Espo on Tretiak
- Thread starter WVP
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mcphee
Registered User
When Kasatonov and Fetisov played together in New Jersey, the word was that they'd play together and not exchange a word off the ice. It was related to one of them leading a revolt against Tikhonov, and one of them not backing him up.
Is this the case and who did what ? I remember the story but not the specifics.
How old were they when they arrived in NJ ?
Is this the case and who did what ? I remember the story but not the specifics.
How old were they when they arrived in NJ ?
saskganesh
Registered User
Fetisov and Kas. would have both been in their early 30's.
Fetisov was the revolt leader, yeah. And the scenario was much as you described, but it was worse; Kasanatov was apparently spying on dissident Fetisov for the Defense Minsitry.
Fetisov was the revolt leader, yeah. And the scenario was much as you described, but it was worse; Kasanatov was apparently spying on dissident Fetisov for the Defense Minsitry.
saskganesh
Registered User
The training regimens were reflective of their respective societies. If you made Canadian players virtual "prisoners of hockey", their on ice play would have suffered greatly. They hadn't been conditioned to function in an environment like that.
One thing the Canadians always had in their favour was an intangible emotional core that could carry their play to the next level. They excelled in comebacks and overtime heroics. The Soviets had a system were individuality was suppressed, and emotion was discouraged. This is why they had problems maintaining leads in third periods and why they could only rarely make comebacks when the chips were down.
People called them "ice robots" for a reason.
The whole national team did not train like that.
Majority of the time?
What are you talking about? Favorite things to say for a Canadian fan, but not true.
Individuality suppressed how?
You seem to confuse discouraging emotion and having discipline. You think yelling at referees and cheapshotting your opponents to show your emotion is good?
Overtime heroics? You mean the double overtime win in 87? In that game, a minute or two before Lemiuex scored, Kasatonov had a breakaway and his leg was tackled from behind. There was no penalty. So it could have been overtime heroics the other way.
And you say this based on what?
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mcphee
Registered User
You know, there's been some good discussion in this thread. There's always something to learn. There are a lot of opinions, a lot of views of how hockey is played and compares in different countries/political systems. All you can ever contribute is Canadainas are bad, we only win when we can bludgeon the opposition. OK, your opinion is clear. That's it, nothing else to say ? What the hell's the matter with you, allergic to maple syrup ?The whole national team did not train like that.
Majority of the time?
What are you talking about? Favorite things to say for a Canadian fan, but not true.
Individuality suppressed how?
You seem to confuse discouraging emotion and having discipline. You think yelling at referees and cheapshotting your opponents to show your emotion is good?
Overtime heroics? You mean the double overtime win in 87? In that game, a minute or two before Lemiuex scored, Kasatonov had a breakaway and his leg was tackled from behind. There was no penalty. So it could have been overtime heroics the other way.
And you say this based on what?
Yakushev was soviets best scorer also in 1972 vs. Canada. 8 games, 7+4 11 points.
In 1974 vs. WHA 7 games, 6+2 8 points.
Easily HHOF.
***************************************************************
And say hi to Alexander Maltsev Moscow Dynamo (not CSKA)
Alexander Maltsev
Club: Dynamo Moscow
Position: RW Shoots: Left
Height: 5-09 Weight: 174
Born: 4/20/1949 in Kirovo-Chepetsk, USSR
Alexander Maltsev is one of the brightest stars in the history of Soviet and international hockey.
Throughout his hockey career, Maltsev was an advocate of the so-called "creative hockey". His talents included fascinating 1-on-1 skills and uncanny puck handling, very stylish and speedy skating, fast decision making on ice and incredible tactical sense of the game. He was a master of magnificent improvisations on ice.
Being very strong individually, Maltsev was also a team player. He was famous for being able to play successfully in any forward position based on the needs of the national team.
