News Article: Fans Back in The Stands

[Ryder71]

What I fail to understand here is how so many of you brings it back to an individual choice. People not wearing a mask are not choosing a brand of soap or a movie to watch. They are choosing to deliberately put OTHER PEOPLE'S LIFE in danger in the name of their right to choose. As I mentioned earlier, it might be a cultural difference between Canada and the USA, but I REALLY have a hard time understanding the logic. Anyway, I won't debate you on this, I think I do not place as much importance on individual choices as some of you do and that's fine.

Some people are too dumb to make smart choices OR too selfish to make choices that won't negatively affect a large portion of the population, that's why societies have rules and laws. Rules and laws that are framed, at least in Western societies, to GUARANTEE to a maximum of individuals that their rights and freedoms will be respected. Freedom does not mean that you are free to put your fellow man in danger without potentially facing consequences. If you drive like a maniac and kill someone, you can get prosecuted for manslaughter. Not wearing a mask when there is a mask mandate could be seen the same way (and, no, I do not believe people SHOULD be prosecuted). Reducing things like mask wearing to a personal choice IN THE MIDDLE OF A DEADLY pandemic is very hard for me to understand. It seems way more about core values/beliefs than about the particular situation. And that's fine, as the cultural minority here, I won't try to impose my World views on you guys. I am just trying to understand the logic behind a very widespread way of seeing things. As I said many times, I feel it might be deeply cultural.

I firmly belief that everything in life as a context. I also firmly belief that every decision, either individual or collective, should take context into account. I try not to let any dogmatic ideas of... anything impair my judgment. Easier said than done considering we all have cultural biases.

People drink and drive, their putting others very much in harms way. If it were up to me I'd ban alcohol consumption all together (because I don't drink). And even if I did drink I certainly wouldn't be inconsiderate and drive afterwards. TBH I think these matters are more about humanity than the virus itself. People are largely selfish and take a very myopic and self indulgent approach to things. The Virus just helps illuminate these frailties.

 

[Pens1566]

Mostly from other co-morbidities that COVID pushed over the edge. It's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

This seems like a fairly callous way to write off a large portion of the population.

Population-Based Estimates of Chronic Conditions Affecting Risk for Complications from Coronavirus Disease, United States

 

[Scandale du Jour]

People drink and drive, their putting others very much in harms way. If it were up to me I'd ban alcohol consumption all together (because I don't drink). And even if I did drink I certainly wouldn't be inconsiderate and drive afterwards. TBH I think these matters are more about humanity than the virus itself. People are largely selfish and take a very myopic and self indulgent approach to things. The Virus just helps illuminate these frailties.

Well, if you get CAUGHT drinking and driving, you are losing your license. You still can drink... but you can't drive when you do. Prohibition was tried and created more problems than it fixed.

I think the exact same logic should apply to the pandemic. We need TEMPORARY measures to reduce cases, hospitalizations and deaths. If you do not comply, there needs to be consequences. It is not a matter of personal choice. That being said, if authorities have determined it is safe to have 15% capacity in the arena, then, YES, it is legally a matter of choice.

But, yeah, I agree about your comment about humanity. Maybe I am naively hopeful, but I think we can be better than that.

 

[Ryder71]

Don't let anyone call you like, a sociopath for that.

This was society's default position 365 days ago.

I can speak to this. I lost my Great Grandmother at 89 years of age. I loved her dearly, she was my favorite relative. Blessed to have her until I was 24. but she lived a long, satisfying, challenging (at times) but rewarding life. By contrast My brother was killed at age 16 and never had the chance to find happiness, get married, raise a family, have a career, hang out with his brother as an adult etc. I see a huge disparity there.

 

[ChaosAgent]

I can speak to this. I lost my Great Grandmother at 89 years of age. I loved her dearly, she was my favorite relative. Blessed to have her until I was 24. but she lived a long, satisfying, challenging (at times) but rewarding life. By contrast My brother was killed at age 16 and never had the chance to find happiness, get married, raise a family, have a career, hang out with his brother as an adult etc. I see a huge disparity there.

I'm sorry for both of your losses, but especially for your brother.

That really sucks. Hope your family was able to heal.

 

[Ryder71]

I'm sorry for both of your losses, but especially for your brother.

That really sucks. Hope your family was able to heal.

He died two days after Christmas. All these years later it still stings a bit. But I very much appreciate your sentiment.

