Player Discussion Erik Brännström - D - Part III

Micklebot

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LOL at $2M in $85M cap world being even close to true top 4 money.
It's not as far off as you might think,

2mil is 147th in Cap hit, so with 32 teams, top 4 would be 128. top 5 would be 160, so he's more than half way there from "5" to "4" territory.

That said, there are D playing in the top 4 that arguably don't make top 4 money (on their ELC for example) and guys in the bottom 2 that make "top 4" money.
 

BankStreetParade

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Ya, you seem to be skipping over the part where the decision to sign Hamonic had real world roster repercussions that were completely avoidable. We put ourselves in a position where we couldn't call somebody up without losing a better player in JBD or Brannstrom because we were stuck with Hamonic on the roster

Hamonic is the D equivalent of MacEwen, but while we certainly gave more term than is reasonable for MacEwen, at least we didn't handcuff ourselves with a full NMC. That's the difference, MacEwen is a 13th Forward with zero ramifications other than cash. Hamonic is preventing us from doing things to make the team better.

Is it the biggest problem this team has? of course not, nobody claimed it was. Was it one of the most easily avoidable ones? Absolutely, but the reality is Dorion likely didn't think Hamonic was a 13th D, he likely saw him as a lock for the top 6 and maybe a 7th guy next year.

As for the guy getting on the cusp of top 4 money, well he's not a problem because he's playing every game, and moving into the to 4 when required. His contract is in line with his contribution. We just want to replace him because his skill set is redundant when everyone is healthy.
Again, a problem that was entirely avoidable by not signing Brannstrom. This team needed a veteran RHD who would sign for less than $1.5M, they absolutely did NOT need an undersized bottom-pairing LHD getting $2M. There's your roster flexibility and cap flexibility solved in one go. Hamonic was never paid to be a full-time roster player, while Brannstrom was paid close to top 4 money. Hamonic's NMC would be completely irrelevant if they hadn't signed Brannstrom to $2M.
Brannstrom at $2 million was more valuable than Hamonic at even league minimum, let alone his cap hit and NMC.

It doesn't matter how inept you consider Brannstrom to be, Hamonic is worse than him in every measurable aspect of the game. There's no point in paying for vet leadership if that leadership isn't even good enough to play on the roster.
It's simply not true and it's been demonstrated multiple times through player interviews the value solid veterans bring in the background.
Hamonic at $1.1M isn't the issue. It's the NMC, guaranteeing a spot on the roster is wasted on him. The second year is just piling on.

LOL at $2M in $85M cap world being even close to true top 4 money.

And Brannstrom while having flaws will score 20 points (almost all at even strength) and be a plus player (ie. not getting caved in). A defenseman who scores 20 points in an 82 game season and is a positive at even strength (on a bad team at that) is well worth $2M, regardless of how sheltered people feel he's been.

People may not like Brannstrom, and that's fine, but $2M is nothing in today's NHL and he's given good value for that.
It's right on the cusp, actually. 147 players making $2M+ in a league with 32 teams, means a distribution of 4.5 per team. It's a touch higher if you remove the LTIRetired players from the list.

As to the second bolded part, it's not a feeling, it's irrefutable fact. He gets #5 minutes, he's often sheltered, he's not counted on for the primary PK, his QoC is fairly low, his deployment indicates sheltering. I don't know why you make it sound like people are projecting this on to him. Watch him play, review the advanced stats and let the 2 form a complete picture instead of pretending this is some gut feeling someone has.
 

bicboi64

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It's simply not true and it's been demonstrated multiple times through player interviews the value solid veterans bring in the background.
Nothing this current roster says about what they like or prefer holds any weight for me. They all shat the bad this season and weren't good enough. Their needs and what they value can go flying out the window.

We've had such poor quality vet leadership that they think Hamonic provides value. Look how that value has turned out for us performance wise and on ice results. Hamonic isn't the sole reason we're shite, but he's a part of the problem and moving him would be addition by subtraction.
 

Alf Silfversson

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It's not as far off as you might think,

2mil is 147th in Cap hit, so with 32 teams, top 4 would be 128. top 5 would be 160, so he's more than half way there from "5" to "4" territory.

That said, there are D playing in the top 4 that arguably don't make top 4 money (on their ELC for example) and guys in the bottom 2 that make "top 4" money.

The second part is the key.

