GWT: EPL - Matchweek 18

[Machinehead]

Also (didn't watch the game, just catching the highlights now) you'd have a very very tough time persuading me that that wasn't an intentional handball from Odegaard

And, regardless of intention, it's one of the most bafflingly obvious penalties I've ever seen

I don't know if there's a prefect way to assess a handball but I can't stand the recent precedence of "natural position."

It's such an absolutely meaningless term.

The explanation on the US broadcast was that he was falling down so his arm was in a natural position.

My body is in a natural position when I'm shitting. I still try very hard not to use my hands.

 

[Machinehead]

I genuinely have no clue what is and is not a handball in the EPL anymore and I am a certified referee.

Nobody does because literally anything can be a "natural position." I have it on good authority that the majority of EPL players are using human bodies.

 

[Power Man]

Not a penalty imo, Odegaard lost his balance

 

[Savant]

I don't know if there's a prefect way to assess a handball but I can't stand the recent precedence of "natural position."

It's such an absolutely meaningless term.

The explanation on the US broadcast was that he was falling down so his arm was in a natural position.

My body is in a natural position when I'm shitting. I still try very hard not to use my hands.

We’ve been told continuously that you need to be in control of your body

Not a penalty imo, Odegaard lost his balance

Need to be in control of your body

 

[Machinehead]

Liverpool got a red card this year on a play where somebody slipped on the ball and spiked an opponent while he was falling.

Either you're responsible for your body or you're not. That should be consistent across every type of foul.

 

[Power Man]

We’ve been told continuously that you need to be in control of your body


Need to be in control of your body

lol.

 

[Savant]

lol.

Even Saliba thought it was a PK

 

[KJS14]

Ben Tan wouldn’t start at Spurs

Romero might not even make Arsenal's bench.

Liverpool got a red card this year on a play where somebody slipped on the ball and spiked an opponent while he was falling.

Either you're responsible for your body or you're not. That should be consistent across every type of foul.

They should give out yellow cards for every single foul, so it's consistent across every type of foul then.

Liverpool fans are low key kind of happy that they have another borderline call to moan about even though a ton of calls went your way today too.

Even Saliba thought it was a PK

Sounded like he thought they were asking about the Havertz one. Don't think he would have said "I'm not a ref and have to accept it" in response to the Odegaard one.

 

[Machinehead]

They should give out yellow cards for every single foul, so it's consistent across every type of foul then.

That doesn't align with what I said at all.

Either accidents are fouls or they're accidents and we look the other way. That should be consistent.

With handballs, we're at the point where you can do pretty much anything if they determine you didn't mean to. Nowhere near the same leniency is afforded to contact with the opponent.

 

[KJS14]

That doesn't align with what I said at all.

Either accidents are fouls or they're accidents and we look the other way. That should be consistent.

With handballs, we're at the point where you can do pretty much anything if they determine you didn't mean to. Nowhere near the same leniency is afforded to contact with the opponent.

It aligns in the sense that you think different types of actions should be called exactly the same as each other. It's not a black and white game. Comparing the Jones red card to the handball today is complete nonsense.

 

[Chimaera]

It’s borderline. I think it might be a penalty, but I understand why not.

If you argue you don’t want to have things like that decide matches, I get it. But it looked like one on the quick review I saw.

 

[Machinehead]

It aligns in the sense that you think different types of actions should be called exactly the same as each other. It's not a black and white game. Comparing the Jones red card to the handball today is complete nonsense.

It's not different.

Jones didn't mean to spike the opponent while he was falling down and Odegaard didn't mean to handle the ball while he was falling down.

The rules still count when players are out of control of their bodies or they don't.

 

[KJS14]

It's not different.

Jones didn't mean to spike the opponent while he was falling down and Odegaard didn't mean to handle the ball while he was falling down.

The rules still count when players are out of control of their bodies or they don't.

One accident ended up with the player's studs in the middle of his opponent's shin. I didn't think it deserved a red card given the circumstances, but you're just dumbing down two completely different plays as "accidents."

Do you think the Tsimikas "accident" where he hit/pushed Saka in the face in the first 10 mins today should have been a violent conduct red card?

 

[Machinehead]

One accident ended up with the player's studs in the middle of his opponent's shin. I didn't think it deserved a red card given the circumstances, but you're just dumbing down two completely different plays as "accidents."

Because there should be some level of consistency on how officials look at accidental offenses.

Sure, it's not a black and white game, but with the majority of other fouls, some onus is on the offending player for what they're doing with their body, which I think is fair.

