Espo on Tretiak

[Hank19]

I would like to appologize in advance for what I'm about to say, and keep in mind that it's not directed to all of the Canadian fans here, only select few.

I don't understand the Canadian fans that try to diminish Soviet/Russian former and current players as much as they can.

According to you guys all those Russian stars were barely on the same level as average NHL players. Then why is it that the '72 Series was so close?

Everytime there is a discussion about past Russian greats, there is always some guys (<<cough>>Canadians<<cough>>) that call them "overrated". It wasn't the players fault that they never got a chance to prove themselves in the NHL.

I'm pretty sure that had the Soviet Government allowed those players to enter the NHL, they would have been VERY high draft picks and would've played GREAT.

And again, for those that suggest that Tretiak benefited from players around him, answer me this:

Which goalie NEVER benefited from players around him?

Do you want to see what happens to GREAT goalies when they get no support from their teammates????

WATCH WHAT HAPPEND TO BRODUER IN THE ALL-STAR GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No Goalie, no matter how great, can do it alone.

I know for myself, I never said the Russian players were no good. On the contrary. I was just giving my opinion on how the Russians did so well in international competition and in the 'Super Series' type games against Canada.

 

[Hank19]

Didn't find old numbers, but here's current numbers:

http://www.iihf.com/iihf/member/Survey of players.pdf

Canada: 543,390

Russia: 77,202
Latvia: 4,836
Kazakhstan: 2,931
Belarus: 2,930
Ukraine: 2,238
Estonia: 1854
Lithuania: 689
Armenia: 520

Soviet Union Total: 93,200

Rinks (indoor):

Canada: 3,000

Russia: 142
Latvia: 11
Belarus: 10
Kazakhstan: 10
Estonia: 8
Ukraine: 7
Lithuania: 3
Armenia: 2

Soviet Union total: 193

Please, note that in Canada hockey is number one sports, so more (%) talented athletes choose hockey than in Russia (former Soviet Union countries).

You also have to consider the quality of training these players were given. Back then, and even today, most kids enrolled in minor hockey in Canada, are given 1 hour of ice time for pratice and then a game.
In Russia, back then especially, the kids that made it into the programs went to Acadamy's where hockey was practiced every day.
I guarentee you that if you took 1000 kids and placed them in a regular minor hockey program and then I took 10 kids and had them on the ice 6 days a week, 2-4 hours at a time, my 10 kids will be just as good, if not better, than the 10 top players of the 1000.
Hockey was not fun in Russia then. It was a job. Just ask some of the old guard what it was like growing up.
In fact, my father-in-law got a chance to meet a Russian through his business that was groomed in the Russian hockey system (he actually played with Federov and Mogilny as a young man). He basically said everything I've already stated.

 

[MaxV]

BTW, just because the best Canadian players were absent from all of those tournaments that doesn't mean that the Soviets were playing against talentless hacks.

I'm sure a lot of you guys will agree that those Czechoslovakian and those Sweden teams were full of NHL-caliber talent. And those teams did, at times, cause a problem for the Russians.

Also a lot of you guys are forgetting that the 1980 U.S. "Miracle" team had players that went on to have good NHL careers. As a matter of fact, I believe their captain was one of maybe 2 or 3, that never played in the NHL.

That U.S. team was very young, but it was by NO MEANS talentless.

 

[statistics]

Canada usually had good teams in world championships, not best possible teams, but definitely not AHL caliber teams.

