Espo on Tretiak

[statistics]

A lot of NHLers didn't participate simply because the didn't want to. That really illustrates what Canadians think about the World Championships. The one time they could have sent their best team over and Iginla and many others didn't want to go.

Canada had 15 2004 World Cup winners. Here's Canada 2005 roster:

BRODEUR Martin
TURCO Marty
LUONGO Roberto
PHILLIPS Chris
HEWARD Jamie
REDDEN Wade
MORRISON Brendan
MORROW Brenden
HEATLEY Dany
FISHER Mike
MALTBY Kirk
DOAN Shane
GAGNE Simon
MARLEAU Patrick
HANNAN Scott
WALKER Scott
BOYLE Dan
REGEHR Robyn
DRAPER Kris
SOURAY Sheldon
JOVANOVSKI Ed
NASH Rick
SMYTH Ryan
THORNTON Joe

 

[Ogopogo*]

Canada had 15 2004 World Cup winners. Here's Canada 2005 roster:

BRODEUR Martin
TURCO Marty
LUONGO Roberto
PHILLIPS Chris
HEWARD Jamie
REDDEN Wade
MORRISON Brendan
MORROW Brenden
HEATLEY Dany
FISHER Mike
MALTBY Kirk
DOAN Shane
GAGNE Simon
MARLEAU Patrick
HANNAN Scott
WALKER Scott
BOYLE Dan
REGEHR Robyn
DRAPER Kris
SOURAY Sheldon
JOVANOVSKI Ed
NASH Rick
SMYTH Ryan
THORNTON Joe

Martin St. Louis, Joe Sakic, Brad Richards, Alex Tanguay, Jarome Iginla, Chris Pronger, Scott Niedermayer, Vincent Lecavalier...

I know those players are insignificant to you but, I would put them on the team ahead of the Hannans and Walkers of the world. Jamie Heward? LOL

Face it. The World Championships is pretty much meaningless to Canadians. Why are you trying to convince us that we care? We don't. It is a hollow victory because it has NEVER been a best on best tournament. It is no more important than the Spengler Cup to us. Capiche?

 

[statistics]

Martin St. Louis, Joe Sakic, Brad Richards, Alex Tanguay, Jarome Iginla, Chris Pronger, Scott Niedermayer, Vincent Lecavalier...

I know those players are insignificant to you but, I would put them on the team ahead of the Hannans and Walkers of the world. Jamie Heward? LOL

Lecavalier had 15 points in 30 games and 1 point in 4 playoff games 2004-2005 when he was playing AK Bars Kazan. So I don't think they wanted him. They select Jamie Heward over many decent NHL players, because Heward can skate and knows how to play in a bigger rink. Pronger is much better in a small rink. He is a average skater.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Lecavalier had 15 points in 30 games and 1 point in 4 playoff games 2004-2005 when he was playing AK Bars Kazan. So I don't think they wanted him. They select Jamie Heward over many decent NHL players, because Heward can skate and knows how to play in a bigger rink. Pronger is much better in a small rink. He is average skater.

Are you trying to say that Canada sent their best possible team in 2005?

 

[statistics]

Are you trying to say that Canada sent their best possible team in 2005?

No.

It's like 1976 and 1991 Canada Cups, Soviets sent B team. So Canada's 1976 and 1991 Canada Cup wins doesn't count, or they are marked with asteriks*, right?

 

[Ogopogo*]

No.

It's like 1976 and 1991 Canada Cups, Soviets sent B team. So Canada's 1976 and 1991 Canada Cup wins doesn't count, or they are marked with asteriks*, right?

Let's end this now.

Canadians DO NOT care about the World Championships. End of Story.

If you are trying to make a case for a player or country based on World Championships, your findings will be seriously flawed.

The NHL has always been the top league in the world and the best place to prove your worth. If a player did not prove his worth in the top league in the world, he is a phantom. It is all speculation as to how good he is.

That is how I, and most Canadians see it. You can carry your torch but, you are arguing in a vacuum. Most Canadians see the World Championships as completely unimportant.

 

[statistics]

Let's end this now.

Canadians DO NOT care about the World Championships. End of Story.

If you are trying to make a case for a player or country based on World Championships, your findings will be seriously flawed.

The NHL has always been the top league in the world and the best place to prove your worth. If a player did not prove his worth in the top league in the world, he is a phantom. It is all speculation as to how good he is.

That is how I, and most Canadians see it. You can carry your torch but, you are arguing in a vacuum. Most Canadians see the World Championships as completely unimportant.

Dude I know that Canadians and Americans don't care about World Championship, but I also know that europeans do care.

I follow european and north-american hockey so I can analyze players better than somebody who only follow north-american hockey.

The NHL has been the top league in the world always except 1972-1979.

 

[SENATOR]

I am amazed with Finland. At 5 million population they produce so many hockey stars. And they do better in the Olympics with Swedes as well, better then Canada ever will be.