When it comes to handballs, "ah well, he didn't mean it" is the prevailing ruling.

This is not an isolated incident. The recent trend is that players are meaningfully affecting play with their hands, and short of outright picking up the ball, they rarely call it. It's something I've found foolish since it began, and called out many times before it involved Liverpool in this particular game.

Do you think the Tsimikas "accident" where he hit/pushed Saka in the face in the first 10 mins today should have been a violent conduct red card?

You keep bringing up cards which adds the element of severity. That's apples to oranges. I only brought up the red card to refer to the incident.

Yes, contact to an opponent's face should be a foul pretty much always.

 

[KJS14]

Because there should be some level of consistency on how officials look at accidental offenses.

Sure, it's not a black and white game, but with the majority of other fouls, some onus is on the offending player for what they're doing with their body, which I think is fair.

When it comes to handballs, "ah well, he didn't mean it" is the prevailing ruling.

This is not an isolated incident. The recent trend is that players are meaningfully affecting play with their hands, and short of outright picking up the ball, they rarely call it. It's something I've found foolish since it began, and called out many times before it involved Liverpool in this particular game.

If you truly think there must be absolute consistency between accidents that could recklessly injure players and accidents that just result in a stoppage/penalty because a player's hand touched the ball, then idk what to tell you. The handball rules clearly specify that the natural vs unnatural position is a factor, and the league has been consistently calling ones where the player reaches for the ground to balance/slide as non-fouls.

 

[Machinehead]

If you truly think there must be absolute consistency between accidents that could recklessly injure players and accidents that just result in a stoppage/penalty because a player's hand touched the ball, then idk what to tell you. The handball rules clearly specify that the natural vs unnatural position is a factor, and the league has been consistently calling ones where the player reaches for the ground to balance/slide as non-fouls.

And you probably didn't see this as I edited to add, but do you think the Tsimikas "accident" where he hit/pushed Saka in the face in the first 10 mins today should have been a violent conduct red card then?

I answered that above.

I find the whole thing silly. Virtually everything can be argued to be a natural position. They're human.

I've been saying it since this trend started and I'm not interested in a "my team could beat up your team" back and forth.

This has nothing to do with this particular result.

 

[KJS14]

I find the whole thing silly. Virtually everything can be argued to be a natural position. They're human.

I've been saying it since this trend started and I'm not interested in a "my team could beat up your team" back and forth.

This has nothing to do with this particular result.

I don't think I'm igniting a "my team could beat up your team" back and forth. I just don't see how you can rationally compare those two plays just because they can both be over-simplified to "have to be responsible for your body position."

So what then? Every time the ball makes contact with a defenders hand in the box we award a penalty? If a ball hits the defender's hand while it's in front of his body (not making him bigger) from close proximity, should we give a penalty because he needs to be responsible for where his hand was? There isn't a simple, one size fits all solution for the handball rules.

 

[Machinehead]

I don't think I'm igniting a "my team could beat up your team" back and forth. I just don't see how you can rationally compare those two plays just because they can both be over-simplified to "have to be responsible for your body position."

So what then? Every time the ball makes contact with a defenders hand in the box we award a penalty? If a ball hits the defender's hand while it's in front of his body (not making him bigger) from close proximity, should we give a penalty because he needs to be responsible for where his hand was? There isn't a simple, one size fits all solution for the handball rules.

If that went against Arsenal you'd be saying the opposite. It is what it is. We're all fans. I get that.

I value consistency over anything else, and I want the officials making decisions as little as possible. We've seen that even with VAR and even on black and white rulings, they still get it wrong.

If it's in front of his body or in back of his body (not making himself bigger) then of course that's not a handball. All contact with the hands at the side should be a handball. It's consistent. I'd rather have that and sometimes a defender gets a tough break, over sitting here arguing over what "natural position" is, which doesn't mean anything. It's such a stupid concept.

You can disagree with that. That's fine. Maybe there's another way to do it. I would rather have anything but "natural position." I think it's the dumbest rule in sports. If a player scratches his nuts, it's a natural position.

 

[KJS14]

If that went against Arsenal you'd be saying the opposite. It is what it is. We're all fans. I get that.

I value consistency over anything else, and I want the officials making decisions as little as possible. We've seen that even with VAR and even on black and white rulings, they still get it wrong.

If it's in front of his body or in back of his body (not making himself bigger) then of course that's not a handball. All contact with the hands at the side should be a handball. It's consistent. I'd rather have that and sometimes a defender gets a tough break, over sitting here arguing over what "natural position" is, which doesn't mean anything. It's such a stupid concept.