Here's Canada 1989:

GK: Grant Fuhr (Edmonton Oilers), Sean Burke (New Jersey Devils), Peter Sidorkiewicz (Winnipeg Jets); Dave Ellett (Winnipeg Jets), Ken Daneyko (New Jersey Devils), James Patrick (NY Rangers), Brent Ashton (Winnipeg Jets), Randy Carlyle (Winnipeg Jets), Kirk Muller (New Jersey Devils), Dale Hawerchuk (Winnipeg Jets), Kevin Dineen (Hartford Whalers), John McLean (New Jersey Devils), Pat Verbeek (New Jersey Devils), Gerard Gallant (Detroit Red Wings), Glen Andersson (Edmonton Oilers), Steve Yzerman (Detroit Red Wings), Andrew McBain (Winnipeg Jets, Mark Messier (Edmonton Oilers ), Brian Bellows (Minnesota North Stars), Dave Babych (Hartford Whalers), Scott Stevens ( Washington Capitals), Ray Ferraro (Hartford Whalers), Mario Marois (Winnipeg Jets). Coach: Dave King.

1977 Canada had Phil Esposito, 1979 Marcel Dionne, 1982 Wayne Gretzky, 1985 Mario Lemieux etc.

***************************************************************

USA had good players also in 1989:

John Vanbiesbrouck, Brian Leetch, Phil Housley, Jeff Norton, Tom Kurvers, Ed Olczyk, Pat Lafontaine, Brian Mullen, Scott Young, Dave Christian, Doug Brown.

 

[Hank19]

Canada usually had good teams in world championships, not best possible teams, but definitely not AHL caliber teams.

Here's Canada 1989:

GK: Grant Fuhr (Edmonton Oilers), Sean Burke (New Jersey Devils), Peter Sidorkiewicz (Winnipeg Jets); Dave Ellett (Winnipeg Jets), Ken Daneyko (New Jersey Devils), James Patrick (NY Rangers), Brent Ashton (Winnipeg Jets), Randy Carlyle (Winnipeg Jets), Kirk Muller (New Jersey Devils), Dale Hawerchuk (Winnipeg Jets), Kevin Dineen (Hartford Whalers), John McLean (New Jersey Devils), Pat Verbeek (New Jersey Devils), Gerard Gallant (Detroit Red Wings), Glen Andersson (Edmonton Oilers), Steve Yzerman (Detroit Red Wings), Andrew McBain (Winnipeg Jets, Mark Messier (Edmonton Oilers ), Brian Bellows (Minnesota North Stars), Dave Babych (Hartford Whalers), Scott Stevens ( Washington Capitals), Ray Ferraro (Hartford Whalers), Mario Marois (Winnipeg Jets). Coach: Dave King.

1977 Canada had Phil Esposito, 1979 Marcel Dionne, 1982 Wayne Gretzky, 1985 Mario Lemieux etc.

***************************************************************

USA had good players also in 1989:

John Vanbiesbrouck, Brian Leetch, Phil Housley, Jeff Norton, Tom Kurvers, Ed Olczyk, Pat Lafontaine, Brian Mullen, Scott Young, Dave Christian, Doug Brown.

Our World Championship rosters weren't bad but certainly they weren't our A team. They were maybe a B or C team. And again, they had how long to train together? 5 days?

The Olympics is where you really see how the Russian's took advantage of Olympic rules. The Russians were still considered 'amateurs' which was a joke. Technically they were amateurs but the Russian league was one of the best leagues in the world. And a lot of those players should have been in the NHL if the communists had allowed it.

 

[Zine]

You also have to consider the quality of training these players were given. Back then, and even today, most kids enrolled in minor hockey in Canada, are given 1 hour of ice time for pratice and then a game.
In Russia, back then especially, the kids that made it into the programs went to Acadamy's where hockey was practiced every day.
I guarentee you that if you took 1000 kids and placed them in a regular minor hockey program and then I took 10 kids and had them on the ice 6 days a week, 2-4 hours at a time, my 10 kids will be just as good, if not better, than the 10 top players of the 1000.
Hockey was not fun in Russia then. It was a job. Just ask some of the old guard what it was like growing up.
In fact, my father-in-law got a chance to meet a Russian through his business that was groomed in the Russian hockey system (he actually played with Federov and Mogilny as a young man). He basically said everything I've already stated.