Outside of ELCs no one is getting a bona fide top 4 D for close to $2M. $3M is probably the baseline.

$2M is the going rate for a 5th D which is exactly what Brannstrom is.
 

Alf Silfversson

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Again, a problem that was entirely avoidable by not signing Brannstrom. This team needed a veteran RHD who would sign for less than $1.5M, they absolutely did NOT need an undersized bottom-pairing LHD getting $2M. There's your roster flexibility and cap flexibility solved in one go. Hamonic was never paid to be a full-time roster player, while Brannstrom was paid close to top 4 money. Hamonic's NMC would be completely irrelevant if they hadn't signed Brannstrom to $2M.

It's simply not true and it's been demonstrated multiple times through player interviews the value solid veterans bring in the background.

It's right on the cusp, actually. 147 players making $2M+ in a league with 32 teams, means a distribution of 4.5 per team. It's a touch higher if you remove the LTIRetired players from the list.

As to the second bolded part, it's not a feeling, it's irrefutable fact. He gets #5 minutes, he's often sheltered, he's not counted on for the primary PK, his QoC is fairly low, his deployment indicates sheltering. I don't know why you make it sound like people are projecting this on to him. Watch him play, review the advanced stats and let the 2 form a complete picture instead of pretending this is some gut feeling someone has.

When you factor in ELCs that play in the top 4 he's even farther away. He's a 5th D and is paid pretty much exactly in line with that.

Guess what happens to 5th or 6th D around the league? They play lesser competition. Sheltered. Much less like Hamonic was this year. Much like Kleven will be if he makes the team next year. Much like basically every 3rd pairing out there. The guys getting paid $4M plus play the hard minutes.

But plenty of players (Hamonic being a prime example on our team) get these same minutes and produce less and get scored on more than Brannstrom.

He's been good at what he's been asked to do and within his role. Hamonic has been terrible from the get-go this year. One of them is signed and guaranteed a roster spot next year and the other isn't.

Hamonic's signing was a mistake and remains an issue, albeit a relatively small one compared to some of the gaffes we've seen in recent years.
 

Micklebot

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Apr 27, 2010
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Again, a problem that was entirely avoidable by not signing Brannstrom. This team needed a veteran RHD who would sign for less than $1.5M, they absolutely did NOT need an undersized bottom-pairing LHD getting $2M. There's your roster flexibility and cap flexibility solved in one go. Hamonic was never paid to be a full-time roster player, while Brannstrom was paid close to top 4 money. Hamonic's NMC would be completely irrelevant if they hadn't signed Brannstrom to $2M.

It's simply not true and it's been demonstrated multiple times through player interviews the value solid veterans bring in the background.

It's right on the cusp, actually. 147 players making $2M+ in a league with 32 teams, means a distribution of 4.5 per team. It's a touch higher if you remove the LTIRetired players from the list.

As to the second bolded part, it's not a feeling, it's irrefutable fact. He gets #5 minutes, he's often sheltered, he's not counted on for the primary PK, his QoC is fairly low, his deployment indicates sheltering. I don't know why you make it sound like people are projecting this on to him. Watch him play, review the advanced stats and let the 2 form a complete picture instead of pretending this is some gut feeling someone has.
The team didn't really need a veteran RHD, that's evident based on him being the guy that gets healthy scratched while Brannstrom is being paid in line with the role he's been playing (5th Dman getting 5th money and being used in the top 4 when injuries strike). If we needed Hamonic, he'd play over Brannstrom but he simply hasn't, even when it meant playing Brannstrom or Chychrun on their off side

Beyond that, even if we accept that we shouldn't have signed Brannstrom, an RFA that some would argue still had upside, and is being paid commensurate with his role, it does not make the Hamonic signing good or even acceptable, nor does it explain why would would give him a full NMC for two years.

So much mental gymnastics is needed to try and justify the Hamonic signing, it's honestly crazy.
 

Alf Silfversson

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The team didn't really need a veteran RHD, that's evident based on him being the guy that gets healthy scratched while Brannstrom is being paid in line with the role he's been playing (5th Dman getting 5th money and being used in the top 4 when injuries strike). If we needed Hamonic, he'd play over Brannstrom but he simply hasn't, even when it meant playing Brannstrom or Chychrun on their off side

Beyond that, even if we accept that we shouldn't have signed Brannstrom, an RFA that some would argue still had upside, and is being paid commensurate with his role, it does not make the Hamonic signing good or even acceptable, nor does it explain why would would give him a full NMC for two years.

