Ex-Rangers on TB Proving AV Was at Fault in NY

[NoQuitInNewMexico]

Almost every team's 6th defenseman is pretty bad (or at least limited) and almost every center in the league would look good with Stamkos and Kucherov.

 

[Machinehead]

Come on man, why isn't Girardi terrible now? Because he plays on a stacked team that's probably gonna win the cup? Is it never possible for a really stacked team to be able to get by with carrying a couple really bad players? Has it never happened before? Good teams have bad players all the time, even the best teams have bad players. Even some of our very own cup winning teams had bad players. That's like saying bad teams have never had good players before.

The 2002-2003 team was icing a defense pairing of Ken Daneyko and Tommy Albelin for an extended stretch during the regular season. Both of them were pretty not good anymore by 2003 and were both 39 years old. Mike Rupp was always a terrible player at the NHL level and he had 4 points in 4 games that playoffs.

Try not to take it personally what I say about Devils fans. You're my hero.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Come on man, why isn't Girardi terrible now?

Why would you think he's terrible? Because of his CF%?

 

[Peiskos]

I was thinking about creating a thread on this topic myself, after watching a video on youtube about Tampa's series win over Boston, Darren Pang brought up all the former Rangers players, and I thought to myself..

Why did the NYR dismantle their team again??? McDonagh, Callahan, Stralman, Girardi, Miller..you look at Hagelin on the Penguins too. Seems like they were a legit contender going to the Conference Final in 2012, the SCF in 2014 and back to the Conference Final in 2015. If they hadn't gutted their roster for seemingly no reason I think they'd still be making deep runs.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

im pretty anti corgis but girardi seems like he hurts you more than he helps you. the other team seems to be driving the play most of the time when he's out there

 

[Bleedred]

Why would you think he's terrible? Because of his CF%?

I was pumping him up as an overrated, overpaid, below mediocre defender since before I even looked up any kind of advanced stat.

He never passed the eye test for me, he gets stuck in his end for too long, blocks shots that don't need to be blocked. He's been on the wrong end of some series winning or changing goals in the playoffs for the Rangers more than once.

I've said the same thing about Brooks Orpik for years, never thought he was good. I don't think that a player stands around in his D-zone, blocking shots, clearing the crease and staying his position (which Girardi doesn't stay in his position sometimes anyway) is a good defenseman. I never have. I've thought these defensemen needed to be phased out and extinct before corsi was even tracked.

Lightning fans keep saying they're satisfied, but just because they have a great team, they're probably gonna win the cup this year if I had to guess, doesn't mean that there aren't maybe two or three not very good players on their team. It's the same thing I say about head coaches. Because Hartley, Carlyle and Disco Dan won cups as head coaches, they're good?

 

[Bleedred]

Try not to take it personally what I say about Devils fans. You're my hero.

It's okay, I actually liked when you made the post about how some of our fans are more worried about the Rangers score than our team. That's one thing that bugged me about our fanbase. It seems like there's a few Devils fans that HATE the Rangers more than they LOVE the Devils. I remember in 1996, that one year we missed the playoffs after winning the cup, but we're in it until the last day of the regular season, the Rangers were playing one of the teams that we were battling with. I don't even remember who. So I said out loud at a game ''YES! Rangers win! We need their help right now!'' and a gaggle of fans are laughing at me saying that we should never root for the Rangers. So I said ''If we make the playoffs over that team by a point, you're gonna tell me that you'll still be mad that the Rangers won that game? Really''.

I found a lot of us were rooting for the Rangers down the stretch this year, when they were playing Columbus or Philadelphia or the other bubble teams. Maybe it was more acceptable as the Rangers were already out of it, but I also feel like there's Islanders/Devils fans (and I've run into an admitted one of these fans online) that like both teams because they hate the Rangers more than they like either the Islanders or Devils. And they root for both teams because both teams hate the Rangers. It's absurd to me. I've had people admit ''I DO HATE the Rangers more than I love the Devils!'' or ''I hate the Rangers and love the Devils equally!''.

Look, I'm not gonna root for the Rangers in the playoffs, I'm almost as happy as them when they get eliminated, but a lot of our fans are so afraid of the Rangers boogeyman and that they need to lose every game, no matter if it helps us or not. It's a major pet peeve of mine.

And I also hate this idea that because a team is really good and stacked and employs a few useless anchors, that there's no way those guys can be useless anchors because they on a REALLY good team, a team that won the cup or will the cup.

And I've always agreed with you on Girardi. I remember getting ganged up on by Rangers fans for arguing that Andy Greene was a lot better than Girardi. He might not be anymore, but that was back when he was not bad.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I was pumping him up as an overrated, overpaid, below mediocre defender since before I even looked up any kind of advanced stat.

He never passed the eye test for me, he gets stuck in his end for too long, blocks shots that don't need to be blocked. He's been on the wrong end of some series winning or changing goals in the playoffs for the Rangers more than once.

I've said the same thing about Brooks Orpik for years, never thought he was good. I don't think that a player stands around in his D-zone, blocking shots, clearing the crease and staying his position (which Girardi doesn't stay in his position sometimes anyway) is a good defenseman. I never have. I've thought these defensemen needed to be phased out and extinct before corsi was even tracked.

Lightning fans keep saying they're satisfied, but just because they have a great team, they're probably gonna win the cup this year if I had to guess, doesn't mean that there aren't maybe two or three not very good players on their team. It's the same thing I say about head coaches. Because Hartley, Carlyle and Disco Dan won cups as head coaches, they're good?

To each their own, I guess I just analyze hockey differently than you.

