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FlyersMania2

#FireHakstol
Jul 4, 2007
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We never did a rebuild, that was the problem under Holmgren, he never wanted to admit the party was over.
Boston did a reload by trading veterans when they still had value and picking up a bunch of draft picks to go with their remaining veterans.
Hextall got the most he could, but imagine if Kimmo was traded at the 2013 TDL, the haul he could have brought.

You reload when you have lots of talent but need to reshape the roster to get younger, you rebuild when the cupboard is bare and you'd rather burnout than fade away, because "rust never sleeps."

Your definitions versus what happened post 06-07 and then again after our cup run are irrelevant to the state of things. Believe what you want. It's not up to me to challenge your beliefs. Look at the roster from 07 then again post-Richards/Carter trade and now and tell me how many players were the same in those 3 turning points.

In 10 years ONLY ONE player remains on our roster that's the same. Look at 06-07 vs 07-08 then look at 07-08 vs 10-11 then look at 10-11 vs today. The rosters have changed dramatically. Denying that is your choice. Doesn't mean you're right.
 

Striiker

Earthquake Survivor
Jun 2, 2013
89,741
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Pennsylvania
When you are a team that did not do a full scorched earth rebuild and instead are trying to rebuild before the primes of your veteran core are over, the approach Hextall is using is far from a sure thing.

There's a very real chance that the depth and goaltending of this team is not good enough to do any playoff damage by the time the veterans primes are over. Then you have more holes to fill. It becomes an endless cycle.

How many placeholders are really gone? One full-timer (Manning) and one late season call-up for the 4th line(Read). That should really open up some big opportunities next year for another wave of youth! :rolleyes:

Oh and since we don't have an NHL calibre coaching staff, you can tack on a few more years of not being a contender until we get one.
But no approach is a sure thing. This one is as good as any. I don’t think trading every vet would have made this any better or safer. Especially after seeing that they can still play, there’s no reason they can’t be a big part of the team alongside these young guys. And having them here to help them out is good because we don’t want an Oilers situation.

I definitely disagree with your 2nd paragraph. I don’t think it’ll be hard at all to make the fixes necessary in the next couple of years and have a competitive team before guys like Giroux are done. I’m not worried about that at all.

As for the placeholders, Read and Manning open up two spots and if I had to put money on it I’d bet on Filppula being gone too. Lehtera might play, but it’s not a sure thing. As bad as Hakstol is, he did show young guys can consistently be in the lineup if he likes them. Patrick, Lindblom, and Laughton all played the majority of the time because they all have a certain element of grit this the likes, alongside their skill. So if the guys coming in also have that (like NAK for example) I wouldn’t be totally shocked to see Lehtera sit. I just don’t think Hakstol wanted guys like Weal or Leier in becuase he saw them as soft, so he chose the tougher guy. Again, not a defense at all, just what I think his thought process was.

I’m also not so worried about the coaching. His ways to f*** up the roster are being limited and the roster is improving. I think most teams compete in spite of their coaches too, so I don’t see it as a lost cause. Even top coaches you guys praise from the outside get shit on by their fanbases the same way we shit on ours.
 

Rebels57

Former Flyers fan
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Sep 28, 2014
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But no approach is a sure thing. This one is as good as any. I don’t think trading every vet would have made this any better or safer. Especially after seeing that they can still play, there’s no reason they can’t be a big part of the team alongside these young guys. And having them here to help them out is good because we don’t want an Oilers situation.

I definitely disagree with your 2nd paragraph. I don’t think it’ll be hard at all to make the fixes necessary in the next couple of years and have a competitive team before guys like Giroux are done. I’m not worried about that at all.

As for the placeholders, Read and Manning open up two spots and if I had to put money on it I’d bet on Filppula being gone too. Lehtera might play, but it’s not a sure thing. As bad as Hakstol is, he did show young guys can consistently be in the lineup if he likes them. Patrick, Lindblom, and Laughton all played the majority of the time because they all have a certain element of grit this the likes, alongside their skill. So if the guys coming in also have that (like NAK for example) I wouldn’t be totally shocked to see Lehtera sit. I just don’t think Hakstol wanted guys like Weal or Leier in becuase he saw them as soft, so he chose the tougher guy. Again, not a defense at all, just what I think his thought process was.

I’m also not so worried about the coaching. His ways to **** up the roster are being limited and the roster is improving. I think most teams compete in spite of their coaches too, so I don’t see it as a lost cause. Even top coaches you guys praise from the outside get **** on by their fanbases the same way we **** on ours.

