Player Discussion Erik Brännström |5'10, 181lbs | Left Handed Defenceman

[Micklebot]

I think this will he interesting to watch. At the conclusion of 3 seasons from now, Stone will have 5 years left on his deal. And I think Brannstrom will have established himself firmly as a point producing D man and Stone will be declining. It'll be interesting to see when / if Brannstrom establishes himself as the more valuable player

When Stone will start to decline is an interesting question in and of itself; he's not a guy that relies on speed, so how much of an impact with a decline in his skating and such actually have? Will he be like Alfredsson, and have his best years from 29-36? Or will he be like Heatley who's production rapidly declined from 29 onward.

My personal belief is guys who rely on hockey sense are typically the guys that have slower declines. Sakic, Alfredsson, Thornton all come to mind as guys who's decline was gradual because of their ability to use their hockey sense to adapt to changing physical abilities. I think Stone should be like that.

Obviously, injuries/health can throw a monkey wrench into things; Spezza's back as an example.

In Brannstrom, I have what I consider to be high hopes, but I see him as a Krug level player. I think Stone has a fair bit of buffer zone above Krug, so if he starts regressing in year 3, there's some leeway.

Time will tell, and as you say, it will be interesting to watch.

 

[Cosmix]

Look who is ranked 21st

NHL prospect rankings: Top 50 players in NHL pipelines for 2019-20

Good for Brannstrom at 21 and Drake Batherson at 33.

I also looked at who was ranked at other spots and noted a few players the Senators could have drafted:
17. Joe Veleno, C, Detroit Red Wings

28. K'Andre Miller, D, New York Rangers

48. Eeli Tolvanen, RW, Nashville Predators

 

[JD1]

When Stone will start to decline is an interesting question in and of itself; he's not a guy that relies on speed, so how much of an impact with a decline in his skating and such actually have? Will he be like Alfredsson, and have his best years from 29-36? Or will he be like Heatley who's production rapidly declined from 29 onward.

My personal belief is guys who rely on hockey sense are typically the guys that have slower declines. Sakic, Alfredsson, Thornton all come to mind as guys who's decline was gradual because of their ability to use their hockey sense to adapt to changing physical abilities. I think Stone should be like that.

Obviously, injuries/health can throw a monkey wrench into things; Spezza's back as an example.

In Brannstrom, I have what I consider to be high hopes, but I see him as a Krug level player. I think Stone has a fair bit of buffer zone above Krug, so if he starts regressing in year 3, there's some leeway.

Time will tell, and as you say, it will be interesting to watch.

I certainly agree that guys with hockey sense have slower declines. But my view is that those guys are able to adapt their game as they lose that first half step, then the second.

I don't view Stone as a guy that has much of a step to lose. And when you lose a step, hockey sense becomes less useful if you cannot keep pace. The guys you sighted had no issues keeping pace.

Go back and look at my post history....I was more sorry to see Duchene go. I think he could reinvent himself a couple of times over as a useful player because his skating is elite. I dont see that with Stone and not having him on the books for 8 years will benefit this team in the end imo

 

[DaveMatthew]

I certainly agree that guys with hockey sense have slower declines. But my view is that those guys are able to adapt their game as they lose that first half step, then the second.

I don't view Stone as a guy that has much of a step to lose. And when you lose a step, hockey sense becomes less useful if you cannot keep pace. The guys you sighted had no issues keeping pace.

Go back and look at my post history....I was more sorry to see Duchene go. I think he could reinvent himself a couple of times over as a useful player because his skating is elite. I dont see that with Stone and not having him on the books for 8 years will benefit this team in the end imo

I think it's the opposite.

Duchene relies on his skating, not his hockey sense. He'll have to reinvent himself once his skating declines, and it's not that easy to just become a high IQ player in your 30's if you haven't been one your whole career. Guys who rely on skating in the 20's don't tend to age all that well.

The smart guys tend to stick around longer, because they're skating drop off isn't as big, and they already know how to use other skills. Look at guys like Thornton, Pavelski, Giroux, etc.

Giroux just put up 187 points in his last 164 games despite being over 30, small and slow - because of his brain and hands.

Then you have guys like McDavid and Crosby who have both. They're the superstars.

 

[Agent Zub]

I certainly agree that guys with hockey sense have slower declines. But my view is that those guys are able to adapt their game as they lose that first half step, then the second.