Too bad that Europe could not make it work with pan-european league as in soccer. We would forget about NHL and it would eventually become a bush league, with all the top talent coming over to Europe. But this time will come sooner then later, because ignorance toward hockey from Americans is just too big. There will be a break for all Europeans and the big hockey arenas will be constructed. It is just Europe has to wake up and look for the bright future.

The ambiance and fan support will be unbelievable during EHL games in all European cities; it will be a real support, not a cheesy one, pool party style of North America. I can not stand it. The only respectable support in NA I see during the games, when the TML plays away and army of white blues make a very pleasant scene. In my books, only TML deserves to play in the future EHL. We can consider Montreal, Ottawa, Calgary and Vancouver with Rangers for the future. The rest of the league support simply sucks!!!

 

[DaaaaB's]

Still not getting your joke. Here's a joke.

I'm walking down the street with Johhny Bower and Ken Dryden. We happen upon a naked woman lying on her back, unconscious in an alley. Mr. Dryden, ever the gentleman places his Canadiens cap over her left breast. Following his lead, I place my Montreal Expos cap on her right breast. Mr. Bower places his Leaf cap on her, well, you can figure where he placed his cap, again, a gentleman.

A policeman happened along, looked under my cap, Dryden's, then he lifted Bower's cap, and said, 'that's the strangest thing, I ever saw', I asked him to explain, and he said, ' usually you find an a hole under a Leaf cap'

I just heard this joke yesterday but it was 3 fans walking down the street and the habs fan used his hat to cover the crotch. I like the punch line either way.

 

[mcphee]

I just heard this joke yesterday but it was 3 fans walking down the street and the habs fan used his hat to cover the crotch. I like the punch line either way.

I actually heard Bill Lee tell this joke on the radio. In his version, it was a Yankee cap. Gotta love the Spaceman.

 

[arrbez]

Are you trying to say that Canada sent their best possible team in 2005?

On paper we sent the best team in the tournament. We were outplayed in the finals and we lost...it happens. Why do you have such a hard time giving respect to other countries?

 

[Ogopogo*]

On paper we sent the best team in the tournament. We were outplayed in the finals and we lost...it happens. Why do you have such a hard time giving respect to other countries?

I have no problem giving respect to other countries. I just have trouble with people using tournaments like the World Championships and pre-1998 Olympics as some sort of measure of greatness. It certainly is not.

Remember, in the 60s Canada was sending our senior hockey champions over and winning the World Championships against the best Europe could offer. Canada was SIGNIFICANTLY better than the world until the Russians caught up in the 70s and were followed by other European nations.

What this all means is that, we have never taken the World Championships seriously and we were winning with a team of players that weren't good enough to play pro hockey at the NHL or AHL level.

So, statistics likes to tout the accomplishments of Europeans but, I suggest he overrates them.

 

[RorschachWJK]

I have no problem giving respect to other countries. I just have trouble with people using tournaments like the World Championships and pre-1998 Olympics as some sort of measure of greatness. It certainly is not.

Remember, in the 60s Canada was sending our senior hockey champions over and winning the World Championships against the best Europe could offer. Canada was SIGNIFICANTLY better than the world until the Russians caught up in the 70s and were followed by other European nations.

What this all means is that, we have never taken the World Championships seriously and we were winning with a team of players that weren't good enough to play pro hockey at the NHL or AHL level.

So, statistics likes to tout the accomplishments of Europeans but, I suggest he overrates them.

You may want to take that statement back. Check this out, there's a nice and informative table there...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Championships_of_Hockey#Post_World_War_II_through_to_1970

 

[Ogopogo*]

You may want to take that statement back. Check this out, there's a nice and informative table there...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Championships_of_Hockey#Post_World_War_II_through_to_1970

1961 Champions - Trail Smoke Eaters

A town of probably no more than 10,000 back then put together a team of guys who weren't good enough to make money playing hockey. These guys worked in the mills, played hockey at night and they beat the best the Czechs and Russians could offer for the World Championship.

Yes, Canada was SIGNIFICANTLY better in the 60s.

 

[shawnmullin]

I don't think it's fair to say we DON'T care about the World Championship. More that it's insignificant compared to any number of other competitions and isn't truly a best on best tournament.

However, World Championships before NHL/European integration are significant if only because it was the best of Europe competing against each other even though the best North Americans wern't involved.

2005 was the closest but not quite.

And Chris Pronger is not an "average" skater.

 

[statistics]

And Chris Pronger is not an "average" skater.

I almost wrote, that Pronger is worse than average skater. I know, that you think he is better than average skater. I know he was a semi injured last year olympics, but I can't think how easily Saku Koivu take the puck away from him, it was like taking candy from a kid.

 

[mcphee]

I don't know how many of you got to see Tretiak tonight during Ken Dryden's ceremony. He got quite an ovation, and said a few words, very well, in French and English.

He and Dryden had a nice exchange. Champions know that they are nothing without a great opponent, and both Tretiak and Dryden seemed to understand that very well.

On RDS, they asked Dryden which Soviet player he found the most difficult to play against. He mentionned Kharlamov specifically, saying that his style of play was different from anyone else'.


