[Evolving Hockey] Defenseman GAR Ranking for 2019-2020

The Winter Soldier

Registered User
Apr 4, 2011
70,810
21,016
Nice to see Pulock get some respect. He's an animal.
Pulock is in the shutdown D man role for Trotz. He gets the toughest mins on the team. He and Pelech. The one thing about him that is developing is his offence. Now this should not be a surprise, he was an offensive D man in Brandon. So it was surprising to me to see him become a shut down D man first and once he mastered this, the other part of his game, the natural part is coming out. I think he is only going to get better in time, under Barry and Lou.
 

PWJunior

Stay safe!
Apr 11, 2010
42,926
22,771
Long Island, NY
Pulock is in the shutdown D man role for Trotz. He gets the toughest mins on the team. He and Pelech. The one thing about him that is developing is his offence. Now this should not be a surprise, he was an offensive D man in Brandon. So it was surprising to me to see him become a shut down D man first and once he mastered this, the other part of his game, the natural part is coming out. I think he is only going to get better in time, under Barry and Lou.

Pulock was all offense in the WHL, it's actually surprising how much his defensive game has improved even before Trotz. He was actually a forward all his life and only switched to defense when he got to the WHL.

He has certainly put in the work, it took years for him to develop his complete game. He was a defensive liability in his early years in the league.
 

TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
33,360
25,417
Fremont, CA
The eye test is but one element. Advanced stats do matter.

That being said, I will always trust someone who can properly explain the results of their eye test over someone who is good at Excel.

If you are able to explain to me what about the players game you like in plain language, you have infinitely more credibility than someone who does nothing except crunch numbers.

Can you point me to some examples of times you’ve actually seen this done on this forum - particularly with regards to defensemen?

I have been in countless discussions on this forum where I make the argument that a defenseman’s results don’t match up to their reputation, my argument is met with “eye test” or something to that effect, and then I ask the other person to go into detail as to what they see from their eye test. Almost every time this happens, I am met with “he plays big minutes” or “he plays tough competition” and no actual description of what the player does in those minutes. I’d genuinely be curious to read these posts just for the sake of enjoyment because I really do like reading things like this, but I pretty much never see them.

Another thing - while I disagree with your statement, I’ll provide a similar statement that isn’t necessarily mutually exclusive of yours, and that we might be able to agree on: If you can’t even clearly explain what you see with your eye test and why it has led you to form a certain opinion, your argument has infinitely less credibility than an argument which is based on evidence.

Also, somebody who can explain the statistics and what exactly they mean is a lot different from somebody who just crunches spreadsheets on Excel. It takes a pretty strong base of hockey knowledge to do both.
 

The Winter Soldier

Registered User
Apr 4, 2011
70,810
21,016
Pulock was all offense in the WHL, it's actually surprising how much his defensive game has improved even before Trotz. He was actually a forward all his life and only switched to defense when he got to the WHL.

He has certainly put in the work, it took years for him to develop his complete game. He was a defensive liability in his early years in the league.
He is very close to Mccrimon too, Both lost their brothers far too soon. He was one of my favorite prospects in 2013
 

Do Make Say Think

& Yet & Yet
Jun 26, 2007
51,167
9,909
Can you point me to some examples of times you’ve actually seen this done on this forum - particularly with regards to defensemen?

I have been in countless discussions on this forum where I make the argument that a defenseman’s results don’t match up to their reputation, my argument is met with “eye test” or something to that effect, and then I ask the other person to go into detail as to what they see from their eye test. Almost every time this happens, I am met with “he plays big minutes” or “he plays tough competition” and no actual description of what the player does in those minutes. I’d genuinely be curious to read these posts just for the sake of enjoyment because I really do like reading things like this, but I pretty much never see them.

Another thing - while I disagree with your statement, I’ll provide a similar statement that isn’t necessarily mutually exclusive of yours, and that we might be able to agree on: If you can’t even clearly explain what you see with your eye test and why it has led you to form a certain opinion, your argument has infinitely less credibility than an argument which is based on evidence.

Also, somebody who can explain the statistics and what exactly they mean is a lot different from somebody who just crunches spreadsheets on Excel. It takes a pretty strong base of hockey knowledge to do both.

