Post-Game Talk: Fair play to Koskco

[LTIR]

Bear might already be drawing in by then

It might be smart to go 7 D again instead of making Bouchard play LD all game.

 

[DropTheGloves]

I’m impressed at how thoroughly you are all dunking on dropthegloves yet he just keeps going and going and going and going and......

I'm starting to understand that "winning" an argument here is just a contest around who can shove their head deepest in the sand and get the most seal claps for it. There are a handful of logical folks who are willing to look beyond blind homerism (@Drivesaitl and @I am the Liquor among them, @Aerchon too though we vehemently disagreed prior on Broberg) and understand this team and their performance thus far deserves criticism. Everyone else ITT is too busy denying reality to really be worth engaging beyond a surface level. I guess that shouldn't surprise me on an Oilers message board but it's sad we as a group can't talk hockey and be honest about things rather than trying to run out wrongthink.

 

[shoop]

Yes, I'm clearly exaggerating that the team has to play better in order to be successful. Man, we as a fan base really do deserve the last 15 years, don't we?

This is the clear exaggeration.

Beating Ottawa 20-1 each game means as much as beating them 3-2.

That they played like crap and eeked out a bad team the last two nights? That's what happened, but your reality is clearly different than mine.

How is beating a team 20-1 eeking out a win?

Man, we as a fan base really do deserve the last 15 years, don't we?

This is your conclusion? Unrelated to the previous posts but if you feel that way so be it.

 

[Aerchon]

I'm talking about the quality of the teams. Again, if you think Ottawa is the team level of team as the others we have to beat to make the playoffs, I'm really not sure what you're watching.

You clearly aren’t picking up what I’m putting down.

And you seem unable to understand what he's saying, I'm really not sure what to say to this.

He's trying to put wins against Ottawa on the same level as those against a Toronto or Montreal. I shouldn't even need to address why that's irrational.

Read it again... slowly.

I probably shouldn't even put a foot in this but here goes.

@DropTheGloves They are saying that since Ottawa has challenged and beat teams they are not free wins.

This argument is ridiculous of course as you point out, but technically correct. They are taking a path of using outlying circumstances to prove a point adjacent to the primary one and claiming you are arguing something completely different. Which of course you are not, but for whatever reason this apparently is the more popular point of view.

Edit: Don't bother to go down this road. Just know that 1 + 1 = 2 and 1.00001 + 1.00001 = 2.00002 but people with common sense will just round up and use 1 + 1 = 2.

 

[TB12]

I'm starting to understand that "winning" an argument here is just a contest around who can shove their head deepest in the sand and get the most seal claps for it. There are a handful of logical folks who are willing to look beyond blind homerism (@Drivesaitl and @I am the Liquor among them, @Aerchon too though we vehemently disagreed prior on Broberg) and understand this team and their performance thus far deserves criticism. Everyone else is too busy denying reality to really be worth engaging beyond a surface level.

I’m only referring to THIS conversation you’ve carried on for several pages.

Everyone is agreeing with you that Ottawa isn’t great....what they are saying (that you choose to keep ignoring) is that Ottawa also beat Toronto and Montreal.

No one is saying this team is perfect. But to beat ANY team in the NHL four games in a row is hard. And the Oilers just accomplished it. We all have our issues with the team, no ones head is in the sand, and we all hope they play better.

*seal clap

 

[DropTheGloves]

This is the clear exaggeration.

Yes, I already got that you think playing well to win = a gross exaggeration in your mind. I have to believe that your bar has been so lowered by this team's constant failures that you can't rightly assess what success looks like.

How is beating a team 20-1 eeking out a win?

Beating a team 20-1 nets us the same 2 points as a 3-2 win so running up the score on Ottawa is neither a) useful b) indicative of anything. That's my point, maybe you missed it in your mad rush to defend the Oilers and their performance.

This is your conclusion? Unrelated to the previous posts but if you feel that way so be it.

It's definitely related. If we don't ever demand more than a shit sandwich we'll always get a shit sandwich. But that would take criticizing something we love and there's no room for that.

 

[Canovin]

I'm starting to understand that "winning" an argument here is just a contest around who can shove their head deepest in the sand and get the most seal claps for it. There are a handful of logical folks who are willing to look beyond blind homerism (@Drivesaitl and @I am the Liquor among them, @Aerchon too though we vehemently disagreed prior on Broberg) and understand this team and their performance thus far deserves criticism. Everyone else is too busy denying reality to really be worth engaging.

Both posters who would have traded Pulju if given the chance when Holland took over? Not quoting Aerchon**

Sometimes it okay to enjoy a win. 4 wins against any team is still a hard feat. We gotta look at the positives more than the negative here. Scoring from defense and the bottom 6. That's what we asked for all year and we got it. Drai and McDavid can take the night off.

 

[DropTheGloves]

I probably shouldn't even put a foot in this but here goes.

@DropTheGloves They are saying that since Ottawa has challenged and beat teams they are not free wins.

This argument is ridiculous of course as you point out, but technically correct. They are taking a path of using outlying circumstances to prove a point adjacent to the primary one and claiming you are arguing something completely different. Which of course you are not, but for whatever reason this apparently is the more popular point of view.