 

[Gurglesons]

What I fail to understand here is how so many of you brings it back to an individual choice. People not wearing a mask are not choosing a brand of soap or a movie to watch. They are choosing to deliberately put OTHER PEOPLE'S LIFE in danger in the name of their right to choose. As I mentioned earlier, it might be a cultural difference between Canada and the USA, but I REALLY have a hard time understanding the logic. Anyway, I won't debate you on this, I think I do not place as much importance on individual choices as some of you do and that's fine.

Some people are too dumb to make smart choices OR too selfish to make choices that won't negatively affect a large portion of the population, that's why societies have rules and laws. Rules and laws that are framed, at least in Western societies, to GUARANTEE to a maximum of individuals that their rights and freedoms will be respected. Freedom does not mean that you are free to put your fellow man in danger without potentially facing consequences. If you drive like a maniac and kill someone, you can get prosecuted for manslaughter. Not wearing a mask when there is a mask mandate could be seen the same way (and, no, I do not believe people SHOULD be prosecuted). Reducing things like mask wearing to a personal choice IN THE MIDDLE OF A DEADLY pandemic is very hard for me to understand. It seems way more about core values/beliefs than about the particular situation. And that's fine, as the cultural minority here, I won't try to impose my World views on you guys. I am just trying to understand the logic behind a very widespread way of seeing things. As I said many times, I feel it might be deeply cultural.

I firmly belief that everything in life as a context. I also firmly belief that every decision, either individual or collective, should take context into account. I try not to let any dogmatic ideas of... anything impair my judgment. Easier said than done considering we all have cultural biases.

This is the American ethos though.

I don't agree with it, but at the same time. People in America are going to do what they want to do because they believe that is what it is to be American.

 

[Gurglesons]

It seems Americans are the outliers, for the most part. Which explains a fair bit.

Okay. But, 25 of the NHL teams are in America so it isn't surprising that most of them will have fans this year.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Mostly from other co-morbidities that COVID pushed over the edge. It's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

If not for covid, they wouldn't be dead. The threat was always that it would overwhelmingly affect the vulnerable population.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Okay. But, 25 of the NHL teams are in America so it isn't surprising that most of them will have fans this year.

It's not surprising, no.

 

[ChaosAgent]

If not for covid, they wouldn't be dead. The threat was always that it would overwhelmingly affect the vulnerable population.

Over the longer-term, let's see.

Yes the 500K deaths matched up with excess mortality last year perfectly and so COVID was responsible, but it's possible that excess mortality will go to 0 or negative this year even while they are still a few hundred COVID deaths a day in the US. In fact I think it is likely to happen.

Excess Deaths Associated with COVID-19

 

[NeedleInTheHay]

Here in Florida we've lived by different rules for over a year. In 12 months I've: gotten married with over 100 guests in close attendence (not a single case), worked from home a total of 14 days.....been in the office every single day otherwise (not one coworker has contracted it). I have a coworker who's brother lives in California - who can't go for a jog without SWAT tackling him....yet, the rates are better here. You wouldn't know it because our media is a circus (with -by the way - NO interest in hurting Florida's reputation.....do a little research and realize that the two largest locations for media in the United States are New York and California....any idea which 2 states lose the most GDP to Florida/Texas?...last year alone over 2 billion tax dollars/income dollars left NY for Florida...but hey, Florida man, amirite?). My wife works in the public school system - and you know what? Kids have been fine...they were always fine. Those with insane chronic conditions? Yeah, keep them home - the other 99%? Why hold back their future?

Believe what YOU choose to believe, but what I've seen is family members who followed every single guideline possible get COVID (ironically they were retired or working from home) - the young rebounded within a day or 4 and the old took weeks to recover....I've seen local economies absolutely crushed only to see gray-hairs out golfing every day not giving a F. So I'm supposed to have my kids pay incredibly high taxes in the future for all the debts we're incurring to protect a group who A) largely don't care and B) have every single means necessary to not leave their homes in 2020 (groceries/meds delivered, meals delivered, entertainment, hygeine).

Get this shit on the road. Make your own choices. Go to an arena - wash your hands - if you're sick stay home. If you're worried about folks who are sick and don't care then don't go to the game - absolutely nobody is forcing you to attend.

That is a straight lie about California.

 

[Gurglesons]

That is a straight lie about California.

nah, I was tackled yesterday while my son was scootering.

 

[molon labe]

nah, I was tackled yesterday while my son was scootering.