But its not that Lightning fans are not criticizing him just because they are so good and they don't have a negative opinion of their bad players. They criticize many of their players. I think they do have a more laid back fan-base than Ranger fans, but its not like they won't criticize a player if they are routinely playing poorly.

 

[Flair Hay]

Did anybody actually think McDonough or Miller sucked?

Rangers were a real good team with a good coach. AV was not the reason for their success or failure really. He developed players just fine in Vancouver.

 

[Flair Hay]

No, the rangers just lacked any actual high end talent despite their fan base overrating multiple 50-60 point players (zibinajed Kreider, Hayes, Stepan, brassard ,Callahan) the list goes on but it’s not AVs fault that the teams fan base had too high of expecatations for good second line players

Well said. A superstar was the only ingredient missing and the year they had St Louis they made it all the way to the finals

 

[valet]

that's a terrible argument. TB just has a far better team than NY. of course those guys are gonna look better with more talent around them

 

[Newsworthy]

I don't see how it's much different than the Justin Schultz argument.
But on the flip side Zibanejad and Spooner have been better players under AV.

 

[Calad]

Those former NYR players benefit from proper slotting, both for role and QoC. When you have guys like Kucherov/Stamkos drawing all of the top shutdown units and Hedman drawing the top shutdown assignments, it gives more room to the lesser players.

It reminds me a lot of how the Kings used Phaneuf this year, also a "non-NHL" defenseman according to HF fans of his previous team.

If you've been watching these playoffs, Girardi has been playing with Hedman more often than not

 

[dechire]

Almost every team's 6th defenseman is pretty bad (or at least limited) and almost every center in the league would look good with Stamkos and Kucherov.

Girardi isn't Tampa's 6th D.

 

[Rorschach]

If you've been watching these playoffs, Girardi has been playing with Hedman more often than not

Sure and as a Kings fan, Doughty fan in particular, I can tell you that this also is slotting correctly.

A guy like Hedman makes his parter better and he pushes down other pairs as well.

 

[Calad]

Sure and as a Kings fan, Doughty fan in particular, I can tell you that this also is slotting correctly.

A guy like Hedman makes his parter better and he pushes down other pairs as well.

Your logic seems circular. You claim that players such as Girardi benefit from not having to play vs top line players so that makes him better, but because his partner makes him better that playing him against top players. Which is it?

 

[TeslaCoilFan]

Those former NYR players benefit from proper slotting, both for role and QoC. When you have guys like Kucherov/Stamkos drawing all of the top shutdown units and Hedman drawing the top shutdown assignments, it gives more room to the lesser players.

It reminds me a lot of how the Kings used Phaneuf this year, also a "non-NHL" defenseman according to HF fans of his previous team.

Proper slotting is definitely of benefit for all our former Rangers. It's the magic of Stevie Y and Cooper.

For the last bit of the season and throughout the entire playoffs so far, it's the McDonagh/Strålman pairing that has been drawing all the top shutdown assignments and doing quite well at it. This frees Hedman to feast off of the other lines at will and to not be quite as dependent on who his partner is at a given moment since he's not taking on the top line.

If you've been watching these playoffs, Girardi has been playing with Hedman more often than not

Girardi does indeed play with Hedman the most. However he's not truly a top pairing if you look at the average TOI. Hedman's extra minutes come from being paired with Coburn or Strålman or even Sergachev for a shift or two or three during a game plus being on the 1st PP unit. Girardi is doing fine in his managed minutes usage and is solid on the PK. He's definitely a step up from either Dotchin (play fell off cliff) or Sustr (drunken giraffe/pylon) which is why we Lightning fans have been happy with his performance with us. It's all relative.

Here's their average TOI for the playoffs.
Hedman 26:08
Strålman 22:47
McDonagh 22:25
Girardi 16:59
Coburn 14:40
Sergachev 11:18

 

[VoluntaryDom]

Almost every team's 6th defenseman is pretty bad (or at least limited) and almost every center in the league would look good with Stamkos and Kucherov.

Girardi is on the top pair right now and Miller is a winger.....?

 

[Brock Radunske]

Or maybe they just went from a bad team to a good team?

 

[jw2]

Grabner?

 

[EpicDing]

Rangers were a real good team with a good coach. AV was not the reason for their success or failure really. He developed players just fine in Vancouver.

Spoken truly like someone who hasn't watched the Rangers since 2015. AV lost his mind from the 15-16 season on.

 

[Critical13]

It's almost like when players get traded on to better teams with better support, they also perform better. Crazy!

 

[Critical13]

im pretty anti corgis but girardi seems like he hurts you more than he helps you. the other team seems to be driving the play most of the time when he's out there

How can anyone be anti corgis? They are adorable!

 

[Uncle Dru]

Or maybe they just went from a bad team to a good team?

Girardi played poor hockey on some very good Ranger teams. Albeit impropper usage had a lot to do with it, especially when it was clear to everyone other than AV he couldnt play effectively in his system.

G hurts teams in subtle ways that become not so subtle over time.

 

[The Macho King]

Sure and as a Kings fan, Doughty fan in particular, I can tell you that this also is slotting correctly.

A guy like Hedman makes his parter better and he pushes down other pairs as well.

This is true. It doesn't matter who Hedman's partner is - by having Hedman on it it is a de facto shutdown pair. With his size and speed, he can cover space and as long as you're in roughly the right spot as his partner, he'll handle the rest.

McDonagh is good, but not that good. He struggled when he came here with Girardi as his partner because while McDonagh is a good skater and defender, he's not Hedman. Having him with Stralman makes them formidable, though.

I have to say - one thing having a second #1 has shown me is that Hedman really is *that* good. Because I don't think there's a single facet of the game in which McDonagh has looked nearly at his level (despite playing pretty well at the end of the season and the playoffs).