Oh, Tretiak, did refer to Montreal as a 'hockey town', with the best fans in the world, but geez, maybe he says that everywhere.

 

[Bring Back Bucky]

I don't know how many of you got to see Tretiak tonight during Ken Dryden's ceremony. He got quite an ovation, and said a few words, very well, in French and English.

He and Dryden had a nice exchange. Champions know that they are nothing without a great opponent, and both Tretiak and Dryden seemed to understand that very well.

On RDS, they asked Dryden which Soviet player he found the most difficult to play against. He mentionned Kharlamov specifically, saying that his style of play was different from anyone else'.


Oh, Tretiak, did refer to Montreal as a 'hockey town', with the best fans in the world, but geez, maybe he says that everywhere.

I don't know about the rest of 'em, but you're first rate for an older guy who likes poutine more than donairs, shizzle that mcphee.

 

[RorschachWJK]

1961 Champions - Trail Smoke Eaters

A town of probably no more than 10,000 back then put together a team of guys who weren't good enough to make money playing hockey. These guys worked in the mills, played hockey at night and they beat the best the Czechs and Russians could offer for the World Championship.

Yes, Canada was SIGNIFICANTLY better in the 60s.

That's just one year. USA's team of college players beat the Red Machine in 1980 but did they dominate that decade? In your original statement you were claiming that Canada dominated the entire decade. Patently untrue.

I don't think you were significantly better than Soviet Union in the 60ies. Better maybe, but not by much which was nicely illustrated a couple years later in the Summit Series. I'm willing to admit that you were significantly better than Finland or Sweden in the 60ies though, no question about that.

 

[Ogopogo*]

That's just one year. USA's team of college players beat the Red Machine in 1980 but did they dominate that decade? In your original statement you were claiming that Canada dominated the entire decade. Patently untrue.

I don't think you were significantly better than Soviet Union in the 60ies. Better maybe, but not by much which was nicely illustrated a couple years later in the Summit Series. I'm willing to admit that you were significantly better than Finland or Sweden in the 60ies though, no question about that.

When a team of mill workers wins the world championships, what would Canada's best have done? So, our mill workers 19 of the previous 30 world championship and by the 60s the world's best caught up to our mill workers. Remember, we never sent anything close to our best. The Soviets were beating a bunch of average Joes in close games.

If our average Joes were competition for the Soviets, then Canada was SIGNIFICANTLY better in the 60s.

 

[RorschachWJK]

When a team of mill workers wins the world championships, what would Canada's best have done? So, our mill workers 19 of the previous 30 world championship and by the 60s the world's best caught up to our mill workers. Remember, we never sent anything close to our best. The Soviets were beating a bunch of average Joes in close games.

If our average Joes were competition for the Soviets, then Canada was SIGNIFICANTLY better in the 60s.

See comment about college boys and the Red Machine. No further comment.

 

[Ogopogo*]

See comment about college boys and the Red Machine. No further comment.

See comment about 19 of previous 30 world championships and the fact that Canada didn't deem it necessary to send anything better than mill workers.

 

[SPARTAKUS*]

Martin St. Louis, Joe Sakic, Brad Richards, Alex Tanguay, Jarome Iginla, Chris Pronger, Scott Niedermayer, Vincent Lecavalier...

I know those players are insignificant to you but, I would put them on the team ahead of the Hannans and Walkers of the world. Jamie Heward? LOL

Face it. The World Championships is pretty much meaningless to Canadians. Why are you trying to convince us that we care? We don't. It is a hollow victory because it has NEVER been a best on best tournament. It is no more important than the Spengler Cup to us. Capiche?

That's is not true sir. Canadians care about the WHC. I am pretty damn sure when the WHC comes to Canada in 2008 the building will be jammed packed to the rafters. So please don't speak for all Canadians, a lot of us care about the WHC.

 

[Ogopogo*]

That's is not true sir. Canadians care about the WHC. I am pretty damn sure when the WHC comes to Canada in 2008 the building will be jammed packed to the rafters. So please don't speak for all Canadians, a lot of us care about the WHC.

If the Quebec Nordiques were in the Stanley Cup playoffs, the World Championships would be empty - or attended by people who couldn't get Nordiques tickets.

 

[Zine]

When a team of mill workers wins the world championships, what would Canada's best have done? So, our mill workers 19 of the previous 30 world championship and by the 60s the world's best caught up to our mill workers. Remember, we never sent anything close to our best. The Soviets were beating a bunch of average Joes in close games.

If our average Joes were competition for the Soviets, then Canada was SIGNIFICANTLY better in the 60s.

I just looked up the stats. From 1963 to 1969 the Soviets went 15-1 against Canada -- this includes WC, olympics and other various tournaments. The Canadians were outscored 76-27.

In light of this, I don't know how you can say Canada's "average Joe's" were competition for the Soviets because clearly they were not. In addition, a lot of the 1960's era Soviets played in the Summit Series and more than held their own despite being past their prime. This should give a good indication of where the Soviets were at in the 60's.

Obviously, Canada was better at that time....however nowhere near significantly better like you claim.