You can disagree with that. That's fine. Maybe there's another way to do it. I would rather have anything but "natural position." I think it's the dumbest rule in sports. If a player scratches his nuts, it's a natural position.

I mean I didn't even make the argument that the Odegaard one wasn't a penalty. This whole conversation started because I said trying to compare consistency between that handball call and the jones red card makes no sense, as they are entirely different plays.

And to circle back to my previous rebuttal, if you only want consistency and less referee judgement in handball calls, then why not apply that to any foul? Why should we have referees judge whether a foul is just a stoppage vs yellow card vs red card? Maybe it's because you cannot make the game black and white just for the sake of referee consistency.

 

[Machinehead]

I mean I didn't even make the argument that the Odegaard one wasn't a penalty. This whole conversation started because I said trying to compare consistency between that handball call and the jones red card makes no sense, as they are entirely different plays.

And to circle back to my previous rebuttal, if you only want consistency and less referee judgement in handball calls, then why not apply that to any foul? Why should we have referees judge whether a foul is just a stoppage vs yellow card vs red card? Maybe it's because you cannot make the game black and white just for the sake of referee consistency.

I get that, in the grander scheme of the game. Some calls are not easy. I think this one should be. A hand is a hand. A ball is a ball. You brought up the only context (in front of the body) where there should be any doubt, and even then, it's obviously not a handball in that case, which we seem to agree on.

My problem with "natural position" is this: what is unnatural? Picking up the ball? Basically playing goal like Luis Suarez did against Ghana?

That's pretty much the lot. Everything but premeditated reaching out and grabbing the ball could be argued to be part of the body's natural motion. I'm not interested referees having that argument.

I'm not expecting perfection, but there has to be a better way to make a determination when the fact that the ball hit a hand is black and white.

 

[Epictetus]

Baffling that they didn't even send it to the ref to review.

That Boly red card was tragic.

The state of officiating in the PL is kind of putting me off the game. You just come to expect bad officiating every week.

 

[KJS14]

I get that, in the grander scheme of the game. Some calls are not easy. I think this one should be. A hand is a hand. A ball is a ball. You brought up the only context (in front of the body) where there should be any doubt, and even then, it's obviously not a handball in that case, which we seem to agree on.

My problem with "natural position" is this: what is unnatural? Picking up the ball? Basically playing goal like Luis Suarez did against Ghana?

That's pretty much the lot. Everything but premeditated reaching out and grabbing the ball could be argued to be part of the body's natural motion. I'm not interested referees having that argument.

I'm not expecting perfection, but there has to be a better way to make a determination when the fact that the ball hit a hand is black and white.

The current rules of (1) deliberate handball (e.g. moving hand to the ball) or (2) handball where the player has made themself unnaturally bigger seem fine to me. I do wish there was some more consistency in how the refs call it based on those rules, but I don't think having a black and white rule would be better.

In general, I'd rather games be decided by the normal course of play, not penalties given for any ball that hits a players hand out at his side within the 18 yard box.

 

[bluesfan94]

Liverpool got a red card this year on a play where somebody slipped on the ball and spiked an opponent while he was falling.

Either you're responsible for your body or you're not. That should be consistent across every type of foul.

Except the rules are different.

 

[Machinehead]

The current rules of (1) deliberate handball (e.g. moving hand to the ball) or (2) handball where the player has made themself unnaturally bigger seem fine to me. I do wish there was some more consistency in how the refs call it based on those rules, but I don't think having a black and white rule would be better.

In general, I'd rather games be decided by the normal course of play, not penalties given for any ball that hits a players hand out at his side within the 18 yard box.

Yeah, I can respect the idea that we don't want penalties for fairly inconsequential handballs. The rabbit hole there is that if you don't call them regardless of the danger, you then have referees sort of deciding in the back of their minds what's consequential.

I just don't trust them to do basically anything. That's the root of problem. I don't trust them for the same reasons that come up every weekend, and these threads go on ad nauseam about poor officiating.

Maybe football needs to consider adding to the number of referees on the field. Basketball has three honest-to-god referees on that tiny little court. Football has one on the whole pitch.

Video review is flawed as a concept. There's always hesitation to go against what their colleague called on the field. I would like see the opportunity for things to be discussed and have a second opinion between officials on the field. Since the advent of VAR, the assistants do basically nothing anyway. Why not actually put them on the pitch?

 

[IU Hawks fan]