I don't view Stone as a guy that has much of a step to lose. And when you lose a step, hockey sense becomes less useful if you cannot keep pace. The guys you sighted had no issues keeping pace.

Go back and look at my post history....I was more sorry to see Duchene go. I think he could reinvent himself a couple of times over as a useful player because his skating is elite. I dont see that with Stone and not having him on the books for 8 years will benefit this team in the end imo

Stones skating still seems to be getting better every year.

And besides if there's any one player in the league who can still be effective while being a below average skater its Mark Stone.

I'd be a lot more concerned with Matt Duchene losing a step as that has been his bread and butter his entire career.

 

[JD1]

Stones skating still seems to be getting better every year.

And besides if there's any one player in the league who can still be effective while being a below average skater its Mark Stone.

I'd be a lot more concerned with Matt Duchene losing a step as that has been his bread and butter his entire career.

There is a lot of history in the NHL of elite skaters reinventing their games as their skating deteriorates. Their history is far better than the history of the average to below average skater losing a step.

 

[bert]

When Stone will start to decline is an interesting question in and of itself; he's not a guy that relies on speed, so how much of an impact with a decline in his skating and such actually have? Will he be like Alfredsson, and have his best years from 29-36? Or will he be like Heatley who's production rapidly declined from 29 onward.

My personal belief is guys who rely on hockey sense are typically the guys that have slower declines. Sakic, Alfredsson, Thornton all come to mind as guys who's decline was gradual because of their ability to use their hockey sense to adapt to changing physical abilities. I think Stone should be like that.

Obviously, injuries/health can throw a monkey wrench into things; Spezza's back as an example.

In Brannstrom, I have what I consider to be high hopes, but I see him as a Krug level player. I think Stone has a fair bit of buffer zone above Krug, so if he starts regressing in year 3, there's some leeway.

Time will tell, and as you say, it will be interesting to watch.

Yeah he wont be regressing in 3 years, its a falacy that some specific posters keep posting based on 0 plausible reasoning, the chances of it happening without a freak injury are very low. He drives the play by him self unlike heatley and he has elite hockey sense and absolutely loves the sport and loves to win. Those types of competitive guys that are dedicated like him are the ones that stay elite for long periods of time.

If Brannstrom gets to a Timonen/Krug level ill be very pleasantly suprised that would be huge if he can be a legit top 3 d man.

Good for Brannstrom at 21 and Drake Batherson at 33.

I also looked at who was ranked at other spots and noted a few players the Senators could have drafted:
17. Joe Veleno, C, Detroit Red Wings

28. K'Andre Miller, D, New York Rangers

48. Eeli Tolvanen, RW, Nashville Predators

Miller is the really tough one, the Rangers traded for the sens pick to grab him and he is a star in the making. Managment really must be praying that JBD turns out.

I think it's the opposite.

Duchene relies on his skating, not his hockey sense. He'll have to reinvent himself once his skating declines, and it's not that easy to just become a high IQ player in your 30's if you haven't been one your whole career. Guys who rely on skating in the 20's don't tend to age all that well.

The smart guys tend to stick around longer, because they're skating drop off isn't as big, and they already know how to use other skills. Look at guys like Thornton, Pavelski, Giroux, etc.

Giroux just put up 187 points in his last 164 games despite being over 30, small and slow - because of his brain and hands.

Then you have guys like McDavid and Crosby who have both. They're the superstars.

Great post, absolutely accurate. Another player that comes to mind is Adam Oates. Anyone taking Duchene over Stone... Yikes. Not only is Stone younger, more elite but he works way harder and cares more.

Jagr was never fast and he is still playing pro, he relies on a big body, hard work, hockey sense and elite skills. Alot of similarties to Stone just far more elite.

 

[2CHAINZ]

I don't care if Stone declines next year and Brannstrom turns into Lidstrom next year. Mark Stone should've been traded for more and never signed to that one year muppet contract.

 

[Agent Zub]

There is a lot of history in the NHL of elite skaters reinventing their games as their skating deteriorates. Their history is far better than the history of the average to below average skater losing a step.

The history of players losing a step and still being productive is with elite hockey IQ players.

Stones hockey IQ is on a significantly higher tier than Matt Duchenes.

 

[guyzeur]

The history of players losing a step and still being productive is with elite hockey IQ players.

Stones hockey IQ is on a significantly higher tier than Matt Duchenes.