CAREER HIGHLIGTS:
Soviet league 1967-1983: 529 games, 329 goals
Team USSR 1968-1982: 301 games, 212 goals
USSR Elite League Clubs: Dynamo Moscow
WC Gold: (8) 1969-1971, 1973-1975, 1978-1979
Olympics Gold: (2) 1972, 1976
Canada Cup winner 1981
Played in the Summit Series 72, vs. WHA 1974, Superseries 75-76, 76-77, 78-79, 79-80, 82-83, Canada Cup 76, 81
National Awards:
MVP USSR League 1972
USSR All Stars 1970-1972, 1974, 1978, 1980-1981
Merited Sports Master (USSR ZMS) 1971
International Awards:
WC Best Forward 1970, 1972, 1981
IIHF All Stars 1970-1972, 1978, 1981
WC Scoring Leader 1970, 1972
IIHF Hall of Fame 1999
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Danglefish
Registered User
- Oct 26, 2006
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When you have a history like Phil Esposito you don't need to have sportsmanship. He never got where he is now, the hall of fame, by biting his tongue. Also, you can't blame the guy for having no sportsmanship towards the Russians because of all the crap they put up with back in the day. Not just the cold war and all that between the west and the russians, but all the crap they were put through during the summit series. It was a time of hate, and you can't expect someone to just change they're opinions about a situation like that when, at the time, they are already old enough to be set in their ways. Why do you think most grandparents of this generation are still very racist compared to us now? They grew up with all that crap going on, and you can't just have them forget their past and history. Sorry to come off like an a**hole, but I'm just a very big supporter of Espo and I think people are being a little hard on the guy.
Wisent
Registered User
I know and I can understand that to some degree. And I would have no problem if he had an opinion for the media and one for his friends. Maybe I am a bit naive but I want my sports stars to be be exactly that: sport stars. Sports should not be a stage to show politics. Sports for me should be celebrated with the ideals of Pierre de Coubertin (ok, the amateur status is overdoing it a bit IMO). In a friendly fashion and with respect towards your opponent. I never liked the trashtalk on either side. Every athlete trains hard to be where they are, so it should be easy to recognise the athlete as someone like yourself (for the other athlete). Not meaning to be harsh on anybody, I still criticise my grandma (who I love) when she utters some political incorrect opinions.
That's no excuse. A lot of Summit Series players (on both sides) have 'moved on' and are very forgiving and friendly to each other now. Espo reminds me of a senile old man who never let's a grudge go even though the times have changed.
I'm reminded of a Chris Rock joke: "It makes no sense to hate anybody......because whoever you hate will end up in your family."
That's certainly true in Espo's case.
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Hank19
Registered User
- Apr 11, 2005
- 1,870
- 1
Duh?
Do a little reading up on how the RSL was run at that time. All the best players played for the same team. Ask Larionov how it felt being told to play for Moscow or his mother and father would lose their jobs. The Soviet national teams that almost every country faced played guys who were together all year long.
Again, read the book "From Behind The Redline" and you'll have a clearer look as to how that league operated.
mcphee
Registered User
Would Espo be Espo without the Summit Series ? His performance from his key goals,sprawling in Moscow, speech in Vancouver, throat slashing gesture to Mikhailov is part of the legend. Sure he was a great goal scorer, but ask any fan to reminisce about him, and they'll talk about 72.That's no excuse. A lot of Summit Series players (on both sides) have 'moved on' and are very forgiving and friendly to each other now. Espo reminds me of a senile old man who never let's a grudge go even though the times have changed.
I'm reminded of a Chris Rock joke: "It makes no sense to hate anybody......because whoever you hate will end up in your family."
That's certainly true in Espo's case.
I'm not sure it's hate, probably some leftover emotion, a lot of it mixed, but he knows damn well what his role is and he'll stay in character. I'm sure some of it is genuine, I'd bet he still feels cynical about the way the team was ridiculed in Canada, and it comes out, but I'm sure Esposito understands very well what sells. Maybe I'm cynical myself, but I'd bet he left the studio that day smiling about how he stirred it up.