Thank you. Yes, there's this weird semantic game being played where Ottawa beat TOR/MON in a pair of obvious fluke performances so therefore they're as good as TOR/MON. The standings and actually watching the Sens would tell you otherwise, but that would mean taking off one's orange and blue glasses.

 

[shoop]

Yes, I already got that you think playing well to win = a gross exaggeration in your mind.

When I quoted the example of your exaggeration I meant for you to look at the words I actually quoted. Sorry if that wasn't abundantly clear.

Beating a team 20-1 nets us the same 2 points as a 3-2 win so running up the score on Ottawa is neither a) useful b) indicative of anything. That's my point

That would be a great point if the Oilers had actually been running up the score against the Senators. The Oilers haven't been running up the score on the Senators. Why are you making a point that has ZERO relationship to the reality of the situation?

It's definitely related. If we don't ever demand more than a shit sandwich we'll always get a shit sandwich.

Perhaps you think you have made your 'shit sandwich' case. You haven't. Not even close.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

I'm starting to understand that "winning" an argument here is just a contest around who can shove their head deepest in the sand and get the most seal claps for it. There are a handful of logical folks who are willing to look beyond blind homerism (@Drivesaitl and @I am the Liquor among them, @Aerchon too though we vehemently disagreed prior on Broberg) and understand this team and their performance thus far deserves criticism. Everyone else ITT is too busy denying reality to really be worth engaging beyond a surface level. I guess that shouldn't surprise me on an Oilers message board but it's sad we as a group can't talk hockey and be honest about things rather than trying to run out wrongthink.

It would help you to win an argument, if you actually spent the time to read the original post that you tried to start arguing against, instead of consistently getting it wrong and standing your ground.

 

[DropTheGloves]

When I quoted the example of your exaggeration I meant for you to look at the words I actually quoted. Sorry if that wasn't abundantly clear.

You quoted me basically saying that the Oilers need to play better than they have been to be successful. I get why that's a painful pill of truth, but there's no "exaggeration" there and you're letting your homerism run rampant if you think it is. I don't know what else to say on that point.

That would be a great point if the Oilers had actually been running up the score against the Senators. The Oilers haven't been running up the score on the Senators. Why are you making a point that has ZERO relationship to the reality of the situation?

I'll repeat it again for you: it doesn't matter by how much or how often we beat Ottawa in those nine games, because it's only nine games. If you can correct me on that and show me a schedule where they play 56 games, please do.

Perhaps you think you have made your 'shit sandwich' case. You haven't. Not even close.

I think the last 15 years have done that, but maybe they don't exist to you.

 

[TB12]

Thank you. Yes, there's this weird semantic game being played where Ottawa beat TOR/MON in a pair of obvious fluke performances so therefore they're as good as TOR/MON. The standings and actually watching the Sens would tell you otherwise, but that would mean taking off one's orange and blue glasses.

NO ONE IS SAYING OTTAWA IS AS GOOD AS TORONTO OR MONTREAL.

My god. Stop with the straw man. You’re either being deliberately obtuse or just trying to stir posters up.

The posters are saying that any team can beat anyone on any given night. Even a terrible team like Ottawa can beat the top 2 teams in the North. Do you get this? Is this clear?

Therefore, we can critique the Oilers win and hope they play better but also be happy that they won because on any given night a team can lose due a multitude of reasons: shitty goaltending, bad reffing, fluke goal, etc.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

A “free space” that both top teams in the division failed to get once.

If you are unable to tell the difference between beating a team that is 2-11 and one that is 8-2/10-2 I'm really not sure what to say.

This whole argument started because you couldn't understand a simple post, and tried to be condescending to Kosko, while completely missing his point.

And then you come out and say everyone has their head buried in the sand because they don't agree with you, maybe your head is buried in the sand if you cant read a simple 10 word post and understand what he's saying.

 

[BoldNewLettuce]

Thank you. Yes, there's this weird semantic game being played where Ottawa beat TOR/MON in a pair of obvious fluke performances so therefore they're as good as TOR/MON. The standings and actually watching the Sens would tell you otherwise, but that would mean taking off one's orange and blue glasses.

I wonder if Toronto and Montreal are overhyped.

I hate Toronto and their defense seems trashy. Montreal....you just have to wonder if their forwards will hold up....that said....they are sort of built like Carolina or Vegas with shit trash in terms of top 10 talent up front but some fast and deep lines.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

NO ONE IS SAYING OTTAWA IS AS GOOD AS TORONTO OR MONTREAL.

My god. Stop with the straw man. Your either being deliberately obtuse or just trying to stir posters up.

The posters are saying that any team can beat anyone on any given night. Even a terrible team like Ottawa can beat the top 2 teams in the North. Do you get this? Is this clear?

Therefore, we can critique the Oilers win and hope they play better but also be happy that they won because on any given night a team can lose due a multitude of reasons: shitty goaltending, bad reffing, fluke goal, etc.