You should be, because they will not win a playoff series with Hakstol is coach. Unless that's not a big priority for you. ;)

Also, I would bet on Filppula being back. It's pretty clear he wants a veteran as his 3C. God forbid we have an internal merit promotion. Looking at the available vets, all of the ones that aren't total trash will get some term. Flip is probably the only 1 year option out there. He will be back IMO. Can't wait!!!!
 

duffy9748

Registered User
Nov 26, 2007
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688
We will see about that one :laugh:

Not that it really matters when you have probably the worst coaching staff in the league anyway.

It may not happen all at once, but you’re acting as if Hextall hasn’t been down this path before. Since he’s come here, he’s made it clear there’s a time to build and a time to go for it.

I’m not even trying to be a Hextall apologist. There’s decisions he’s made/stuck with that I don’t agree with, but if you were on board with his plan when he took over, he hasn’t changed that plan and there’s no reason jump off now.
 

Embiid

Off IR for now
May 27, 2010
32,690
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Philadelphia
Cronyism..the scourge of many an organization. For the Flyers it has been ingrained in their la cosa nostra culture far too long especially under Snider. You would have hoped Hextall moved away from it but Holmgren and Clarke are still consulting....and insulting
 
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Rebels57

Former Flyers fan
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Sep 28, 2014
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It may not happen all at once, but you’re acting as if Hextall hasn’t been down this path before. Since he’s come here, he’s made it clear there’s a time to build and a time to go for it.

I’m not even trying to be a Hextall apologist. There’s decisions he’s made/stuck with that I don’t agree with, but if you were on board with his plan when he took over, he hasn’t changed that plan and there’s no reason jump off now.

Here's a scary thought for you..

Hextall said when he took over it wouldn't take 5 years to complete his rebuild.

We are now heading into year 5 and he was just quoted as saying "we are really only in year 2."

That tells me he is going to keep slowly creeping along for another 2-3 years and instead of admitting his initital prediction was wrong, he is making an excuse for himself.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
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[TDL 2007, stole Coburn for Alexander Zhitnik, 2nd rd pick for Biron]
2007-08
signed Briere as a free agent
traded Pitkanen for Lupul and Jason Smith
traded a 1st rd pick to sign Kimmo and Hartnell
traded Forsberg for Upshal and 1st and 3rd
TDL, traded 2nd rd pick for Prospal

This was a reload, you don't sign 32 year old Kimmo and 30 year old Briere in a rebuild.
Couldn't do that today, imagine the cost of Briere, Kimmo and Hartnell in one offseason!
 

FlyersMania2

#FireHakstol
Jul 4, 2007
3,796
3,152
NJ
Here's a scary thought for you..

Hextall said when he took over it wouldn't take 5 years to complete his rebuild.

We are now heading into year 5 and he was just quoted as saying "we are really only in year 2."

That tells me he is going to keep slowly creeping along for another 2-3 years and instead of admitting his initital prediction was wrong, he is making an excuse for himself.

I found that quote odd as well - kind of like him only wanting to take accountability for the last 2 years. It's like no bitch, if you collected a paycheck for this job for 4 years, your work for those 4 years is what matters. It's how it works for the rest of us
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
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You should be, because they will not win a playoff series with Hakstol is coach. Unless that's not a big priority for you. ;)

Also, I would bet on Filppula being back. It's pretty clear he wants a veteran as his 3C. God forbid we have an internal merit promotion. Looking at the available vets, all of the ones that aren't total trash will get some term. Flip is probably the only 1 year option out there. He will be back IMO. Can't wait!!!!

What are the options?

Frost, Vorobyev, MV, Bardreau.
First two are a real gamble at 3C in 2018-19, second two are 4C types.
Laughton is better suited to LW.

So Hextall will look at free agency for a short-term patch, Filppula is the emergency option.
And as soon as Vorobyev looks ready, he'll be up.
Frost is a long shot, but I think Hextall is leaning toward another junior season, he's not dominating the playoffs the way I hoped (compared to say Marner in his PD junior season).

Since I expect Couts and Patrick to average close to 40 minutes, the 3C is not going to play that much next year.
 

Striiker

Earthquake Survivor
Jun 2, 2013
89,741
155,846
Pennsylvania
You should be, because they will not win a playoff series with Hakstol is coach. Unless that's not a big priority for you. ;)

Also, I would bet on Filppula being back. It's pretty clear he wants a veteran as his 3C. God forbid we have an internal merit promotion. Looking at the available vets, all of the ones that aren't total trash will get some term. Flip is probably the only 1 year option out there. He will be back IMO. Can't wait!!!!
I think they can win a series.

That's not minimizing how bad Hakstol is, because he suuuuuuuuucks, I'm just that confident in the players on this roster. ;)

I think if we get any team other than the Pens this year, we absolutely had a chance. They were just our kryptonite.

Against the others...