BTW, when they gathered players from that series to play some exhibitions, years later, Cournoyer wasn't all smiles and camaraderie. He wanted no part of a 'friendly '
and years after retirement felt that they needed to win.
Hank19
Registered User
- Apr 11, 2005
- 1,870
- 1
I don't think it's an act at all. If you read his biography or heard him speak on the topic the man is all piss and vinegar on the subject. He really despised the Russian communist way of life. He also seemed like he was still ticked at how horribly one sided the officiating was or how the Russian government treated them when they were over there.
The Hockey News had a magazine out during the lockout that was about the 'bests' of the sport. Goalies were brought up and a counterpoint to Tretiak was written by someone else other than Espo. He basically said the same things. About how once the Canadians figured out the Russian system, they lit him up. They also pointed out how he loved to play deep in his net which played to a snipers strengths.
Hank19
Registered User
- Apr 11, 2005
- 1,870
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Just to prove my point on how the majority of players on that team were from the same club, I just used www.hockeydb.com and 13 of the 22 players were from CSKA Moscow (which most of those players were the stars of that team), 5 others were from either Moscow Spartak or Moscow Dynamo. If you wanted to compare those teams to NHL teams in that era, it would be like 13 players from the Candians and 5 more from the Leafs or Wings.
And if you did read that book I mentioned you'll know how the RSL operated in that era. Basically, if you were a great player you were almost forced to play for CSKA Moscow. If they didn't have room for you, you would play for one of the other Moscow teams.
And if you check each players stats for that year, you'll see that a LOT of those players were yanked from their teams so they could train and play for that Summit Series all year long.
The Russians had a major upperhand in this tournament in how they trained and how the team was built. Tretiak = overrated.
Sorry, statistics. Truth hurts doesn't it?
And if you did read that book I mentioned you'll know how the RSL operated in that era. Basically, if you were a great player you were almost forced to play for CSKA Moscow. If they didn't have room for you, you would play for one of the other Moscow teams.
And if you check each players stats for that year, you'll see that a LOT of those players were yanked from their teams so they could train and play for that Summit Series all year long.
The Russians had a major upperhand in this tournament in how they trained and how the team was built. Tretiak = overrated.
Sorry, statistics. Truth hurts doesn't it?
1972 Soviet League only had 9 teams. 1974 vs. WHA 10/29 players were from CSKA. Krylja Sovetov also had 10 players. 1987 Canda Cup 11 /22 players were from CSKA. So it's not like all the best players played in CSKA. Maltsev and Yakushev were superstars and they played Spartak and Dynamo Moscow. Arturs Irbe was Soviets starter 1989 and 1990 world championships and he played Dynamo Riga etc.
There is other books too, it's not like there is only one book about soviet hockey. By the way, please don't call it RSL, Because Dynamo Riga, Sokol Kiev and Dynamo Minsk wasn't from Russia.
Hank19
Registered User
- Apr 11, 2005
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You just proved what I just said. The majority of the best players played for CSKA. If they couldn't sign you then Spartak or Dynamo would. See how few players came from the outer cities?
And please provide evidence from other publications that say the opposite of what I've claimed. I've heard Larionov and Makarov say exactly what I've pointed out. The better players get plucked to play in Moscow or certain 'consequences' would unfold to them or their families. The whole league was incredibly corrupt.
The fact still remains that these Russian players had a season half as long. The rest of the time they'd be training and preparing for internation competition. If the NHL stars were allowed to play in their leagues from Sept - Feb and then train together for 3 months in preperation of the Olympics or Canada Cups they would have done even better.
You cannot disprove the facts that I have brought up. The majority of players came from the same club and that they were given a lot more time to train together.
The Canada teams were thrown together at a moments notice with most of these guys coming in from their summer vacations to play together on a whim.
It's any wonder that we smoked Russia in 1987 and 1991.