Yes, the majority of those registered Canadians are recreational players....BUT it also illistrates what a large talent pool Canada has to chose from. More players playing = more potential talent. The talented kids who rise to the top are then given the best instruction and mega ice time (AAA teams, junior programs, etc.).

If a kid is an 'elite level' talent, he's gonna be playing and practicing 24/7 no matter where he's from. Don't kid yourself, the top Canadian kids aren't playing a few hours a week. They're practicing as much as the Russian kids......especially nowadays.

The difference is that with more players playing, Canada has the biggest talent pool by which talented players can develop.

 

[YMB29]

All you can ever contribute is Canadainas are bad, we only win when we can bludgeon the opposition. OK, your opinion is clear. That's it, nothing else to say ? What the hell's the matter with you, allergic to maple syrup ?

I don't always say that Canada is bad. But look at what many Canadians here say about Soviet/Russian hockey.

The better players get plucked to play in Moscow or certain 'consequences' would unfold to them or their families. The whole league was incredibly corrupt.

What consequences? It is just that everyone wanted to live and play in Moscow, and play for the national team.

If the NHL stars were allowed to play in their leagues from Sept - Feb and then train together for 3 months in preperation of the Olympics or Canada Cups they would have done even better.

The Canada teams were thrown together at a moments notice with most of these guys coming in from their summer vacations to play together on a whim.

Why did not they do that? Keep repeating the same old excuses.

It's any wonder that we smoked Russia in 1987 and 1991.

Smoked? In Canada Cup of 91, the only game they played was a tie (Canada could not beat a Soviet-B/C team at home). In 87, Koharski was Canada's MVP the last game.

It also proves a lot when you see how poorly Russia has done in international competition since the Iron Curtain fell and those old tactics could no longer be used. Now that all pro players are on the same schedule and face the same amount of perperation time, the team has done nothing. (I'm talking Olympics and World/Canada Cups as well as World Championships).

It is not about the old tactics unable to be used, but the overall deterioration of hockey in Russia as well as sports in general (Russia has suffered in all team sports since the break up of the USSR).

 

[MaxV]

Yes, Russian hockey(and sports in general) unfortunately has deteriorated significantly since the fall of Soviet Union.

But lately it has become better. And for the first time in awhile there seems to be good depth in good/great young Russian players.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Yes, the majority of those registered Canadians are recreational players....BUT it also illistrates what a large talent pool Canada has to chose from. More players playing = more potential talent. The talented kids who rise to the top are then given the best instruction and mega ice time (AAA teams, junior programs, etc.).

If a kid is an 'elite level' talent, he's gonna be playing and practicing 24/7 no matter where he's from. Don't kid yourself, the top Canadian kids aren't playing a few hours a week. They're practicing as much as the Russian kids......especially nowadays.

The difference is that with more players playing, Canada has the biggest talent pool by which talented players can develop.

The big problem in Canada is ice time. We may have more arenas than any other country in the world but, the demand for ice time is so great that most kids get a one hour practice plus a game per week.

Now, in some areas (Edmonton) there are outdoor hockey rinks that people can use. This gives the truly passionate an opportunity to play/practice more.

Notice that many of the best players in the NHL loved the game so much that they were always on the ice as kids. Gretzky was like that. The Staal family was like that as well. Passion for the game and ice time are two important ingredients in improving your game.

 

[mcphee]

The big problem in Canada is ice time. We may have more arenas than any other country in the world but, the demand for ice time is so great that most kids get a one hour practice plus a game per week.

Now, in some areas (Edmonton) there are outdoor hockey rinks that people can use. This gives the truly passionate an opportunity to play/practice more.

Notice that many of the best players in the NHL loved the game so much that they were always on the ice as kids. Gretzky was like that. The Staal family was like that as well. Passion for the game and ice time are two important ingredients in improving your game.

