sense for the Avs since they are looking to replace Kadri's 2nd line C spot and Garland doesn't do that.

 

[Vector]

So Newhook straight up for Horvat..?

From all reports it would have to be Newhook+. What that plus is, noone is particularly sure but Newhook alone isn't appealing enough. Could be as simple as a 2nd or a good prospect or something. I don't think anyone has any sort of idea what a deal actually looks like.

Also, Horvat hasn't been discussed as a trade target anywhere so we're really guessing on what his value is. In every interview, management has been very open about signing him to an extension and raves about him. I suspect to get Horvat, a team would have to overpay.

 

[theguardianII]

Pretty much confirms that Miller will be traded at some point as the two sides aren’t close and Rutherford doesn’t think they can bridge the gap.
Hopefully it happens before the season starts.

Ya, but the Horvat negotiations are absolutely silent. Hmmm? Boeser, Kuzmenko, Mikheyev and Lazar were done in a heart beat.
Horvat would be one hell of a trade asset. His age, demeanor and reputation make him worth more than Miller.

Retention is the really big asset the Canucks have right now.

 

[Vector]

Ya, but the Horvat negotiations are absolutely silent. Hmmm? Boeser, Kuzmenko, Mikheyev and Lazar were done in a heart beat.
Horvat would be one hell of a trade asset. His age, demeanor and reputation make him worth more than Miller.

Retention is the really big asset the Canucks have right now.

I've said before but the sense I get is that the Canucks and Horvat are so confident they'll get a deal done that they are comfortable waiting for other things to get done first. In every interview where Horvat has been brought up they've raved about him and said a deal will get done.

Now this could all be a smokescreen but, if so, to what end?

 

[theguardianII]

Also, Horvat hasn't been discussed as a trade target anywhere so we're really guessing on what his value is. In every interview, management has been very open about signing him to an extension and raves about him. I suspect to get Horvat, a team would have to overpay.

The silence and admiration in abundance enhance that return value. As I pointed out his age also makes a huge difference

Miller, it is well known that he was never thrilled to be traded to Vancouver and he has voiced dissatisfaction a few times. Used to be they didn't want a player that didn't want to be there in the room. Oh, ya, this room has an issue.

Horvat on the other hand has been that vocal only once and much more subdued. Petey has stated outright his resigning is dependant upon the teams success in playoffs in 2 years.

There is an abundance of examples of body language on the ice too from many players

 

[Vector]

The silence and admiration in abundance enhance that return value. As I pointed out his age also makes a huge difference

Hey, I pointed out his age in another post too!

I just don't see a Horvat trade as realistic unless they get Miller signed. They can't keep both and the belief is that Horvat will come in at a lower number, provide more value over the term of the contract, and is the captain of the team. Now if Miller is signed, then it would be nearly impossible to keep Horvat too.

 

[theguardianII]

Hey, I pointed out his age in another post too!

I just don't see a Horvat trade as realistic unless they get Miller signed. They can't keep both and the belief is that Horvat will come in at a lower number, provide more value over the term of the contract, and is the captain of the team. Now if Miller is signed, then it would be nearly impossible to keep Horvat too.

If they sign either without clearing more space the next 2 years after they are still a disaster. They can't be capped out 2 years from now, there are too many players needing raises, big ones. Kuzmenko if he works out will want 6+mil
Both may have to go or two contracts that size now. Sure Myers, Myers, Myers but he is as important as Horvat or Miller.
Stopping goals is as important as scoring goals albeit winning FO's is very important.

 

[Vector]

If they sign either without clearing more space the next 2 years after they are still a disaster. They can't be capped out 2 years from now, there are too many players needing raises, big ones. Kuzmenko if he works out will want 6+mil
Both may have to go or two contracts that size now. Sure Myers, Myers, Myers but he is as important than Horvat or Miller.
Stopping goals is as important as scoring goals albeit winning FO's is very important.

Let's say the cap goes up by 1m next season. 83.5m Cap

Forwards: Mikheyev, Pettersson, Boeser, Pearson, Dickinson, Garland, Podkolzin, Lazar, and Joshua (32.35m)
Defence: Hughes, OEL, Myers, Poolman, and Rathbone (24.46m)
Goalies: Demko, Martin (5.7625m)
Total: 62.5725m

RFAs: Dermott & Hoglander
UFAs: Miller, Horvat, Kuzmenko Schenn, & Burroughs

So around 21m in cap space to sort that out but also plan for the future. Granted, the team will undergo further changes and this should look drastically different.

My point? I don't really have one. I just think it's important to have some perspective on how this all looks right now if they were suddenly transported 10 months into the future.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

I've said before but the sense I get is that the Canucks and Horvat are so confident they'll get a deal done that they are comfortable waiting for other things to get done first. In every interview where Horvat has been brought up they've raved about him and said a deal will get done.

Now this could all be a smokescreen but, if so, to what end?

No smokescreen..Rutherford constantly praises Horvat, and says he will be re-signed...Thats one signing you can take to the bank.

 

[MS]

I know I wasn't the only one, but thinking Tanner Pearson had positive value heading into this offseason was very wrong.

Yeah…definitely got this about as wrong as possible.

Yup.

In a perfect market, he *should* probably have slightly positive value, but this market is absolutely bizarre.

 

[theguardianII]

Let's say the cap goes up by 1m next season. 83.5m Cap

Forwards: Mikheyev, Pettersson, Boeser, Pearson, Dickinson, Garland, Podkolzin, Lazar, and Joshua (32.35m)
Defence: Hughes, OEL, Myers, Poolman, and Rathbone (24.46m)
Goalies: Demko, Martin (5.7625m)
Total: 62.5725m

RFAs: Dermott & Hoglander
UFAs: Miller, Horvat, Kuzmenko Schenn, & Burroughs

So around 21m in cap space to sort that out but also plan for the future. Granted, the team will undergo further changes and this should look drastically different.

My point? I don't really have one. I just think it's important to have some perspective on how this all looks right now if they were suddenly transported 10 months into the future.

Exactly, and at this point the team should also have cap space too. They should not be capped out then.
They have to get the team in a structure where Petey is the highest paid player but not at 10 mil a season, the team is losing, losing team should not be paying contender money until earned, not given out because they are the best on a non playoff team, been around the longest or fan fav's.
Under Gillis the twins were the highest paid and that team was one of the best in the league for 3+ years.