Sure about Stone having a better IQ than Duchene. But because people see Duchene's skating they seem to underestimate his IQ and any other abilities or skills he may have.

 

[Sensmileletsgo]

No longer wants to play for the team or ownership no longer wants the player to play for the team? I have a feeling that if the Ottawa Senators had normal ownership and management, 65 and 61 are still Senators.

Oh ya for sure. Ottawa will always be at a disadvantage because of high taxes and the fact that a large number of players want to play in the States. Throw in a terrible cheap owner and I can’t see Ottawa keeping any high talented player approaching free agency.

It’s f***ing laughable that the day of the trade Vegas fans were either upset or on the fence about giving up Brannstrom for Stone. That opinion lasted for about 10 minutes after seeing Stone in a Vegas jersey and then they realized they got a player who is the best on their team and an underrated star.

 

[JD1]

Yeah he wont be regressing in 3 years, its a falacy that some specific posters keep posting based on 0 plausible reasoning, the chances of it happening without a freak injury are very low.

I am not posting a fallacy based on zero reasoning. I am posting my opinion and it is based on an overwhelming amount of evidence that supports it. You can go read up on what the evidence says or you can choose to not do that and continue posts like yours that I am quoting which are based on zero reasoning.

Duchene went from the draft to an 81 game rookie season. Stone went from the draft to two more years of junior followed by two more years in the AHL before making the NHL full time in his D +5 year. What held him back? It certainly wasn't his elite IQ was it? Or his compete level? No it wasn't. It was his skating. Thats very well documented. It's not my opinion. It's a fact. Imo a guy that struggled and worked that hard to skate at an nhl level will lose that ability faster than a guy that is considered an elite natural skater. I don't think that is an outrageous opinion either. Duchene went from the draft table directly to an nhl lineup never having played a game in the minors. Guys like that will lose their offensive prowess but can hang on in the league in a variety of roles. Guys that can't skate anymore disappear quickly. It doesn't matter if they can't skate because of injury or whether they were just subpar skaters to begin with. When it's gone it's gone and it doesn't matter how you lost it. In Stone's case, I think that regression starts to really take hold around 30 and statistically speaking, ALL of the evidence supports that belief. The only question with Stone is how long can he remain elite as his skating deteriorates?

 

[TkachukNorris79]

I think this will he interesting to watch. At the conclusion of 3 seasons from now, Stone will have 5 years left on his deal. And I think Brannstrom will have established himself firmly as a point producing D man and Stone will be declining. It'll be interesting to see when / if Brannstrom establishes himself as the more valuable player

We also got a Dallas 2nd in that deal. Should have been a 1st aka Krebs, but Dorion couldn't swing that. A 2nd seems like nothing but in what's supposedly the deepest draft in years, coupled with our strength in drafting, that pick could also be a player. Brannstrom doesn't have to be as good as Stone for us to win that deal. If he's a Krug level player, and that 2nd turned out to be a good middle 6 player, that's a win for us. Idk I do think Krug is pretty friggin good, but definitely a level below Stone

 

[bert]

I am not posting a fallacy based on zero reasoning. I am posting my opinion and it is based on an overwhelming amount of evidence that supports it. You can go read up on what the evidence says or you can choose to not do that and continue posts like yours that I am quoting which are based on zero reasoning.

Duchene went from the draft to an 81 game rookie season. Stone went from the draft to two more years of junior followed by two more years in the AHL before making the NHL full time in his D +5 year. What held him back? It certainly wasn't his elite IQ was it? Or his compete level? No it wasn't. It was his skating. Thats very well documented. It's not my opinion. It's a fact. Imo a guy that struggled and worked that hard to skate at an nhl level will lose that ability faster than a guy that is considered an elite natural skater. I don't think that is an outrageous opinion either. Duchene went from the draft table directly to an nhl lineup never having played a game in the minors. Guys like that will lose their offensive prowess but can hang on in the league in a variety of roles. Guys that can't skate anymore disappear quickly. It doesn't matter if they can't skate because of injury or whether they were just subpar skaters to begin with. When it's gone it's gone and it doesn't matter how you lost it. In Stone's case, I think that regression starts to really take hold around 30 and statistically speaking, ALL of the evidence supports that belief. The only question with Stone is how long can he remain elite as his skating deteriorates?