I've got a half formed theory about who is playing hockey at high levels right now, and in the next 10 years. Playing at elite levels for a 12 year old is a costly thing.

We've all seen arguements about widening societal classes, here and in the US. I'm starting to believe that the old story of poor kid makes good, will be very rare.

The last few years when we've seen a lot of talented US players at the u18's, WJC and being drafted, I've had the impression that these are privileged kids. I'm out of my depth here, but I wonder if this is happening in Europe, as to who is exactly playing the game.

 

[12# Peter Bondra]

In Slovakia, most of the kids playing hockey have to have the money to play as its an expensive sport.

 

[Ogopogo*]

I've got a half formed theory about who is playing hockey at high levels right now, and in the next 10 years. Playing at elite levels for a 12 year old is a costly thing.

We've all seen arguements about widening societal classes, here and in the US. I'm starting to believe that the old story of poor kid makes good, will be very rare.

The last few years when we've seen a lot of talented US players at the u18's, WJC and being drafted, I've had the impression that these are privileged kids. I'm out of my depth here, but I wonder if this is happening in Europe, as to who is exactly playing the game.

I agree on the costs. As bad as I wanted to play, my parents couldn't afford it. My first year of organized hockey was as a 12 year old. At that age a player is WAY behind on skating. I never caught up.

Not too many poor kids play organized puck, that's for sure.

 

[reckoning]

What consequences? It is just that everyone wanted to live and play in Moscow, and play for the national team.

Igor Larionov didn't....

http://www.russianrocket.de/Teammates/Larionov/hauptteil_larionov.html

Igor never actually wanted to play for the Red Army. He had been planning to go back and play in Voskresensk after his 2-year national service. But Moscow and national coach Viktor Tikhonov didn’t allow him to return to his home town.

 

[YMB29]

And how exactly did they not allow him? If he really wanted to leave, he would have.

 

[bones21212]

If the NHL stars were allowed to play in their leagues from Sept - Feb and then train together for 3 months in preperation of the Olympics or Canada Cups they would have done even better.

is that a known fact...or just speculation on your part?
if that comment wasnt so idiotic it would almost be laughable.

 

[mcphee]

I agree on the costs. As bad as I wanted to play, my parents couldn't afford it. My first year of organized hockey was as a 12 year old. At that age a player is WAY behind on skating. I never caught up.

Not too many poor kids play organized puck, that's for sure.

I think the issue is more prononced now than before. I asked my freind whose 13 year old played AA pee wee last year what it cost him, bottom line, eqmt., tournaments , lodging etc., and he wouldn't tell me, he knew it was ridiculous but once you're in...

 

[mcphee]

is that a known fact...or just speculation on your part?
if that comment wasnt so idiotic it would almost be laughable.

I believe that there is a huge difference in the mindset of players and fans when you are geared more towards tournament play rather than season play. The mindset is so markedly different. I read these boards during WJC's and WC's and you can see just thru fan attitude how the comfort level is different.

I think that the recent WJC's mark the only time Canada has stuck to a quick team building formula. They never have had a consistent system since their 1st experience in 72.

NHL players play hockey for a living. Neither Canada nor the US were ever going to suggest to them that a 2 month training period would be a good idea during the summer.

Russian players don't do it now that they have a choice.


Tournaments these dyas are consistent in that all countries have equal opportunity in forming teams, [as long as the NHLPA agrees].


You'll never have the perfect comparison. Every Canadian fan wishes they had seen Orr when he was still Orr in 72. Not for bragging rights, but to see him at that level of competition. The bragging rights would've been nice though.

 

[Ogopogo*]

I think the issue is more prononced now than before. I asked my freind whose 13 year old played AA pee wee last year what it cost him, bottom line, eqmt., tournaments , lodging etc., and he wouldn't tell me, he knew it was ridiculous but once you're in...

I talked to a guy that had his kid in peewee AAA about 10 years ago. He said with equipment, tournaments, etc. it was $5,000 for one season!!!!! And that was 10 years ago.