This forum is not a reference point for anything so I won't get into the first part. It goes without saying that the majority of users on HF are clueless about most things in life, let alone hockey.

Sure, your bolded statement works fine. My issue is when someone just posts a graph or a spreadsheet and expects it to argue for them.

I don't have any issues when I listen to people who make a living with advanced stats and they can explain what the stats measured are and why they matter. Serious people don't just take a baseball stat and try to apply to hockey.
 
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The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
48,782
29,314
Found the article I was referencing earlier. The Athletic so - paywall.

Q&A: Steve Valiquette's radical approach to evaluating shots...

Edit: And there's another article today on it that highlights one of the issues I have with calculating shot danger:

One of our shot types has been getting lower and lower every year — clear-sighted shots, ones where the goalie has more than half a second of clear sight on the puck before it comes off the stick from the slot. When you look at most of the public data, that shot from the slot area — home plate, the house, however you refer to it — that would be qualified as a high-danger shot for most companies out there.
That doesn’t qualify as a high-danger shot for us because we’ve looked at roughly 5,000 chances a year on clear-sighted shots that come from the slot. So a player skates into the slot area, unobstructed, has a bit of time and space, shoots and tries to beat a goalie clean. Now, the unfortunate role I have is that I have to go and explain to a team that this year, that shot only went in 7.1 percent of the time.

Steve Valiquette on the NHL's latest trends and why GMs...
 
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My3Sons

Nobody told me there'd be days like these...
Sponsor
Can you point me to some examples of times you’ve actually seen this done on this forum - particularly with regards to defensemen?

I have been in countless discussions on this forum where I make the argument that a defenseman’s results don’t match up to their reputation, my argument is met with “eye test” or something to that effect, and then I ask the other person to go into detail as to what they see from their eye test. Almost every time this happens, I am met with “he plays big minutes” or “he plays tough competition” and no actual description of what the player does in those minutes. I’d genuinely be curious to read these posts just for the sake of enjoyment because I really do like reading things like this, but I pretty much never see them.

Another thing - while I disagree with your statement, I’ll provide a similar statement that isn’t necessarily mutually exclusive of yours, and that we might be able to agree on: If you can’t even clearly explain what you see with your eye test and why it has led you to form a certain opinion, your argument has infinitely less credibility than an argument which is based on evidence.

Also, somebody who can explain the statistics and what exactly they mean is a lot different from somebody who just crunches spreadsheets on Excel. It takes a pretty strong base of hockey knowledge to do both.

To be fair it’s a message board and most posters won’t want to spend the length of time needed to fully explain themselves even assuming they have the skills to express themselves appropriately in writing.
 

biotk

Registered User
Jan 3, 2017
7,091
5,520
Buffalo
Completely agree, I don't doubt there are ways to accurately measure shot quality, but the publicly available data is simply inadequate, no matter how hard these Twitter statisticians contort the numbers. Garbage in = garbage out.

As you said, right now we have just location. We need direction the shooter was skating, how long he's had control of the puck, distance from the shooter to defenders, location of the goalie, and direction goalie is moving, plus if the goalie's view is obstructed.

And look at Sheary's goal below. I remember this shot was worth 0.1 "expected goals." A wide open player shooting into a wide open net. That should be invalidating for xG, but people keep bringing it up like it's worth something.



It is not just shot quality where the publicly available data is inadequate. I brought up this clip that I recorded two weeks ago while re-watching a game. Everyone agrees that it shows 2 high danger chances, or at least scoring chances, but the public data has it listed as nothing...not even a corsi or shot attempt. I tracked a couple games closely to evaluate how accurate the public data is and my conclusion was it is terrible.
 

VoluntaryDom

Formerly DominicBoltsFan / Ⓐ / ✞
Oct 31, 2016
23,285
5,532
Tampa FL
...



I thought the eye test was greater than all? Why have you suddenly switched to numbers from a spreadsheet?

