Fantasy Football Draft Discussion Thread II

[Evilo]

Bailly smart pick there.

No talk about undrafted players

 

[Ajacied]

Yeah typo haha

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Correa was who I was grappling with when I made the Vietto pick

You took the more polished player but the one with lower potential. I had both on my shortlist so, **** you both.

I'm going to assume the lack of picks, is due to the international break and the draft will pick up again once the weekend hits?

 

[Live in the Now]

I think we're also catching time zones bad because of the draft order.

 

[Deficient Mode]

I think we're also catching time zones bad because of the draft order.

I think the time zones are ok for this draft. Three European posters in a row is better than alternating each pick between different continents.

Vas did have the opportunity to make a pick before he went to bed, as it was still in the afternoon in Spain when Ajacied picked. Alas.

 

[Vasilevskiy]

I think the time zones are ok for this draft. Three European posters in a row is better than alternating each pick between different continents.

Vas did have the opportunity to make a pick before he went to bed, as it was still in the afternoon in Spain when Ajacied picked. Alas.

Agreed.
Time zones was not an issue, I just didn't know who to draft and postponed my pick. It's been done now :p

 

[Live in the Now]

Had to take a pure DM/creativo as I don't really have one.

Better than Casemiro imo. Absolutely foolish that Brazil never called him up.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Had to take a pure DM/creativo as I don't really have one.

Better than Casemiro imo. Absolutely foolish that Brazil never called him up.

Jorginho should have been one of the earliest DMs taken. Great pick, and I agree completely that he's a lot better than Casemiro. Conte should have taken him to the Euros as well.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Dier's technical ability and strategic understanding in possession are well below average for his position. Just like Casemiro's.

Why is it relevant if they start for their national team? Countries like Spain and Germany might have 10 or more DMs genuinely better than Dier.

He isn't underrated because he's English. He's overrated because he plays in the EPL.

I don't understand your obsession with a three man midfield. It really isn't that much more challenging than playing in a double 6. No, the bulk of my list wasn't "4-2-3-1" players or even players who play in a 4-2-3-1. But based on a whole 12 matches at national team level he's suddenly a bona fide "lone holder" while many of those others have played a lot more professional matches in a 4-3-3.

I really dislike arguments like this.

This is the same argument people use for/against players with the NHL. Anyone who's great in possession is a good player, and anyone who's bad in possession is a bad player. This argument completely disregards the defensive side of the game, and some think it just won't ever become an issue during the course of a game or a tournament or a season, which is completely out of touch with reality about football.

In a game between two pretty even teams in caliber, you are not going to have a team have 80% possession. A Pep Guardiola plan where he's going to line up with attacking midfielders as an 8, full-backs as CB's, attacking formations with a back three is not going to revolutionize the sport where his teams never lose a game. It'll fail just as much as its successful against teams of a similar caliber because while its true that defense isn't as important if you always have the ball, you won't always have the ball. You'll be out of possession, and you'll have players who can not defend scrambling to cover a teammate losing the ball. You will struggle to defend attacks more than a team that puts out a strong defensive line up. I'm not anti-possession, I just don't like arguments like this. Dier played his style of CM for a team that was probably the most dominant from start to finish last season in the PL. That team had the best defensive record, and second best offensive record. If he was so bad and there are really 10 DM's better than Dier in Germany and Spain, why did Tottenham play so well with Dier playing such an important role?

 

[Deficient Mode]

I really dislike arguments like this.

This is the same argument people use for/against players with the NHL. Anyone who's great in possession is a good player, and anyone who's bad in possession is a bad player. This argument completely disregards the defensive side of the game, and some think it just won't ever become an issue during the course of a game or a tournament or a season, which is completely out of touch with reality about football.

In a game between two pretty even teams in caliber, you are not going to have a team have 80% possession. A Pep Guardiola plan where he's going to line up with attacking midfielders as an 8, full-backs as CB's, attacking formations with a back three is not going to revolutionize the sport where his teams never lose a game. It'll fail just as much as its successful against teams of a similar caliber because while its true that defense isn't as important if you always have the ball, you won't always have the ball. You'll be out of possession, and you'll have players who can not defend scrambling to cover a teammate losing the ball. You will struggle to defend attacks more than a team that puts out a strong defensive line up. I'm not anti-possession, I just don't like arguments like this. Dier played his style of CM for a team that was probably the most dominant from start to finish last season in the PL. That team had the best defensive record, and second best offensive record. If he was so bad and there are really 10 DM's better than Dier in Germany and Spain, why did Tottenham play so well with Dier playing such an important role?