It also proves a lot when you see how poorly Russia has done in international competition since the Iron Curtain fell and those old tactics could no longer be used. Now that all pro players are on the same schedule and face the same amount of perperation time, the team has done nothing. (I'm talking Olympics and World/Canada Cups as well as World Championships).
It also proves that Tretiak's career was overrated as he always played on the best Russian club with the best players and would then feast on international B and C teams.
mcphee
Registered User
Well, we can debate the term 'act' but it's not necessary. I think 'lit up' is overstaing too. Playing over time against the same opposition, you'd think an athlete like Tretiak would've adjusted to the style being played against him, but that's not that relevant really.
The Soviet team was legendary in that era, to North Americans because they were the first we were familiar with. We've seen Yaushev and can say he reinds us of X NHL'er. The HOF recognition is something I'm lukewarm about. Is there a business connection to the NHL, tying it to the HOF ? In my mind, though it's called the Hockey hof, it's an extension of the NHL. If someone in the Hockey News wants to write an article about Tretiak was 'solved', well that's fine, it's opinion.
I'm sure Esposito feels strongly about his experiences in 72. I don't think he's being a phony, but I believe he's doing what he does, putting on a show. There's a difference between Dryden sitting back and quietly wondering how Tretiak would've fared in a 10 year NHL career, playing 60 games plus playoffs, maybe discussing perceived flaws in his game. That comes off as food for thought, though a bit boring.
Phil points a finger, slams the table, says, 'Let's get 1 thing straight', but says essentially the same thing, and listeners come back the next day.
His feelings about the Soviet Union are a different matter though. They were shared by most North Americans back then, myself included. We can lie and say that matchups in those days were in the spirit of sportsmanship were just that in those days, but it wasn't. Everything was controversy.
It's different today. Esposito knows that. I don't think he has a problem with anything/anyone Russian.
Check out Soviets 1991 Canada Cup roster. No Mogilny, no P. Bure, no Makarov, no Fetisov, no Larionov etc.
Yes, he always played againts Czechoslovakian, Sweden, Finlands C teams.
Guys,
Tretiak is the GREATEST hockey player Soviet Union/Russia has EVER produced.
Even if you think he's overrated, I'm sure if you look at the whole list of HOF players you can find at least a few names that you can agree are worse then him.
If you think all of them are better then you are an EXTREME ANTI-RUSSIAN HOMER!!!!
For those of you that say that he benefited from playing on great teams, have you ever considered the fact that having him in goal ALLOWED the CSKA team and the Soviet National team to play the attacking style that they loved to play?
With him in Goal, the teams took more chances that it wouldn't have with someone else.
The '72 Summit Series is no different. It's not a coincidence that that Series was a VERY high scoring one. And it wasn't a fault of the goallies either. Both teams played a VERY wide open, attacking style.
I'm not saying that they treated it like the current players treat the All-Star game, but it's pretty clear that defense was secondary in everyone of those games.
Tretiak is the GREATEST hockey player Soviet Union/Russia has EVER produced.
Even if you think he's overrated, I'm sure if you look at the whole list of HOF players you can find at least a few names that you can agree are worse then him.
If you think all of them are better then you are an EXTREME ANTI-RUSSIAN HOMER!!!!
For those of you that say that he benefited from playing on great teams, have you ever considered the fact that having him in goal ALLOWED the CSKA team and the Soviet National team to play the attacking style that they loved to play?
With him in Goal, the teams took more chances that it wouldn't have with someone else.
The '72 Summit Series is no different. It's not a coincidence that that Series was a VERY high scoring one. And it wasn't a fault of the goallies either. Both teams played a VERY wide open, attacking style.
I'm not saying that they treated it like the current players treat the All-Star game, but it's pretty clear that defense was secondary in everyone of those games.
Hank19
Registered User
- Apr 11, 2005
- 1,870
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The Czechs were the only other country that were producing an abundance of NHL calibre talent.