Ah weird I there were literally SWAT teams on the corners.

 

[Gurglesons]

Ah weird I there were literally SWAT teams on the corners.

Nah those are just Cholo Goths.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Over the longer-term, let's see.

Yes the 500K deaths matched up with excess mortality last year perfectly and so COVID was responsible, but it's possible that excess mortality will go to 0 or negative this year even while they are still a few hundred COVID deaths a day in the US. In fact I think it is likely to happen.

Excess Deaths Associated with COVID-19

Given how monumentally a lot of conservative (mindset, not political) projections undershot covid's impact last year, I'd say it makes sense to proceed with caution.

 

[Fordy]

I don't value young life over elderly life.

i do

 

[Fordy]

What I fail to understand here is how so many of you brings it back to an individual choice. People not wearing a mask are not choosing a brand of soap or a movie to watch. They are choosing to deliberately put OTHER PEOPLE'S LIFE in danger in the name of their right to choose. As I mentioned earlier, it might be a cultural difference between Canada and the USA, but I REALLY have a hard time understanding the logic. Anyway, I won't debate you on this, I think I do not place as much importance on individual choices as some of you do and that's fine.

Some people are too dumb to make smart choices OR too selfish to make choices that won't negatively affect a large portion of the population, that's why societies have rules and laws. Rules and laws that are framed, at least in Western societies, to GUARANTEE to a maximum of individuals that their rights and freedoms will be respected. Freedom does not mean that you are free to put your fellow man in danger without potentially facing consequences. If you drive like a maniac and kill someone, you can get prosecuted for manslaughter. Not wearing a mask when there is a mask mandate could be seen the same way (and, no, I do not believe people SHOULD be prosecuted). Reducing things like mask wearing to a personal choice IN THE MIDDLE OF A DEADLY pandemic is very hard for me to understand. It seems way more about core values/beliefs than about the particular situation. And that's fine, as the cultural minority here, I won't try to impose my World views on you guys. I am just trying to understand the logic behind a very widespread way of seeing things. As I said many times, I feel it might be deeply cultural.

I firmly belief that everything in life as a context. I also firmly belief that every decision, either individual or collective, should take context into account. I try not to let any dogmatic ideas of... anything impair my judgment. Easier said than done considering we all have cultural biases.

you do not have to be drunk to kill someone in a car. every time you drive, you are a vector that could kill someone in an accident. luckily, we don't ban all driving because of that, and no one feels guilty for driving because of it

 

[Scandale du Jour]

you do not have to be drunk to kill someone in a car. every time you drive, you are a vector that could kill someone in an accident. luckily, we don't ban all driving because of that, and no one feels guilty for driving because of it

Mmmmm, sure. But what's the link between that and the debate about masks?

 

[Fordy]

Mmmmm, sure. But what's the link between that and the debate about masks?

i don't know! everyone keeps bringing up drunk driving!

i guess it's their go to example of a risky behavior? but it falls apart under any scrutiny, the decision to drive at all, sober, causes more deaths in a year than drunk driving alone. "even one death is too many"

 

[Gurglesons]

Given how monumentally a lot of conservative (mindset, not political) projections undershot covid's impact last year, I'd say it makes sense to proceed with caution.

But you have to agree if they are going to allow indoor dining there is no point in stopping hockey games right?

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Nah those are just Cholo Goths.

You sure it wasnt ms13

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

But you have to agree if they are going to allow indoor dining there is no point in stopping hockey games right?

I think that if one wants to look for inconsistencies, there's probably a way to justify not taking any precautions at all.

Restaurants shouldn't open their doors IMO - gyms either FWIW, and I loved going to the gym - but it is a lot harder for a smaller business to stay afloat than the Penguins or the NHL. They're going to be here in the fall regardless.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think that if one wants to look for inconsistencies, there's probably a way to justify not taking any precautions at all.

Restaurants shouldn't open their doors IMO - gyms either FWIW, and I loved going to the gym - but it is a lot harder for a smaller business to stay afloat than the Penguins or the NHL. They're going to be here in the fall regardless.

Their are plenty of people that make their living working for the Penguins though that could easily lose their jobs.

I dunno, I just don't see the problem with having teams have crowds. If they start seeing tons of cases from it, sure stop it.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Mostly from other co-morbidities that COVID pushed over the edge. It's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

My pre-existing conditions don't make me less deserving of life, ****.