It's even more true in hockey, where a lot more of the time is spent in transition or phases of unclear possession. A defenseman who can't break the puck out is genuinely leagues worse defensively than a player who can, unless there is truly a massive gap in work without the puck (which there rarely is between NHL players).

I have no idea where you come up with numbers like 80%. Even 60% is a massive massive gap.

The vast majority of defending at the best teams is done through collective work and positioning rather than individual work. At Tottenham too. Somehow this still escapes most people.

Was Dier playing against teams of his caliber the whole year as well? Huh. I was under the impression that Tottenham was one of the best teams in the EPL regardless of whether they have a real DM. Same with Casemiro. So really, the success of their teams tells you nothing more about their worth than what you say about the success of Guardiola's teams.

 

[Live in the Now]

For some reason I didn't realize Dembele was already drafted even though I edit the board.

Personally I think he played a little better than Dier. Dembele is a very frustrating player to me though, he had really good attacking qualities and moved to a different league only to never be allowed to use them.

The thing about taking 22 year old DM's is that they aren't in the best phase of their game and have a lot of flaws. Even though I like the player you could see in the Euros that he was a little out of his depth at times. The same thing was the case with even better talents like Mascherano at that age. There are undrafted players that age who also have those flaws.

A good example is his passing percentage. An elite DM usually hits 85-93% passing once they hit the prime of their career. His passing is not quite that tight yet. Ultimately the most important role any DM plays is that they don't give the ball away.

 

[Deficient Mode]

For some reason I didn't realize Dembele was already drafted even though I edit the board.

Personally I think he played a little better than Dier. Dembele is a very frustrating player to me though, he had really good attacking qualities and moved to a different league only to never be allowed to use them.

The thing about taking 22 year old DM's is that they aren't in the best phase of their game and have a lot of flaws. Even though I like the player you could see in the Euros that he was a little out of his depth at times. The same thing was the case with even better talents like Mascherano at that age. There are undrafted players that age who also have those flaws.

Mascherano at 22 had a far better mind for the game in possession than Dier. Paredes last year did as well. Dier is a good player, but I prefer him as a CB rather than as a DM on most top teams.

 

[YNWA14]

Had to take a pure DM/creativo as I don't really have one.

Better than Casemiro imo. Absolutely foolish that Brazil never called him up.

I was going to say that Jorginho was one of the players I had on my list that was better than Casemiro. Absolutely love Jorginho and he was one of two people I was looking at for my next pick. Great pick.

Also if Ribery stays healthy this year that pick is an absolute steal.

 

[Live in the Now]

Mascherano at 22 had a far better mind for the game in possession than Dier.

I'd say in Mascherano's case it wasn't that dissimilar. It took a season and a half of playing for Benitez for things to really come together. A lot of Liverpool supporters were concerned at that time about him giving the ball away and immediately having to take a yellow to stop a counter.

Dier has a similar coach but I very strongly doubt that he'll turn into that reliable of a player. It just isn't very logical, the main reason being that Tottenham isn't the kind of team that will spend to keep their best players or take drastic steps to improve their team so that they can play on top of other sides.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

It's even more true in hockey, where a lot more of the time is spent in transition or phases of unclear possession. A defenseman who can't break the puck out is genuinely leagues worse defensively than a player who can, unless there is truly a massive gap in work without the puck (which there rarely is between NHL players).

I have no idea where you come up with numbers like 80%. Even 60% is a massive massive gap.

The vast majority of defending at the best teams is done through collective work and positioning rather than individual work. At Tottenham too. Somehow this still escapes most people.

Was Dier playing against teams of his caliber the whole year as well? Huh. I was under the impression that Tottenham was one of the best teams in the EPL regardless of whether they have a real DM. Same with Casemiro. So really, the success of their teams tells you nothing more about their worth than what you say about the success of Guardiola's teams.

The Premier League has a lot more competitive games than the other top leagues. You hear that a lot from players when they move to England. They say how every game is that much more important than in whatever league they came from because the average team is that much closer to the top teams in caliber, and thats because the Premier League has a lot more money, so the disparity in money spent is a lot less between first and last than in a league like La Liga. My point about that was that teams at most of the highest levels of the game like the knockout rounds of the Champions League, Euros, World Cup, Copa America, certain leagues where there's a lot of depth, games are going to be very even in possession. Even if you pick a super-possession team, you aren't going to outplay the team in possession so badly where you could field players completely out of position in the defensive positions, and it won't matter because you'll have all of the ball and they'll have none. You are still going to have defending to do, and have to defend against chances from the other team.