So much mental gymnastics is needed to try and justify the Hamonic signing, it's honestly crazy.

Dorion is gone but the Dorion cult is still in its death throes.
 

Tuna99

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The team didn't really need a veteran RHD, that's evident based on him being the guy that gets healthy scratched while Brannstrom is being paid in line with the role he's been playing (5th Dman getting 5th money and being used in the top 4 when injuries strike). If we needed Hamonic, he'd play over Brannstrom but he simply hasn't, even when it meant playing Brannstrom or Chychrun on their off side

Beyond that, even if we accept that we shouldn't have signed Brannstrom, an RFA that some would argue still had upside, and is being paid commensurate with his role, it does not make the Hamonic signing good or even acceptable, nor does it explain why would would give him a full NMC for two years.

So much mental gymnastics is needed to try and justify the Hamonic signing, it's honestly crazy.

What’s crazy is they never got a real RD partner for Chabot the entire time he’s been here. Just drafted Thomas and told him - it’s all on you to make this team better and we aren’t sending help.
 

Burrowsaurus

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What’s crazy is they never got a real RD partner for Chabot the entire time he’s been here. Just drafted Thomas and told him - it’s all on you to make this team better and we aren’t sending help.
That sounds like something the worst GM is pro sports would do
 
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Micklebot

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What’s crazy is they never got a real RD partner for Chabot the entire time he’s been here. Just drafted Thomas and told him - it’s all on you to make this team better and we aren’t sending help.
I mean, we had DeMelo, but Smith decided to move him to the bottom pair with boro to play Chabot with Zaitsev and Hainsey, then we got Zub with him for a year before separating them too.
 

Burrowsaurus

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I mean, we had DeMelo, but Smith decided to move him to the bottom pair with boro to play Chabot with Zaitsev and Hainsey, then we got Zub with him for a year before separating them too.
You don’t need demelo when you have the chance to acquire of the leagues elite defenders. Best feet in the NHL lmao

They could have been very safe with Demelo and zub. But nah. Zaitsev gidbrannson brown
 
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Tuna99

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I mean, we had DeMelo, but Smith decided to move him to the bottom pair with boro to play Chabot with Zaitsev and Hainsey, then we got Zub with him for a year before separating them too.

Really interesting interview with Kacies a martin today and he’s talking about the wrong fits for players and Chabot never having an established RD to begin with.

2 interviews in a row Martin has mentioned Tampa and the trades they made to support the 5 key players they drafted (Stamkos, Pointe, Kucherov, Ciccerelli and Hedman) and he says the Tampa model is one Ottawa should look at - expect big mvoes

Said Brady isn’t playing a mature game and he has a ways to go to learn winning hockey and leadership. Hat was interesting

Also said Ottawa needs to do something. Abiut both goalies
 

Micklebot

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Really interesting interview with Kacies a martin today and he’s talking about the wrong fits for players and Chabot never having an established RD to begin with.

2 interviews in a row Martin has mentioned Tampa and the trades they made to support the 5 key players they drafted (Stamkos, Pointe, Kucherov, Ciccerelli and Hedman) and he says the Tampa model is one Ottawa should look at - expect big mvoes

Said Brady isn’t playing a mature game and he has a ways to go to learn winning hockey and leadership. Hat was interesting

Also said Ottawa needs to do something. Abiut both goalies
Not sure who Kacies a Martin is, do you have a link? Assuming you just mean Jacques Martin?
 

Tuna99

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Not sure who Kacies a Martin is, do you have a link? Assuming you just mean Jacques Martin?

Yes sens twitter feed. 2nd interview in a row he’s mentioned Julien Brisebois creating that core in Tampa through trades and targeting certain players with complimentary skill sets

Also the 2021 Chabot/Tkachuk going into Dorion’s office and demanding immediate upgrades so they can make the playoffs. (That was 2 season ago poor guys) obvious under Dorion Players were running the asylum and that’s why we had no direction or plan. the real Dorion plan was just keep Tkachuk happy - real hockey decision weren’t happening
 

