GDT: End of Season Address + Locker Clean Out (Dubas says he can't guarantee Babcock back next season)

Tak7

Registered User
Nov 1, 2009
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I could handle it much better if the team went down fighting, using all available weapons. That was far from the case however which makes it incredibly frustrating and incredibly maddening that Babcock was a complete tool especially in game 7

Now that the dust has settled, I didn't really have any issue with the Leafs effort or fight last night. They were unlucky in the 2nd period.

Completely agree regarding Babcock - he's more at fault than the players IMO (unless your name is Andersen).
 
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Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
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Absolutely

They must be grilled. Why hasn't this team improved their position in 3 years?

Why aren't Dubas and Babcock on the same page.

Why didnt they go all in on the deadline like CBJ?

What are the problems with the core players? Why weren't they supplemented?

honestly. i don't even care that they went all in like Columbus. (Columbus's situation is a bit more different than ours). but there are a tonne of questions that need to be asked, and i don't even care if they answer them - but i think they should be asked.
 

Al14

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Jul 13, 2007
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I guarantee you Tampa has less points next year than this year. Are they trending down as well?

Don't be surprised if Boston has less points next year as well, as their key guys are on the wrong side of 30. Would that mean they're trending down?

Regular season points are a poor barometer of how a team is trending. The previous comment is correct in that the Leafs should be trending up, because their key guys are young. Matthews and Marner aren't even in their primes yet.
Yes, less points is trending down IMHO. Less points means less wins. Less wins in a season is trending down.

Trending up for our Leafs would be getting more regular season points, getting home ice advantage in the playoffs, and, making it past the 1st round. A similar points total next season, along with no home ice in playoffs, and, a 1st round playoff exit, would mean treading water, if not trending down.

How is regular season points a poor barameter of how a team is trending? Especially since the league uses point totals to determine playoff seeding and playoff participation.

I could really care less what the other teams are doing trend wise. Tampa may have burnt themselves out reaching their 62 wins this season. Maybe they pace themselves a little better next season, with fewer regular season points, and, be fresher for the playoffs. Maybe fatigue is determined to be the cause for their poor showing in the playoffs this season. The Hedman injury hurt them dearly too.
 

Duffman955

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Mar 4, 2010
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honestly. i don't even care that they went all in like Columbus. (Columbus's situation is a bit more different than ours). but there are a tonne of questions that need to be asked, and i don't even care if they answer them - but i think they should be asked.

I just hope they dont get asked the same suck up questions as usual

Ask these guys the tough questions. The city deserves better
 
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hullsy47

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Dec 7, 2005
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Now that the dust has settled, I didn't really have any issue with the Leafs effort or fight last night. They were unlucky in the 2nd period.

Completely agree regarding Babcock - he's more at fault than the players IMO (unless your name is Andersen).
no way Gardiner was ready to play .that second goal was a killer
u don't play gardner over rosen
 
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Nithoniniel

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Sep 7, 2012
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On a topic that has nothing to do with anything, what I wouldn't give to see a PP unit run by Marner from behind the net, Matthews and Nylander on their off-wings as shooting options, Tavares in front of the net and Rielly on the point. Running it from behind the net forces the defense to play with their backs to the mid lane, making it much harder for them to see the passing lanes. We could move the puck in a diamond and attack the slot from all sides. That's four guys who can QB if needed. Add some nice movement and quick puck movement to that and we can keep that defense spinning until their heads pop off. I'd be very curious to see how that would work.
 

Zack47

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Oct 21, 2017
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Yes, there are many targets in the blame game. But it only matters if and when the blame lands on the right target. My three are: Babcock (rigid, old school, does not get the best out of his players), Freddie (over-hyped, can't focus when it counts, lets in weak goals, not a goalie you will win series with), and Nylander (it's all bout him and his "flow").

IT'S NOT ABOUT KADRI. Everyone just back off this idiotic and easy explanation. Since in my job I study "causal inference", let's be clear: Kadri left in the second game, the Leafs were UP 3-2 in this series without him and could have won at home. Let me repeat that: after 5 games, they were UP 3-2. It is insane and pathetic to blame Kadri, when they could have won one more game. The media are all getting into lynch mob mode about Kadri, because he is an easy target. The reasoning about blaming him is so think it is ridiculous. Talking heads are saying it prevented Babcock from putting Nylander with Matthews. Come on people: that is not the key difference in this series, not with the way Nylander was playing. Anyone who thinks that would have saved us is not thinking clearly. Forget Kadri -- he is an easy target, for a reason, and I don't want to state that reason, because it's ugly.
 