You need some type of balance between offense and defense, so to devalue players who play a defensive style of game is really short sided, and you've said yourself that you don't really value players like Casemiro or Dier as much as others, which clearly shows a big bias that goes further than just preferring a more possession oriented player. You are actively rating the Dier's and Casemiro's of the world lower than most others do because most people certainly would not agree that there are 10 better DM's in Germany or Spain.

As for Dier, he is a standout player without the ball. His calling card is the work he does defensively. I agree that in both hockey and soccer there are plenty of players who are bad in possession and not good enough without the ball to make up for their problems in possession, which is a big part of the game, but I think your assessment of Dier is way off. You are right that most defensive work is done collectively, but if you watch the way the teams Dier plays for play, it really is almost like a 4-1-4-1 where he has considerably more defensive responsibility than the average holding midfielder.

 

[Live in the Now]

The Premier League has a lot more competitive games than the other top leagues.

Well this isn't really true either. Only for Juventus, Bayern, PSG, Barcelona, and Real Madrid do they play less competitive games. But players that move to England are usually not from those teams.

You hear that a lot from players when they move to England. They say how every game is that much more important than in whatever league they came from because the average team is that much closer to the top teams in caliber, and thats because the Premier League has a lot more money, so the disparity in money spent is a lot less between first and last than in a league like La Liga.

It is probably true for some players. Especially when you consider that some players only go to England so they can get a big money move to a different team. Every game would be the biggest of their life in that case. I can think of a few this applies to. Mane at Southampton would be one. Kante another. This is not because they care about the teams they are playing, though. I can't really name many other examples though because of this format, but if you think players move there for competition you are very mistaken. The Premier League is the best shop window in the entire world and it's a driving factor in huge wages. Any player with a guaranteed starting spot and an interest in making a lot of money is very smart to go there. Players from places like Argentina definitely don't see England as the stopping point in their career where they stop moving clubs.

 

[Deficient Mode]

I'd say in Mascherano's case it wasn't that dissimilar. It took a season and a half of playing for Benitez for things to really come together. A lot of Liverpool supporters were concerned at that time about him giving the ball away and immediately having to take a yellow to stop a counter.

Dier has a similar coach but I very strongly doubt that he'll turn into that reliable of a player. It just isn't very logical, the main reason being that Tottenham isn't the kind of team that will spend to keep their best players or take drastic steps to improve their team so that they can play on top of other sides.

Well that was a long time ago, and the game has changed a lot since then. I struggle to imagine Dier maturing into the player that Mascherano is. Mascherano isn't particularly outstanding technically, but he has a great understanding of positioning with the ball, and picks his passes well. I think CB is a position where it often takes more time for players to mature or get the trust of their coach due to the unique responsibilities of the position, but a lot of DMs were world class players out of the gate. Busquets for instance (even though it took a while for him to gain widespread recognition).

The Premier League has a lot more competitive games than the other top leagues. You hear that a lot from players when they move to England. They say how every game is that much more important than in whatever league they came from because the average team is that much closer to the top teams in caliber. My point about that was that teams at most of the highest levels of the game like the knockout rounds of the Champions League, Euros, World Cup, Copa America, certain leagues where there's a lot of depth games are going to be very even in possession. Even if you pick a super-possession team, you aren't going to outplay the team in possession so badly where you could field players completely out of position in the defensive positions.

You need some type of balance between offense and defense, so to devalue players who play a defensive style of game is really short sided, and you've said yourself that you don't really value players like Casemiro or Dier as much as others, which clearly shows a big bias that goes further than just preferring a more possession oriented player. You are actively rating the Dier's and Casemiro's of the world lower than most others do because most people certainly would not agree that there are 10 better DM's in Germany or Spain.

As for Dier, he is a standout player without the ball. His calling card is the work he does defensively. I agree that in both hockey and soccer there are plenty of players who are bad in possession and not good enough without the ball to make up for their problems in possession, which is a big part of the game, but I think your assessment of Dier is way off. You are right that most defensive work is done collectively, but if you watch the way the teams Dier plays for play, it really is almost like a 4-1-4-1 where he has considerably more defensive responsibility than the average holding midfielder.

I'm so glad you buy into the hype about the Premier League being so much more competitive. Doesn't change the fact that Tottenham is going against less talented teams more often than not, and generally will have more possession than not.