I wish I knew a way that the Oiler's could of done better than 4 regulation wins in 4 games against Ottawa.

Maybe next set of 4, they'll go for 5 wins.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

I wonder if Toronto and Montreal are overhyped.

I hate Toronto and their defense seems trashy. Montreal....you just have to wonder if their forwards will hold up....that said....they are sort of built like Carolina or Vegas with shit trash in terms of top 10 talent up front but some fast and deep lines.

Montreal is the best team in the division IMO.

 

[shoop]

You quoted me basically saying that the Oilers need to play better than they have been to be successful.

Maybe that is what you mean, but it is not how it comes across. People can only reply to what you post. Not what you meant when you posted it.

I'll repeat it again for you: it doesn't matter by how much or how often we beat Ottawa

You aren't repeating anything. Good on you for dropping the exaggeration about how much the Oilers are winning by.

I think the last 15 years have done that, but maybe they don't exist to you.

I get the Oilers haven't been pretty good the last 15 years. How is that related to a team that is currently in third in the division? If you are just angry about the last decade and a half and want to vent irrationally about it you have succeeded.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I haven't caught the whole exchange. I do see what the argument is though and is often the case its possible for multiple things to be correct, or on point, whatever.

The way I view it though is 2 Wins against Ottawa is just holding serve. I mean we can't do better, as people have logically pointed out, but losing to Calgary is a 4pt game swing sting whereas winning 2 games against Ottawa, those are not necessarily 4pt games because Ottawa is not in the race, and are not going to be. In a sense the games against Ottawa can be perceived as interlocking games against one club that will clearly not be in the mix.

But another side that hasn't been mentioned is that in professional sports its often the worst opponents that pose the most difficulty getting up for those games. Conversely the Oilers will play best against better teams, and have had that as a habit,a s have most clubs that have superstar players.

Whats essential is for the team to develop spirited rivalry and added dislike and intensity against all clubs and I suspect this will come. I kind of thought the Oilers would struggle to find form early and then start to put it together as season went on.

 

[shoop]

I wonder if Toronto and Montreal are overhyped.

I definitely think Toronto is overhyped.

The Habs look to be for real. The game tomorrow night will be telling.

 

[Drai Fi]

It would help you to win an argument, if you actually spent the time to read the original post that you tried to start arguing against, instead of consistently getting it wrong and standing your ground.

His argument boils downs to “anyone who agrees with me is a logical scholar, but anyone who disagrees is a biased homer who can’t take off the rose coloured glasses.”

Anyone can win in the NHL. The Sens are a young team with obvious holes but that doesn’t mean you take them lightly. You treat every opponent with respect and the idea that if you don’t give your best, they will beat you. There’s no nights off

 

[Tobias Kahun]

His argument boils downs to “anyone who agrees with me is a logical scholar, but anyone who disagrees is a biased homer who can’t take off the rose coloured glasses.”

Anyone can win in the NHL. The Sens are a young team with obvious holes but that doesn’t mean you take them lightly. You treat every opponent with respect and the idea that if you don’t give your best, they will beat you. There’s no nights off

The biggest thing holding them back right now is their goaltending.

They got alot of young skill on that team, and Chabot is a beast.

 

[DropTheGloves]

This whole argument started because you couldn't understand a simple post, and tried to be condescending to Kosko, while completely missing his point.

And then you come out and say everyone has their head buried in the sand because they don't agree with you, maybe your head is buried in the sand if you cant read a simple 10 word post and understand what he's saying.

Like I said, I get it. I’m being a Bad Fan. I’ll agree to disagree with those who feel Ottawa is the same level of opponent as pretty much everyone else in the division. No amount of logic can convince a person (or in this case, a group of people) who didn’t use logic to arrive at their conclusion in the first place. Instead I’ll let them be “surprised” when their fantasy of a playoff series win is dashed again because mean old reality had to intervene.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Like I said, I get it. I’m being a Bad Fan. I’ll agree to disagree with those who feel Ottawa is the same level of opponent as pretty much everyone else in the division. No amount of logic can convince a person (or in this case, a group of people) who didn’t use logic to arrive at their conclusion in the first place. Instead I’ll let them be “surprised” when their fantasy of a playoff series win is dashed again because mean old reality had to intervene.

no one is saying that, why do you keep trying to make stuff up to further your argument? And you telling us to use logic? You can't even read a simple sentence without being condescending while also embarrassing yourself in the meantime.

Please find a single post where people are saying Ottawa is the same level opponent.

You don't get it.

 

[Captain Controversy]

Toronto is just another Edmonton with slightly better forward depth and slightly worse defense.

Montreal has two good goalies, forward depth and good defense.

Each score out of 5
Oilers forward 4.5 defense 3.5 goalie 2.5
Leafs forwards 5 defense 3 goalies 2.5
Habs forwards 3.5 defense 4.5 goalie 4

 

[McShogun99]

Tyson Barrie is like 5th in the league in points when it comes to defence and is a plus player in four of his last five games. Interesting choice to complain about.

He’s been looking good lately but 4 of the last 5 games were against the Senators. The schedule starts to get harder now.