Budsfan

Registered User
Sep 17, 2006
19,218
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So, end of playoffs player ratings. I'll keep it short. Will likely take a hiatus from the boards over the summer after this. Grades are more about satisfaction with their performance than purely how good they were. Here goes:

Matthews - ***** | Looked like a franchise player this series. Very happy with his performance.
Johnsson - **** | Quietly was effective both even strength and on the PP. He performed really well for us.
Kapanen - ** | Kapanen showcased all the flaws in his game this series. Used speed to create room, negated it with bad shots. His tunnel vision robbed Matthews of some of his best chances.
Tavares - *** | All in all, we needed more from our new star center. Good job against the Bergeron line, but at the end they were on the losing side at ES and didn't get it done on the PP.
Hyman - ** | Wasn't quite the normal Hyman. Good pest, but couldn't bring his board game to full life.
Marner - *** | Gonna take heat here, but I think Marner reached 12 GA in this series. Part of an awful PK, his line had a bad differential, and in the end we needed more from our superstar.
Nylander - *** | Gonna take heat here, but I think Nylander's series was the definition of decent. Did what you could expect given his usage, no more and no less.
Marleau - * | Could be the worst PP player I've seen in years. Komarov was better. For a few games, every play he made on the PP killed the attack. He gave us nothing.
Brown - ** | Brown looks like Gauthier with the puck. Actually, he looks worse. PK work solidifies his rating.
Gauthier - ** | He was 6'5" somewhere.
Ennis - **** | Ennis came in and energized our fourth line. I really liked him.
Moore - **** | Moore was honestly one of our best forwards at times, combining the energy, skating, and technical ability to not only create havoc but actually do something with it.

Rielly - ***** | Consistently pushed pace and offense for us. His breakouts was a strong point for us, and it felt like he was a difference maker most nights.
Hainsey - *** | I was so impressed with Hainsey through four games. I was less enthused about the next two. And then he had a rough Game 7.
Muzzin - *** | Muzzin did a lot right in difficult minutes, but I can't really give a higher grade to someone who lost his matchup by that much.
Zaitsev - *** | Had an overall strong series. Second fiddle to Muzzin, same issue. They get joint grades here.
Gardiner - * | Was a non-factor through six, due to injuries and few minutes. And then he was one of two players to give away the game in the first. Can't rate him differently.
Dermott - ** | Rough Game 7 for sure, but I liked him through the rest.

Andersen - ** | I was contemplating a higher grade, but the cheap first goal brought it down. Statistically, he underperformed again.

Babcock - * | Bad lines, overly reliant on the wrong players, no adjustments to issues that were evident even early on. Not a lot to like from Babs. We outplayed them, they outcoached us.

A change might be needed, and Babcock is the obvious choice to go. If you compare lines, we held our ground with the first. Second line was good for both. Our third line was better. Don't know about fourth, but they certainly looked better. We were the better team in almost all areas, except special teams. And there were no adjustments, and we ended up with the worst PK performance in history. Blame the players for playing bad, but nobody else can be blamed for a lack of adjustments than the coach. Nobody else can be blamed for having one of our worst offensive forwards get more and more ice time when we are down, while actually talented players take a seat. The second line lacked a playmaker, but instead of playing one there they used Kapanen, who had no chemistry with Matthews. Kaps always work down the lineup, because he use his speed to create his own chances, he doesn't rely on teammates. In fact, he's pretty bad at using them. Yet he was glued to Matthews.

We were the better team in five out of seven games. How the **** did we lose this?

Andersen was overworked during the season and should have been rested and keeping Sparks over McElhinney was a mistake.

Babcock made some mistakes but Dubas' also should share some blame, he didn't make some moves he could have the Defense needed another solid RHD and having to play an Injured Gardiner is very telling, plus the Kadri fiasco leaving us a man down for the second time in 1st round playoffs, keeping Kadri and Nylander without addressing those issues was ridiculous, most of the players he obtained were good players but as much as people think size doesn't matter, we lost a lot of battles along the Boards because of it, Muzzin was the best deal and he had a good playoff.
 

rumman

Registered User
Sep 10, 2008
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Should happen Thursday Morning.

Babcock on the firing line, either this spring, or next.

Media is going to hit Dubas hard with questions I think.
I wonder if Dubas will be wearing that arrogant smirk on his face?
 
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SprDaVE

Moderator
Sep 20, 2008
52,764
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I don't expect any thing said of relevance as usual with locker room day. Probably get some information on Hymans injury, maybe some other small injuries that will be talked about.

I expect Dubas to give a vote of confidence to Babcock and very likely reinforce the idea that they won't overreact to this series. Keep with the process.
 

rumman

Registered User
Sep 10, 2008
14,121
10,344
So, end of playoffs player ratings. I'll keep it short. Will likely take a hiatus from the boards over the summer after this. Grades are more about satisfaction with their performance than purely how good they were. Here goes:

Matthews - ***** | Looked like a franchise player this series. Very happy with his performance.
Johnsson - **** | Quietly was effective both even strength and on the PP. He performed really well for us.
Kapanen - ** | Kapanen showcased all the flaws in his game this series. Used speed to create room, negated it with bad shots. His tunnel vision robbed Matthews of some of his best chances.
Tavares - *** | All in all, we needed more from our new star center. Good job against the Bergeron line, but at the end they were on the losing side at ES and didn't get it done on the PP.
Hyman - ** | Wasn't quite the normal Hyman. Good pest, but couldn't bring his board game to full life.
Marner - *** | Gonna take heat here, but I think Marner reached 12 GA in this series. Part of an awful PK, his line had a bad differential, and in the end we needed more from our superstar.
Nylander - *** | Gonna take heat here, but I think Nylander's series was the definition of decent. Did what you could expect given his usage, no more and no less.
Marleau - * | Could be the worst PP player I've seen in years. Komarov was better. For a few games, every play he made on the PP killed the attack. He gave us nothing.
Brown - ** | Brown looks like Gauthier with the puck. Actually, he looks worse. PK work solidifies his rating.
Gauthier - ** | He was 6'5" somewhere.
Ennis - **** | Ennis came in and energized our fourth line. I really liked him.
Moore - **** | Moore was honestly one of our best forwards at times, combining the energy, skating, and technical ability to not only create havoc but actually do something with it.

Rielly - ***** | Consistently pushed pace and offense for us. His breakouts was a strong point for us, and it felt like he was a difference maker most nights.
Hainsey - *** | I was so impressed with Hainsey through four games. I was less enthused about the next two. And then he had a rough Game 7.
Muzzin - *** | Muzzin did a lot right in difficult minutes, but I can't really give a higher grade to someone who lost his matchup by that much.
Zaitsev - *** | Had an overall strong series. Second fiddle to Muzzin, same issue. They get joint grades here.
Gardiner - * | Was a non-factor through six, due to injuries and few minutes. And then he was one of two players to give away the game in the first. Can't rate him differently.
Dermott - ** | Rough Game 7 for sure, but I liked him through the rest.

Andersen - ** | I was contemplating a higher grade, but the cheap first goal brought it down. Statistically, he underperformed again.

Babcock - * | Bad lines, overly reliant on the wrong players, no adjustments to issues that were evident even early on. Not a lot to like from Babs. We outplayed them, they outcoached us.

A change might be needed, and Babcock is the obvious choice to go. If you compare lines, we held our ground with the first. Second line was good for both. Our third line was better. Don't know about fourth, but they certainly looked better. We were the better team in almost all areas, except special teams. And there were no adjustments, and we ended up with the worst PK performance in history. Blame the players for playing bad, but nobody else can be blamed for a lack of adjustments than the coach. Nobody else can be blamed for having one of our worst offensive forwards get more and more ice time when we are down, while actually talented players take a seat. The second line lacked a playmaker, but instead of playing one there they used Kapanen, who had no chemistry with Matthews. Kaps always work down the lineup, because he use his speed to create his own chances, he doesn't rely on teammates. In fact, he's pretty bad at using them. Yet he was glued to Matthews.

We were the better team in five out of seven games. How the **** did we lose this?
Nylander gets the same 3 stars as Marner, yes you need to take the summer off from these boards and do some honest soul searching.
 

ACC1224

Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
Aug 19, 2002
74,253
40,159
Prediction: Marleau states he still wants to play next season, and this board has a meltdown.
I take him wanting to play as a given.
Doubt he'll even be asked that since he's under contract.
 
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SnizzNasty88

Registered User
Mar 31, 2013
1,462
1,290
Toronto
Guys, this ripping of Andersen is so bad. He played well enough to win this series in 6 games and the team let him down. Do any of you realize how truly bad our defense core is? There is a lot of work to be done there. Freddy is absolutely fine. Also doesn’t help that we had an incompetent backup goalie that we could never go to with confidence to get Freddy some rest. Other fan bases on their in game chats they make fun of us for complaining about Andersen because he’s that good. You guys who rip him are just morons who have no idea what you’re talking about or don’t pay attention to the million good things he does. Sure he can let in a few stinkers, but this Swiss cheese D doesn’t help prevent them either. Frederik Andersen is an ELITE goaltender in this league and any other team other than maybe 5 times would take him over their current netminder.
 
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Suntouchable13

Registered User
Dec 20, 2003
43,613
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Toronto, ON
I don't expect any thing said of relevance as usual with locker room day. Probably get some information on Hymans injury, maybe some other small injuries that will be talked about.

I expect Dubas to give a vote of confidence to Babcock and very likely reinforce the idea that they won't overreact to this series. Keep with the process.

And what is the process? Give another guy 10+ for no playoff success whatsoever?
 

SprDaVE

Moderator
Sep 20, 2008
52,764
34,825
And what is the process? Give another guy 10+ for no playoff success whatsoever?

How long did it take Trotz and Ovechkin? Trotz had some amazing teams in Nashville. Ovechkin and the Caps had years of domination and couldn't even make the finals.

It's not always linear and sometimes it takes awhile... Can't just blow it up or make overreacting moves with one of the youngest cores in the league. Don't go sideways.
 

SprDaVE

Moderator
Sep 20, 2008
52,764
34,825
I am not talking about Cup, I am talking about a series win.

They will win one eventually and hopefully more. I think we'll be fine with the players we have. We can only hope they can go over that hump sooner rather than later.
 

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