You need each player to be balanced in their work with and without the ball. Including your forwards. You don't need some players to play offense and some to play defense.

It's far easier to make up for the inability of a player to cover a lot of ground (e.g. Kroos) by making the midfield more compact than it is to try to cover up for the inability of a player (e.g. Casemiro and Dier) to govern play and build up play in possession. Conversely, there are very few advantages to be gained by leaving your DM isolated to cover a large portion of the field, but significant advantages to making your team more compact in midfield (generally better in transition situations: regaining the ball or maintaining possession once you've regained it).

People rate Casemiro and Dier so highly because they play for top teams (and apparently their national teams as well). Yes, I think there are a lot of better Spanish or German DMs, whom I will not mention here since they still have not been selected.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Cancelo is a great pick. Damn.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

Cancelo is a great pick. Damn.

Everything I do is great.

Seriously though pleasantly surprised he lasted this long. Was worried he slip by my fingers, wanted him when I drafted Vazquez but the Banega forced my hand. It worked out in the end and with that...I'll take my trophy now.

 

[Deficient Mode]

Everything I do is great.

Seriously though pleasantly surprised he lasted this long. Was worried he slip by my fingers, wanted him when I drafted Vazquez but the Banega forced my hand. It worked out in the end and with that...I'll take my trophy now.

I thought I was the only one around who rated him super highly lol.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Yes, I think there are a lot of better Spanish or German DMs, whom I will not mention here since they still have not been selected.

I watch plenty of leagues, not just the Premier League. I don't think the Premier League is overrated. More than anything, I think English players are occasionally overrated because English teams need to hit the English player requirements and England just isn't at the same level that Germany or Spain are at with producing players, so the Premier League has more players not from the country of where the league is played, thus English players are more valuable to hit those English player requirements. The big teams in that league are struggling the last few years. We all know that if Manchester United gets back to playing well, they are right up there with Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich competing for the very top players, spending the most money, performing the best in these European competitions. Arsenal has been very good in the past, but has been so poorly managed the last five years by Wenger who just isn't a good manager anymore. They are close to being good, but don't spend the money needed in one or two positions and refuse to fire a manager who isn't that good anymore. Also, Liverpool is another club with tons of prestige that was competing near the top of Europe rather recently. You have to figure eventually they turn things around. Chelsea has been up and down, City has attempted to buy their way to being a top team in Europe, but it takes time. There is potential for Premier League clubs to be contending to be among the best in Europe. They just aren't right now. I don't think thats basis for saying the Premier League is overrated. Teams that spend more money usually are the best teams. English teams aren't such bad judges of talent that they can spend about two times as much as Spanish and German teams at the bottom of the table, yet the Spanish teams get better talent. Thats just not very likely. I think after the first few teams where I've already said English teams have struggled the last few years, English clubs are superior to German and Spanish clubs, mostly because they spend a lot more money.

I'd also like a list of ten Spanish and ten German DM's better than Dier, or maybe you want to back off that. You can send that by PM.

 

[Savant]

Dier and Jorginho are both good but both do different things.

Some people like pepperoni pizza. Some people like mushroom pizza.

 

[Duchene2MacKinnon]

I thought I was the only one around who rated him super highly lol.

He was one of the few bright spots on a **** Valencia team. He rarely gets talked about but given his age, they're aren't many better at his position.

 

[Deficient Mode]

I think after the first few teams where I've already said English teams have struggled the last few years, English clubs are superior to German and Spanish clubs, mostly because they spend a lot more money.

And yet Spanish teams continue to smash the mid-table EPL clubs in the EL year after year. Makes me think. Maybe they'd smash their low table counterparts as well.

Dier and Jorginho are both good but both do different things.

Some people like pepperoni pizza. Some people like mushroom pizza.

I don't like pizza. Just good footballers.

He was one of the few bright spots on a **** Valencia team. He rarely gets talked about but given his age, they're aren't many better at his position.

Yeah, his play this season was especially impressive given how bad Valencia as a whole were. Barca or Real will come for him before long.

 

[MrFunnyWobbl]

And yet Spanish teams continue to smash the mid-table EPL clubs in the EL year after year. Makes me think. Maybe they'd smash their low table counterparts as well.




I don't like pizza. Just good footballers.



Yeah, his play this season was especially impressive given how bad Valencia as a whole were. Barca or Real will come for him before long.

LITN it's time to ban DM.