I'm sure Finland and Sweden brought their A teams but that's like saying Jamacia brought their A bobsledding team to the Olympics. Big deal.
The fact is, during that era, the only other country that was producing similar talent was Canada and in all those years we were sending our worst players over.
I know I'm not going to change your mind and you certainly won't change mine. But I feel I've given an abundance of facts while you continue to provide 'feelings'.
If you don't think the Russian teams had an advantage over their competition during their reign in the 50's, 60's and 70's then you're kidding yourself.
And my whole point to all of this is that Tretiak is overrated. I didn't say he was 'garbage' but his accolades are bloated due to intangibles that were at his disposal and to the level of talent he faced at times during international competition.
Yes soviets trained more than canadians, but do you realize how many times more canadians had registered players and rinks. Also Football was number one sports in Soviet Union (still is in Russia). Soviets had much less talent which choose from. They had to train like animals, if they wanted to compete with Canada.
Hank19
Registered User
- Apr 11, 2005
- 1,870
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Yes we had more rinks but it doesn't mean that our best players had better training than Russians best players. The Russian program for producing players was still highly affective and those guys were still given a much better program for preparing for international competition
I'd also like to see numbers when showing how many kids/men were playing hockey in each country during that time. I bet they're not that far off. Russia has and still has a LOT more people living in it.
I would like to appologize in advance for what I'm about to say, and keep in mind that it's not directed to all of the Canadian fans here, only select few.
I don't understand the Canadian fans that try to diminish Soviet/Russian former and current players as much as they can.
According to you guys all those Russian stars were barely on the same level as average NHL players. Then why is it that the '72 Series was so close?
Everytime there is a discussion about past Russian greats, there is always some guys (<<cough>>Canadians<<cough>>) that call them "overrated". It wasn't the players fault that they never got a chance to prove themselves in the NHL.
I'm pretty sure that had the Soviet Government allowed those players to enter the NHL, they would have been VERY high draft picks and would've played GREAT.
And again, for those that suggest that Tretiak benefited from players around him, answer me this:
Which goalie NEVER benefited from players around him?
Do you want to see what happens to GREAT goalies when they get no support from their teammates????
WATCH WHAT HAPPEND TO BRODUER IN THE ALL-STAR GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No Goalie, no matter how great, can do it alone.
I don't understand the Canadian fans that try to diminish Soviet/Russian former and current players as much as they can.
According to you guys all those Russian stars were barely on the same level as average NHL players. Then why is it that the '72 Series was so close?
Everytime there is a discussion about past Russian greats, there is always some guys (<<cough>>Canadians<<cough>>) that call them "overrated". It wasn't the players fault that they never got a chance to prove themselves in the NHL.
I'm pretty sure that had the Soviet Government allowed those players to enter the NHL, they would have been VERY high draft picks and would've played GREAT.
And again, for those that suggest that Tretiak benefited from players around him, answer me this:
Which goalie NEVER benefited from players around him?
Do you want to see what happens to GREAT goalies when they get no support from their teammates????
WATCH WHAT HAPPEND TO BRODUER IN THE ALL-STAR GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No Goalie, no matter how great, can do it alone.
Didn't find old numbers, but here's current numbers:
http://www.iihf.com/iihf/member/Survey of players.pdf
Canada: 543,390
Russia: 77,202
Latvia: 4,836
Kazakhstan: 2,931
Belarus: 2,930
Ukraine: 2,238
Estonia: 1854
Lithuania: 689
Armenia: 520
Soviet Union Total: 93,200
Rinks (indoor):
Canada: 3,000
Russia: 142
Latvia: 11
Belarus: 10
Kazakhstan: 10
Estonia: 8
Ukraine: 7
Lithuania: 3
Armenia: 2
Soviet Union total: 193
Please, note that in Canada hockey is number one sports, so more (%) talented athletes choose hockey than in Russia (former Soviet Union countries).
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