BankStreetParade

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When you factor in ELCs that play in the top 4 he's even farther away. He's a 5th D and is paid pretty much exactly in line with that.
...
You don't factor in ELCs because they don't have any true or relative contract value. It's a contract that every "entry-level" player gets, with a few minor exceptions. Real contract values, indicative of player quality or projected quality, are negotiated post-ELC. That's where a team and player negotiate the player's value to determine compensation. You know you're intentionally making a disingenuous point and you don't seem to have any problem with it.
The team didn't really need a veteran RHD, that's evident based on him being the guy that gets healthy scratched while Brannstrom is being paid in line with the role he's been playing (5th Dman getting 5th money and being used in the top 4 when injuries strike). If we needed Hamonic, he'd play over Brannstrom but he simply hasn't, even when it meant playing Brannstrom or Chychrun on their off side
How does this make any sense? Why would a guy who got a contract for much less money than Brannstrom be the guy who's "supposed" to be playing ahead him? Hamonic is the 7th D, so why would the team play him over Brannstrom who's paid closer to top 4 money?
Beyond that, even if we accept that we shouldn't have signed Brannstrom, an RFA that some would argue still had upside, and is being paid commensurate with his role, it does not make the Hamonic signing good or even acceptable, nor does it explain why would would give him a full NMC for two years.

So much mental gymnastics is needed to try and justify the Hamonic signing, it's honestly crazy.
Mental gymnastics? The f***ing nerve you have. The only objective way to look at it is that this team ABSOLUTELY DID NOT need a $2M LHD for the bottom pairing and this team ABSOLUTELY DID NEED an RHD to sign for $1.5M or less. Keep trying to spin it any way you want but it won't change the facts.
Dorion is gone but the Dorion cult is still in its death throes.
Keep talking about cults yet it's never the people supposedly in the cult who keep bringing up the guy's name. Remind me how that works again? Oh right, you can't because it's bullshit and only meant as a cheap way to discredit or dismiss someone's opinion. You sound like someone with some sort of derangement syndrome to me.
 

Golden_Jet

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How does this make any sense? Why would a guy who got a contract for much less money than Brannstrom be the guy who's "supposed" to be playing ahead him? Hamonic is the 7th D, so why would the team play him over Brannstrom who's paid closer to top 4 money.
So Sanderson should play below Branny then because he makes less and on ELC, lol,
just seems like your cherry picking to make Branny a second pairing.
yes ALL contracts matter.
 
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Micklebot

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You don't factor in ELCs because they don't have any true or relative contract value. It's a contract that every "entry-level" player gets, with a few minor exceptions. Real contract values, indicative of player quality or projected quality, are negotiated post-ELC. That's where a team and player negotiate the player's value to determine compensation. You know you're intentionally making a disingenuous point and you don't seem to have any problem with it.

How does this make any sense? Why would a guy who got a contract for much less money than Brannstrom be the guy who's "supposed" to be playing ahead him? Hamonic is the 7th D, so why would the team play him over Brannstrom who's paid closer to top 4 money?

Mental gymnastics? The f***ing nerve you have. The only objective way to look at it is that this team ABSOLUTELY DID NOT need a $2M LHD for the bottom pairing and this team ABSOLUTELY DID NEED an RHD to sign for $1.5M or less. Keep trying to spin it any way you want but it won't change the facts.

Keep talking about cults yet it's never the people supposedly in the cult who keep bringing up the guy's name. Remind me how that works again? Oh right, you can't because it's bullshit and only meant as a cheap way to discredit or dismiss someone's opinion. You sound like someone with some sort of derangement syndrome to me.
2 mil is what a 5th Dman makes, we didn't bring in Chych so that he, Chabot or Sanderson could play on the bottom pair so yeah, we did need a bottom pair LD just as much if not more that a bottom pair RD since we had JBD under contract.
The reality is we traded for Chychrun to play RD, for better or worse, so saying we needed a bottom pair at best RD more than a bottom pair LD is just disingenuous, it ignores what you full well know, our top 4 was going to include one of our LHD playing RD by design.

So ya, you are doing mental gymnastics to justify your opinion, all so that you can lament how people keep rightfully criticizing that we gave two years and a NMC to a guy that is a 7th d by your own admission. Such a bizarre hill to die on.
 
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Burrowsaurus

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Really interesting interview with Kacies a martin today and he’s talking about the wrong fits for players and Chabot never having an established RD to begin with.