I made a full post you could have quoted all of it. Agreed that weak skaters leave the NHL faster than ever but not stars that are literally top 5 in their position. Variables like how dedicated and hard a player works are factors too. Youre comparing two players on opposite ends of the spectrum. One wants to win a cup one more than anything and one wants to play country music. Thats how these two players essentially chose their destinations. Stone is more excited when a teammate scores than himself. Duchene cellies his biggest when he hits bonus money on a throw away season.

High end hockey sense players with poor/average skating play for a long time. Thornton, Jagr, Oates etc. Listen to Adam Oates and what skill development he is teaching. Half of it is working on balance and positioning. Playing with your head up and not putting yourself in vulnerable positions. Passing under pressur etc. Essentially hockey sense. Meanwhile he talks about how jumping over cones stick handling is useless.

 

[JD1]

I made a full post you could have quoted all of it. Agreed that weak skaters leave the NHL faster than ever but not stars that are literally top 5 in their position. Variables like how dedicated and hard a player works are factors too. Youre comparing two players on opposite ends of the spectrum. One wants to win a cup one more than anything and one wants to play country music. Thats how these two players essentially chose their destinations. Stone is more excited when a teammate scores than himself. Duchene cellies his biggest when he hits bonus money on a throw away season.

High end hockey sense players with poor/average skating play for a long time. Thornton, Jagr, Oates etc. Listen to Adam Oates and what skill development he is teaching. Half of it is working on balance and positioning. Playing with your head up and not putting yourself in vulnerable positions. Passing under pressur etc. Essentially hockey sense. Meanwhile he talks about how jumping over cones stick handling is useless.

I quoted what was relevant. Micklebot and I were exchanging some views and you quoted his response to me, basically stating my view was a fallacy. Let's be clear here: it is your view that is a fallacy. ALL of the information that is available supports my opinion. My opinion is based on having read the information. I didn't make it up. I didn't adopt that view to defend mgmt. I've held that view for some time. I am sorry to see Stone gone but I wouldn't have signed him to an 8 year deal either.

You are listing 3 guys that are in the HHoF, or in Jumbo's case will be. And while it is certainly true that those players played a long time and I'll grant you that they weren't known as elite skaters, I dont recall their skating ever being questioned which Stone's was/is but also...let's be honest...Stone isn't on the same tier as those three.

 

[bert]

I quoted what was relevant. Micklebot and I were exchanging some views and you quoted his response to me, basically stating my view was a fallacy. Let's be clear here: it is your view that is a fallacy. ALL of the information that is available supports my opinion. My opinion is based on having read the information. I didn't make it up. I didn't adopt that view to defend mgmt. I've held that view for some time. I am sorry to see Stone gone but I wouldn't have signed him to an 8 year deal either.

You are listing 3 guys that are in the HHoF, or in Jumbo's case will be. And while it is certainly true that those players played a long time and I'll grant you that they weren't known as elite skaters, I dont recall their skating ever being questioned which Stone's was/is but also...let's be honest...Stone isn't on the same tier as those three.

Well I guess you just dont share the same opinion as most hockey people when it comes to Stone. Based on your assesment you dont see him like the hockey news or the analytics people.

You keep saying your theory is correct but you havent shown anything to prove it, you just keep repeating yourself. Not for a moment do I believe you have superior hockey knowledge to me, you consistently do not show it and the post history backs this up, your takes are consistently innacurate. Its not clear to anyone that my views are incorrect relative to yours, just look at the responses in every thread its not the weak posters dissagreeing with you.

 

[JD1]

Well I guess you just dont share the same opinion as most hockey people when it comes to Stone. Based on your assesment you dont see him like the hockey news or the analytics people.

You keep saying your theory is correct but you havent shown anything to prove it, you just keep repeating yourself. Not for a moment do I believe you have superior hockey knowledge to me, you consistently do not show it and the post history backs this up, your takes are consistently innacurate. Its not clear to anyone that my views are incorrect relative to yours, just look at the responses in every thread its not the weak posters dissagreeing with you.

You are quite a character. You struggle with differentiating between fact and fiction, between theories and proven realities.

I dont hold any theory that NHL players begin to decline, in part from decreased skating, as they enter their 30s. That's not a theory Bert. That is a proven reality. I dont need to prove it, you need to read more. I'm not aware of any reputable study that suggests otherwise. If you are, please stop the babble de goop and link one.