2-2-1 against Boston
3-1-0 against Washington
1-1-1 against Tampa Bay
2-1-1 against Columbus
2-1-1 against New Jersey
3-0-0 against Toronto
 

Rebels57

Former Flyers fan
Sponsor
Sep 28, 2014
76,759
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I think they can win a series.

That's not minimizing how bad Hakstol is, because he suuuuuuuuucks, I'm just that confident in the players on this roster. ;)

I think if we get any team other than the Pens this year, we absolutely had a chance. They were just our kryptonite.

Against the others...

2-2-1 against Boston
3-1-0 against Washington
1-1-1 against Tampa Bay
2-1-1 against Columbus
2-1-1 against New Jersey
3-0-0 against Toronto

Hakstol isn't helping us win a playoff series. That's for sure.
 

duffy9748

Registered User
Nov 26, 2007
4,842
688
Here's a scary thought for you..

Hextall said when he took over it wouldn't take 5 years to complete his rebuild.

We are now heading into year 5 and he was just quoted as saying "we are really only in year 2."

That tells me he is going to keep slowly creeping along for another 2-3 years and instead of admitting his initital prediction was wrong, he is making an excuse for himself.

I don’t think it’s a reach to say this team could contend for the east with an upgrade at goalie and one big upgrade up front or on defense. Those are more than doable this offseason.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think he said this team would be winning a cup in 5 years. If they aren’t a top team in the East by 19-20, which I fully expect, then I’ll start calling for Hextall’s head.
 
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wasup

Registered User
Mar 21, 2018
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What? It takes five years just to build up the young talent base.
But look at Toronto, they have great young talent, but then it takes years to teach them to win.
Winnipeg is a great example, five years ago they replace Noel with Maurice, he turns them around the next year, 99 points and lost in the first round, followed by 78 and 87 points seasons - no panic, this year they hit their stride with 114 points.
The team was build with drafts from 2011-2015, with Laine in 2016, but it took to 2017 for the talent to jell.

We're being built with drafts from 2014-2018, and it'll probably take until 2020 to jell.
Meantime the team will improve every season and be younger, faster, more skilled and more fun to watch.
This is very true the kids you draft can take a while you usually get one first one second one third and so on per year and not all work out. I. am from Winnipeg and we have been waiting a heck of a lot more years than 4 or 5. Too many on here think you draft a person in two years he is a star it's automatic easy pesie. You have 30 other teams trying to do the same thing it does not always work that well for them all. I suspect next year should be slightly better and the next year even alittle better but till 2020/21 before we can realistically compete and by then hopefully have some assets to move for a player to help get us to our goal.
I have been paitient with Winnipeg and will be the same with Philly ,Rome was not built in a day and the comment earlier by someone of the drafting and developing stage is just about done, is foolish , it's always ongoing .
 

duffy9748

Registered User
Nov 26, 2007
4,842
688
My suspicion is that is what he'll do next summer, prospects have the most value when they've proven themselves in juniors or AHL. It's not worth trading Rubtsov or Allison or . . . right now because their value isn't great enough to land you top talent.

Better to marinate them because for players who aren't elite prospects, their value goes up as they are close to being NHL ready, since they can help a team win now, if they're a couple years away they aren't worth much.

Some of the worst trades are when teams give up on prospects before giving them a chance, for depth players or middle round picks, Patrick Sharp and Justin Williams, for example.

Justin Williams was traded out of necessity but point taken. I think the first round picks will be in play more so than the prospect. I either expect him to move up in the draft or move one for a player that can help now.

Hextall’s plan should have changed when they lucked into Patrick. They should take advantage of all
The ELV’s and bridge deals they’ll have over the next 3-4 years.
 

Rebels57

Former Flyers fan
Sponsor
Sep 28, 2014
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I don’t think it’s a reach to say this team could contend for the east with an upgrade at goalie and one big upgrade up front or on defense. Those are more than doable this offseason.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think he said this team would be winning a cup in 5 years. If they aren’t a top team in the East by 19-20, which I fully expect, then I’ll start calling for Hextall’s head.

I don't disagree. Hextall does though.

Both goalies will be back and no big upgrades are on the horizon.
 

Curufinwe

Registered User
Feb 28, 2013
55,789
42,861
This is very true the kids you draft can take a while you usually get one first one second one third and so on per year and not all work out. I. am from Winnipeg and we have been waiting a heck of a lot more years than 4 or 5. Too many on here think you draft a person in two years he is a star it's automatic easy pesie. You have 30 other teams trying to do the same thing it does not always work that well for them all. I suspect next year should be slightly better and the next year even alittle better but till 2020/21 before we can realistically compete and by then hopefully have some assets to move for a player to help get us to our goal.
I have been paitient with Winnipeg and will be the same with Philly ,Rome was not built in a day and the comment earlier by someone of the drafting and developing stage is just about done, is foolish , it's always ongoing .