I hope my kids become soccer players.

 

[SPARTAKUS*]

During those years the Russian league was a joke. The Red Army team was given all of the best talent and the rest of the league was given the scraps. It was akin to the All Star teams being put in Montreal and the rest of the league could have the scraps.

The truth is, the man played about 20 games against NHL-calibre competition and his numbers weren't very good in those games.

He is overrated.

I suppose '72 was a fluke? Tretiak was the best goaltender in tha series. Against the Montreal Canadiens in '75 Tretiak again was the best goaltender. Phil Esposito is a jackass. If Paul Henderson deserves to be in the HOH then Tretiak deserves to be there too. Phil go back to your beer commercial or maybe that's the problem Phil has been drinking one to many beer?

 

[MaxV]

No goallie would be able to do a better job then what Tretiak did in '72, I don't care what his save percentage was.

The Canadians outshot the Russians in EVERY game in that series. Tretiak made a BUNCH of GREAT saves that kept his team in games.

Espo is still bitter about that series. He NEVER goes to reunions and he says that Mikhaelov cheap-shotted him......LOL Phil should be talking.

When a Canadian puts a hard hit on the Russian guy, it's just part of hockey.
When a Russian puts a hard hit on the Canadian guy, it's dirty play.

Espo is full of _______. Draw in the blank.

 

[Frightened Inmate #2]

Espo is still bitter about that series. He NEVER goes to reunions and he says that Mikhaelov cheap-shotted him......LOL Phil should be talking.

When a Canadian puts a hard hit on the Russian guy, it's just part of hockey.
When a Russian puts a hard hit on the Canadian guy, it's dirty play.

Espo is full of _______. Draw in the blank.

What are you talking about with that last bit, Canada has a history of unfairly being considered a goon squad in hockey, all the while the Europeans are the skilled players. Not saying I believe in that but that statement of yours is pretty questionable.

Both teams were guilty of cheapshots thoughout the tournament, Boris Mikhaelov's kick, Ulf Sterner with his de-tonguing of Wayne Cashman and Clarke's slash.......... only one of those gets mentioned in the history of cheap shots - and oddly enough it is likely the least dangerous in terms of physical ramifications out of the three.

Edit: For the record I think that Tretiak was a great goaltender - a bit overhyped due to the fact that we in North America really only got to see him when he was in the CCCP uniforms which was very rarely.

 

[Joretus]

The World Championships is still considered unimporant by Canadian players. We have NEVER sent our best team and many players choose not to go simply because they don't care.

2005?

And about topic, you have to remember Tretjak trained harder than any NHL goaltenders ever at his time. Not saying he would be better, but would be nice to give some credit for other than own nation players as well.

 

[mcphee]

I talked to a guy that had his kid in peewee AAA about 10 years ago. He said with equipment, tournaments, etc. it was $5,000 for one season!!!!! And that was 10 years ago.

I hope my kids become soccer players.

My guess was that he was just under $10000 last year. These aren't rich people either. As middle class as middle class gets.

 

[Ogopogo*]

2005?

.

A lot of NHLers didn't participate simply because the didn't want to. That really illustrates what Canadians think about the World Championships. The one time they could have sent their best team over and Iginla and many others didn't want to go.

The World Championships are not important this side of the Atlantic.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

2005?

Dan Boyle
Martin Brodeur
Shane Doan
Kris Draper
Mike Fisher
Simon Gagné
Scott Hannan
Dany Heatley
Ed Jovanovski - A
Roberto Luongo
Kirk Maltby
Patrick Marleau - A
Brendan Morrison
Brenden Morrow
Rick Nash
Chris Phillips
Wade Redden
Robyn Regehr
Ryan Smyth - C
Sheldon Souray
Joe Thornton - A
Marty Turco
Scott Walker

Even with a lockout so many of Canada's top players dont go.