Stone had a great year. Yes yes you noted him as being the 17th best player in the hockey news ranking . Do you think these lists are fluid from year to year? Sports net had him as the 82nd best player in 2018. The hockey news had him as the 48th in 2018. Tsn had him at 49th. In 2017 he wasn't in tsn's top 50 list.

I never once alleged I had superior hockey knowledge to you Bert. I actually find it odd that you felt you needed to type those words. But since you brought it up, I will say that you seem to highly value your opinion, clearly have difficulties with others opinions which frequently results in insults and name calling, and you appear to not spend any considerable time reading what the research says. You mention analytics yet seem unaware of what analytics has to say about aging.

I really dont have any interest in continuing to argue with you Bert. You have an issue with me in large part because I dont hold the same opinions as you.

I'm out. So long Bert.

 

[JD1]

I think it's the opposite.

Duchene relies on his skating, not his hockey sense. He'll have to reinvent himself once his skating declines, and it's not that easy to just become a high IQ player in your 30's if you haven't been one your whole career. Guys who rely on skating in the 20's don't tend to age all that well.

The smart guys tend to stick around longer, because they're skating drop off isn't as big, and they already know how to use other skills. Look at guys like Thornton, Pavelski, Giroux, etc.

Giroux just put up 187 points in his last 164 games despite being over 30, small and slow - because of his brain and hands.

Then you have guys like McDavid and Crosby who have both. They're the superstars.

Just noticed this post now.

Hockey IQ is a difficult thing to measure and it's a bit incorrect to believe that Duchene lacks hockey IQ. he was drafted 3rd, went straight from the draft to the nhl, has twice played for Canada in best on best events. For certain he will need to reinvent himself as he slows down but that's my point, he CAN do that. There is no reinventing yourself if you cannot keep pace.

Giroux. Look at the year prior to the stars you posted. He played 82 games. 58 points. He couldn't skate like himself. Hip surgery. Back to his old self. Good to go. Yes he was injured that season. Not enough to take time off though. His rebound was in part related to health but also aided by a move to the wing. Point being when the skating deteriorates it doesn't matter why. It only matters if it is permanent or temporary. In Giroux's case it was temporary. In an aging case its permanent and moving to the wing isn't a fall back position for Stone. Duchene can go from 1c to 2c to 3c to top 6 wing to defensive guy. His skating will allow that. A guy that cannot keep pace can only retire

 

[DaveMatthew]

Just noticed this post now.

Hockey IQ is a difficult thing to measure and it's a bit incorrect to believe that Duchene lacks hockey IQ. he was drafted 3rd, went straight from the draft to the nhl, has twice played for Canada in best on best events. For certain he will need to reinvent himself as he slows down but that's my point, he CAN do that. There is no reinventing yourself if you cannot keep pace.

Giroux. Look at the year prior to the stars you posted. He played 82 games. 58 points. He couldn't skate like himself. Hip surgery. Back to his old self. Good to go. Yes he was injured that season. Not enough to take time off though. His rebound was in part related to health but also aided by a move to the wing. Point being when the skating deteriorates it doesn't matter why. It only matters if it is permanent or temporary. In Giroux's case it was temporary. In an aging case its permanent and moving to the wing isn't a fall back position for Stone. Duchene can go from 1c to 2c to 3c to top 6 wing to defensive guy. His skating will allow that. A guy that cannot keep pace can only retire

Giroux, today, is not a strong skater. He never was a strong skater. He was a top player because of his hands, creativity and brain. And that's why he's jumped back to form.

Duchene relies much more on his physical traits than Stone (or Giroux). He's a top player because he wins more foot races and is much stronger/quicker down low than most defenseman. Stone is a top player because he's able to slow the game down and has incredible hands and stickwork.

Stone's game, IMO, is more sustainable as he ages.

But either way, I think they'll both be effective into their 30's and am of the opinion we should have signed both!

 

[Micklebot]

Just noticed this post now.

Hockey IQ is a difficult thing to measure and it's a bit incorrect to believe that Duchene lacks hockey IQ. he was drafted 3rd, went straight from the draft to the nhl, has twice played for Canada in best on best events. For certain he will need to reinvent himself as he slows down but that's my point, he CAN do that. There is no reinventing yourself if you cannot keep pace.