2 interviews in a row Martin has mentioned Tampa and the trades they made to support the 5 key players they drafted (Stamkos, Pointe, Kucherov, Ciccerelli and Hedman) and he says the Tampa model is one Ottawa should look at - expect big mvoes

Said Brady isn’t playing a mature game and he has a ways to go to learn winning hockey and leadership. Hat was interesting

Also said Ottawa needs to do something. Abiut both goalies
Guys tell me what exactly DJ was doing with these kids for five years. “Keeping them positive” while Dorion making the worst moves known to man. Incredible duo
 
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Sens of Anarchy

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Really interesting interview with Kacies a martin today and he’s talking about the wrong fits for players and Chabot never having an established RD to begin with.

2 interviews in a row Martin has mentioned Tampa and the trades they made to support the 5 key players they drafted (Stamkos, Pointe, Kucherov, Ciccerelli and Hedman) and he says the Tampa model is one Ottawa should look at - expect big mvoes

Said Brady isn’t playing a mature game and he has a ways to go to learn winning hockey and leadership. Hat was interesting

Also said Ottawa needs to do something. Abiut both goalies
got a link? Who is Kacies?

I would agree with that. Brady is an important piece but defensively he has a lot to learn.. They were not asked or taught to defend which is a big reason why the coaching change had to happen before the 21-22 season. Brady has improved but lots of room left.
 
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BankStreetParade

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So Sanderson should play below Branny then because he makes less and on ELC, lol,
just seems like your cherry picking to make Branny a second pairing.
yes ALL contracts matter.
ELCs have no real or perceived value and hold nearly zero negotiating power, hence why they are not an accurate representation of a player's true worth. It's the only part of the NHL where players exist in a closed market. Whereas, on the open market, we see a more accurate reflection of player valuations as they gain bargaining power. Also, I never said Brannstrom was a second pairing, I said he was paid on the cusp of being a top 4, which he objectively is.
2 mil is what a 5th Dman makes, we didn't bring in Chych so that he, Chabot or Sanderson could play on the bottom pair so yeah, we did need a bottom pair LD just as much if not more that a bottom pair RD since we had JBD under contract.
The reality is we traded for Chychrun to play RD, for better or worse, so saying we needed a bottom pair at best RD more than a bottom pair LD is just disingenuous, it ignores what you full well know, our top 4 was going to include one of our LHD playing RD by design.

So ya, you are doing mental gymnastics to justify your opinion, all so that you can lament how people keep rightfully criticizing that we gave two years and a NMC to a guy that is a 7th d by your own admission. Such a bizarre hill to die on.
So this team was better off with Brannstrom making $2M for the bottom pairing instead of shipping him off for futures and using that money for cap and roster flexibility? You keep running around in circles trying to make an insanely convoluted argument that a bottom-pairing guy making $1.1M was worse for our cap and roster flexibility than a bottom-pairing guy making $2M. Also, I never said that the decision to give him a NMC was good. I only said he had the right to ask for it given his status in the league and the fact that he most likely accepted less money for it. And the overall point I was making was that he was such a low-grade issue for this team that it's hard to imagine people being that bothered by it, given everything else that's wrong.
 

GCK

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Oct 15, 2018
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ELCs have no real or perceived value and hold nearly zero negotiating power, hence why they are not an accurate representation of a player's true worth. It's the only part of the NHL where players exist in a closed market. Whereas, on the open market, we see a more accurate reflection of player valuations as they gain bargaining power. Also, I never said Brannstrom was a second pairing, I said he was paid on the cusp of being a top 4, which he objectively is.

So this team was better off with Brannstrom making $2M for the bottom pairing instead of shipping him off for futures and using that money for cap and roster flexibility? You keep running around in circles trying to make an insanely convoluted argument that a bottom-pairing guy making $1.1M was worse for our cap and roster flexibility than a bottom-pairing guy making $2M. Also, I never said that the decision to give him a NMC was good. I only said he had the right to ask for it given his status in the league and the fact that he most likely accepted less money for it. And the overall point I was making was that he was such a low-grade issue for this team that it's hard to imagine people being that bothered by it, given everything else that's wrong.
Dude I know you get it but are loving to pretend to be obtuse. Hamonic is no longer an NHL player and by giving him an NMC Dorion wasted a roster spot. Combine that with Dorion having no idea how to manage a cap we were stuck running Hamonic out there rather than a callup. Did Dorion overpay Brannstrom, yes he did but at least he’s an NHL 6/7 who can be in a lineup.
 

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