Hopefully we end up like Winnipeg where fans wanted the GM and coach fired after only one playoff appearance in six years which they lost 0-4, but then all of a sudden they're a great team. I just don't think that will happen without a coaching change.
 

StateOfHexcellence

Registered User
Mar 31, 2016
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Ashes of Pattison
Great post. I was on the fence coming into this year but this year has sealed my opinion of Hextall.

It was year 4 of the hextall era and the flaws of the team from year 1 are still largely the flaws of the team year 4. Too many mediocre vets that don't help the team in the present or the future. The bottom 6 is still a dumpster fire. The PK is still bottom 5. The #2 powerplay still cannot generate points even close to the league average. A team that doesn't have an identity in 4 years. All of those things can no longer be blamed on Holmgren after 4 years.

When hextall took over, my expectations were that the team would need to rebuild and that meant likely 2 wasted seasons to clear the trash out but with the young core in place hitting their prime by year 3 they would be a young playoff bubble team with at most a trash vet or 2 leftover and probably goalie issues but overall much more positive than negative and a clear direction. Then heading into year 5 we would begin to enter our cup contention window with our main weakness being our young players inexperience and perhaps still goaltending. But 4 offseasons would be enough imo to get rid of the trash vets by either trade buy out or burying in the minors and replacing them with young either drafted or undrafted talent. Giving a gm 5 years to take out the trash and overhaul the roster towards youth is not an unrealistic expectation IMO

Instead, we are heading into year 5 of the hextall era and are still at least 2 years away from being a cup contender based on our playoff showing. We still will have at least 3 useless veterans on the team next year that will hurt our chances at playoffs and serve no purpose for the future. So at what point is it acceptable to be upset with the lack of progress? Year 7? Year 10? Year 15?

Did HExtall every say concretely which year we would play for the cup? I never heard or seen this in print.

He's admitting it's a slower process due to many factors. Things change. Soon as we have stability in net, we will contend for the cup. With the prospect pool and a few fa's we will compete for several cups.
 

deadhead

Registered User
Feb 26, 2014
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Patrick accelerated things, but not by a great deal, he's still a year or two away from being an impact player.
Look at Toronto with Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Kadri and Rielly - a great young core but they still have to build a team around them.

When Hextall says he's only two years in I think he means he his first two years were spent moving out veterans for draft picks, the last two he's been moving in prospects. It may well be he underestimated how much needed to be done, this team wasn't a disaster area like the Devils, but between the salary cap and lack of talent in the pipeline, it wasn't in good shape.

Now like Toronto we have a core of young players to build around, Couts, Ghost, Patrick, TK, Provorov, Sanheim, Lindblom, but you need to build a team - replacing 8 or so scrubs isn't that easy, as we've seen, once you get past the 1st rd you have to cycle through a lot of guys like Weal, Cousins, Luby, etc. and hope to hit on a couple. That's why Hextall has been accumulating 1t rd picks (like this draft), even when you miss the floor is often Laughton, not Leier.

And trades are a hard way to build a team, hard to get something for nothing, so they're more useful reshaping the roster after you've built up talent (too many LHDs? Not enough RHDs? That's when you make a trade).
 

Tripod

I hate this team
Aug 12, 2008
78,858
86,252
Nova Scotia
Here's a scary thought for you..

Hextall said when he took over it wouldn't take 5 years to complete his rebuild.

We are now heading into year 5 and he was just quoted as saying "we are really only in year 2."

That tells me he is going to keep slowly creeping along for another 2-3 years and instead of admitting his initital prediction was wrong, he is making an excuse for himself.
But honestly....we all KNEW the rebuild was not over now. It's why he traded Schenn.

Even at forward, we have 1-2 guys ready to move up....but none are impact guys. The impact guys are the next wave with Frost, Allison, etc...

I dislike Hak and have said he is not a good coach due to who he plays, how much, and his lack of being able to adapt. That has not changed.

But I also DO understand why Hextall has not fired him. As a GM, you usually get 2 hirings for coach. If he fires him now, the clock starts ticking on the 2nd guy right now while the rebuild is still happening. And after a 98 point season, I do understand not doing it now. Especially when Hextall himself has has removed "now piece" for future pieces. And then we all...or most...want Simmonds moved for futures too.

He may view Knob as that future head coach and getting more NHL benchtime for him is likely a good move in his development.

I DO think Hextall will be looking to take that next step next year and has teh cap space and assets to do it. I am going to try and keep an open mind to see what, or who is added. If it's another capdump, then he is dead to me.
 
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