Giroux. Look at the year prior to the stars you posted. He played 82 games. 58 points. He couldn't skate like himself. Hip surgery. Back to his old self. Good to go. Yes he was injured that season. Not enough to take time off though. His rebound was in part related to health but also aided by a move to the wing. Point being when the skating deteriorates it doesn't matter why. It only matters if it is permanent or temporary. In Giroux's case it was temporary. In an aging case its permanent and moving to the wing isn't a fall back position for Stone. Duchene can go from 1c to 2c to 3c to top 6 wing to defensive guy. His skating will allow that. A guy that cannot keep pace can only retire

Giroux didn't just lose a step though, he was skating like he was 40 not 28 and likely playing through pain the entire time. He still managed to be roughly a 60pts player though. Whether its stone or Duchene, neither guy is going to maintain effectiveness with that serious an issue.

 

[Larionov]

Late to the party on this, but that Sporting News ranking made me laugh. They put Zadina fourth, even though they acknowledged that he had a pretty pedestrian year in the AHL, and a disappointing World Juniors. Despite all that, he's still fourth? For the love of God, why? The author just had a hunch. It kind of blows the credibility of the rest of the list out of the water.

So does Brannstrom become Krug, or closer to EK? I was intrigued watching him in his brief audition here - when you see a guy handle the puck with that much confidence and make such a nice first pass every time, it's a great sign. He'll be an analytics darling, that's for certain. Not sure he'll ever have EK's top end speed, but in terms of his puckhandling ability and skill on the power play, he could end up highly comparable.

Still, though, Mark Stone. (sigh) One of the best players ever to pull on a Sens uniform, and we ship him out of town in his prime. It's an even more unforgivable trade than EK in that EK is two years older and had many more injury miles on the odometer. You could maybe/sort of/kind of understand the hesitation to do an eight year deal there. (Notwithstanding management's halfhearted claim that they tried to sign him.) But Stone? Stone will be a straight up stud for at least the next three seasons, probably more. I think he ends up on the Olympic team in 2022. His $9 mil for the year will start looking like a steal by Christmas...

 

[Akrapovince]

It’s not a clear cut recipe or formula but this is what I think...

Stone was never a fast skater, so losing a step isn’t going to affect his game the same way losing a step will be for Matt Duchene.

I don’t care about his draft pedigree or his underrated hockey IQ, if Duchene loses his speed and doesn’t adapt, he’s going to find his later years to be much more difficult as opposed to Stone. (And look, no one is saying he can’t adjust- but that’s the thing, he HAS to adjust his game whereas Stone doesn’t)

Look at Karlsson, he doesn’t lack hockey IQ, creativity or hands- and his game is already looking different without speed. Granted it’s from an injury, you can see still see what taking away someone’s main attribute can do to them.

Here’s the one caveat though, McDavid (Duchene) is a blessed skater and uses his speed as his main weapon. I definitely think he’s going to age his game much better than let’s say another player who didn’t use his speed was.

Again, not clear concise recipe.

 

[JD1]

Giroux didn't just lose a step though, he was skating like he was 40 not 28 and likely playing through pain the entire time. He still managed to be roughly a 60pts player though. Whether its stone or Duchene, neither guy is going to maintain effectiveness with that serious an issue.

Giroux played 82 games that season.

Hands and IQ. Neither disappears or reappears overnight unless maybe your Bobby ryan and broke your hand for the umpteenth time.

Giroux played 82 games back to back seasons. Same hands. Same iq. Explain the 58 points versus the 102 the following year.

 

[Micklebot]

Giroux played 82 games that season.

Hands and IQ. Neither disappears or reappears overnight unless maybe your Bobby ryan and broke your hand for the umpteenth time.

Giroux played 82 games back to back seasons. Same hands. Same iq. Explain the 58 points versus the 102 the following year.

What exactly are you trying to prove here? Giroux's issue was recovering from his hip injury. There's an interview where he talks about it. That's not losing a step naturally over time, he doesn't skate the same today as he did when he was 23, but he adapted and continues to put up points. When he had a hip injury, or was recovering from hip surgery and still not confident in his health, it affected him.

Are you suggesting Stone will start skating like a guy who need/just had hip and hernia surgery in the near future and see a drastic decline in his skating? Or are we talking about guys naturally losing a step over time as they age? The two are very different issues and affect performance in different ways.

 

[Sweatred]

You guys are trying to split some pretty thin hairs ... a million uncontrollable, unpredictable issues affect people lives and athletic production. Maybe the guy has triplets, divorce, drug habit, stops training, diet issues, injuries etc.