Has it occurred to you that you may be one of the very “poindexters” that you’re criticizing?
quincy2.jpg

maybe he meant Pondexters and he was saying you should be in the nba
 

TomasHertlsRooster

Don’t say eye test when you mean points
May 14, 2012
33,360
25,417
Fremont, CA
It is not just shot quality where the publicly available data is inadequate. I brought up this clip that I recorded two weeks ago while re-watching a game. Everyone agrees that it shows 2 high danger chances, or at least scoring chances, but the public data has it listed as nothing...not even a corsi or shot attempt. I tracked a couple games closely to evaluate how accurate the public data is and my conclusion was it is terrible.

What time in the game did this happen?
 

The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
48,782
29,314
It is not just shot quality where the publicly available data is inadequate. I brought up this clip that I recorded two weeks ago while re-watching a game. Everyone agrees that it shows 2 high danger chances, or at least scoring chances, but the public data has it listed as nothing...not even a corsi or shot attempt. I tracked a couple games closely to evaluate how accurate the public data is and my conclusion was it is terrible.
If I recall - early in the season the NHL was having huge issues with their data. I don't know if these guys like Evolving Wild or whatever just skim NHL data (or from another source), or if they collect their own.

I'll just say that generally - hockey is going to be way harder than baseball, and much harder than Basketball to model. Basketball you have a ton of scoring events, and not a ton of "chaos" on chances. Ball generally goes in or it doesn't - blocks are rare and there are a lot of instances where a perfect defense is irrelevant to scoring. Hockey is just *very* chaotic by nature. The link I posted above that discussed how inefficient "home plate" chances are (with a shot % of 7.1% for what most companies would consider "high danger"), they noted that one of the most common goals (by rate) in the NHL this year were accidental deflections of shots from the point (unscreened).

The next two top scoring sequences in the NHL are actually two different types of broken plays — what we’d categorize as a mid-percentage broken play and then a high-percentage broken play. You can imagine how difficult these things are to put into context when you’re training people to watch the game the way you do.
The simple way of saying it is that a mid-percentage broken play would be a shot that comes, delivered to the net from the point, in the air. The player in front is waving at it, trying to deflect it and it inadvertently hits someone’s elbow or shin pad and ends up in the net. That’s a mid-percentage broken play because the intent was a mid-percentage shot, an in-the-air deflection, no screen.

A high-percentage broken play is a slot-line pass that’s intended for the receiving player. It doesn’t go through and it goes off their skate or their stick. Those went in 434 times last year. It’s neat because when you look at how the puck ends up in the net at the end of the season, the slot line is directly impacted in two of the top three sequences. If you can move the puck from one side of the ice to the other and force the other team to defend, you’re going to get more broken play goals

This guy's theory is that the most dangerous chances come from when the puck goes from one side of the ice to the other. This seems obvious to us, but the question is *how is the available data capturing what we all know to be true*. If you're categorizing a Stamkos/Ovi/Pastrnak one-timer as a low or mid danger shot, something is wrong with your numbers.

Edit: To the extent this comes down to "eye test" versus "analytics", I don't know where a smart person can reasonably fall. It's harder to collect data in hockey than the other sports, so someone is going to have to make some informed judgment calls on the input data for the analytics. Someone's going to need to look and see if that shot was high danger or not. And the tricky thing is making sure that data is *good*.

Your statistical analysis can't be good if the input data isn't good. And right now I don't think the input data is particularly good. We can post heatmaps of where shots come from and make some judgment calls based on that, and it's probably a fairly decent proxy at a very macro level (as in - you can come up with pretty good general conclusions based on that data), but I think when you start trying to apply that big data to small situations (i.e. apply them directly to players), gaping holes form.
 
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biotk

Registered User
Jan 3, 2017
7,091
5,520
Buffalo
If I recall - early in the season the NHL was having huge issues with their data.

That is true. The clip that I showed was taken from a game late in the season. I tracked a bunch of games, all in 2020, and found them all to be poorly recorded.
 

aufheben

#Norris4Fox
Jan 31, 2013
53,648
27,348
New Jersey
I think it's great to have companies out there pushing the envelope with this stuff. The only way the tools get better is to continually subject them to experiment. Can't sharpen a blade without friction.

That being said... I agree that this company specifically seems to be the source of more than their fair share of ridiculous arguments.
They’re really nice guys and they work hard on this stuff. They managed to unintentionally piss off a large portion of Canada and damage their reputation this season but I respect them for living and dying by their results.
 
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