GDT: End of Season Address + Locker Clean Out (Dubas says he can't guarantee Babcock back next season)

IBeL34f

Lilly-grin
Jun 3, 2010
8,226
2,649
Toronto
Inexperienced people typically aren't as good as things. How could you be confused by that?

I bet you say all the time that young rookie players haven't learned everything yet. Is that ageism?

Well... same goes for a rookie gm. He's young, and he clearly has no idea what the **** he's doing.
Every single good and experienced person in the world was once inexperienced. But just because he's a rookie GM in the NHL doesn't mean that he's totally inexperienced - (He's been involved in hockey operations as a scout, agent, and GM for over half of his lifetime, remember, and spent 3 years under the guidance of Lou) - or that he doesn't understand, or even exemplify, the qualities required to be a good GM.

As for your question about rookies, my response is that no one's learned everything, and if your expectation is for someone - rookie or vet, doesn't matter - to come in and know everything, then you're setting yourself up for constant disappointment. I expect every human being to have something further to learn, and don't hold omniscience as my gold standard of hockey management.

In his time in Toronto, he's helped build a winner out of our Marlies team, having implemented a coach and system that has thrived, and in his first year as Leafs GM he signed one of the biggest unrestricted free agents ever, and acquired a top-pairing defenseman without touching our main roster or our top prospects, while also leading our organization towards a broader way of analyzing hockey in the salary cap era - Your opinion that he has no idea what the f*** he's doing is a very subjective one, and one that I certainly disagree with.
 

IBeL34f

Lilly-grin
Jun 3, 2010
8,226
2,649
Toronto
JT was coming home regardless of who the GM was. Muzzin short term was a good deal, but lets see if he's here beyond next year before we call that trade a long term success.
So we have to be patient before we can praise him, but not before we can condemn him?

Seems fair.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mitchy

Throw More Waffles

Unprecedented Dramatic Overpayments
Oct 9, 2015
12,895
9,757
Every single good and experienced person in the world was once inexperienced. But just because he's a rookie GM in the NHL doesn't mean that he's totally inexperienced - (He's been involved in hockey operations as a scout, agent, and GM for over half of his lifetime, remember, and spent 3 years under the guidance of Lou) - or that he doesn't understand, or even exemplify, the qualities required to be a good GM.

As for your question about rookies, my response is that no one's learned everything, and if your expectation is for someone - rookie or vet, doesn't matter - to come in and know everything, then you're setting yourself up for constant disappointment. I expect every human being to have something further to learn, and don't hold omniscience as my gold standard of hockey management.

In his time in Toronto, he's helped build a winner out of our Marlies team, having implemented a coach and system that has thrived, and in his first year as Leafs GM he signed one of the biggest unrestricted free agents ever, and acquired a top-pairing defenseman without touching our main roster or our top prospects, while also leading our organization towards a broader way of analyzing hockey in the salary cap era - Your opinion that he has no idea what the **** he's doing is a very subjective one, and one that I certainly disagree with.
Refer to what I wrote in my previous post in this thread.

Long and short of it?

Regarding contracts, this season was arguably the most important year for a leafs gm in the modern era. Not exactly a good time to let a rookie "try and figure things out".
 
  • Like
Reactions: usernamezrhardtodo

usernamezrhardtodo

Registered User
Mar 26, 2014
2,280
2,715
69pt rookie season
63 pts in 62 games
73 pts in 68 games

Those are top line center numbers. Again he was not going to get less than 10.5M. It's going to be interesting to see what Barzal gets paid.

Injuries are definetly a concern but I don't think it factors in much in contract negotiations other than maybe bonuses based on games played. Crosby wouldn't be getting paid less based on his concussion history.

If he signed for 8yrs ...it would have been a fair deal for both sides. The fact that he got over 11 and he gets a NMC in the fifth year is beyond crazy...it means we can't even trade his ass at the deadline that 5th year if he is asking for crazy money again (which he will)...that to me was the absolute dumbest thing he could have done...letting him get to UFA without being able to get something for him in the worst case scenario. He let Nylander walk all over him and then the rest could smell the blood in the water. He should have had the stones to make Willy sit and send a message to the other guys...but nope...he caved and we got a pretty much useless player for 50-odd games and even worse in the playoffs. I like his trades and drafting ability..but these contracts are beyond stupid.

I really think he believes in the new age koombiah crap that he blabbers on about and the players are lining up to take advantage. The players don't want a family atmosphere...how can they when they are basically calling Kadri and Reilly suckers for giving the team good deals?
 

Ice Fight

Registered User
Nov 4, 2015
280
15
Had to take a little break from after that nightmare...JT has to be sick to his stomach seeing the Islanders do well also.

Hope everyone is having a good spring/almost summer otherwise!
 

hockeywiz542

Registered User
May 26, 2008
15,917
4,985
Mirtle: 2019-20 will be a defining season for the Kyle...
Unlike a year ago, doing little other than adding a big-name free agent isn’t going to be possible. Once the Leafs have RFAs Mitch Marner, Kapanen and Andreas Johnsson signed, they are going to be capped out.

Even if they’re creative with those deals, they’re likely already slightly over a projected $83-million cap with a roster minimum of 20 players that includes six near-league minimum contracts. And that’s with letting Jake Gardiner, Ron Hainsey, Ennis and the other UFAs walk.


It’s not ideal. And it’s not clear how exactly that would make them a better team.

This, however, is where Dubas can earn his money and his reputation as a GM. Lamoriello received plenty of plaudits for how he deconstructed that awful 2015-16 roster in exchange for assets and cap space; Dubas’ challenge here is not entirely different. But it’s harder.

Dubas needs to move out unwanted contracts for value while improving the roster around his young core. And he needs to make every single move with an eye on the budget, which is going to be especially tight in 2019-20.

The reality is that the Leafs’ young core is going to make roughly $50-million for at least the next two seasons. That’s money allocated to just six players: Tavares, Matthews, Marner, Rielly, Andersen and Nylander. Everything else is in flux.

What the Leafs can’t afford to have with the remaining ~$33-million is any waste. And that’s where the really difficult decisions and managerial creativity will need to come in.

.... No matter how you feel about the Matthews or Nylander contracts, the reality is they are not way out of line with the cap hit any GM was going to allocate those players. The room for significant error there was small.

Going forward, that’s going to change.

Because of the Leafs’ cap position and because of what they still need, I believe Dubas will be aggressive this offseason. I’m expecting some surprising moves and the roster to be significantly different by the fall.
 

Daisy Jane

everything is gonna be okay!
Jul 2, 2009
70,212
9,189
Honestly, this whole thing gets tiresome.

Dubas isn't bad because he's young - though I think a lot of the stuff that happened this season isn't helped because he's a more inexperienced GM. Holdouts happen regardless of who you are. Everyone makes mistakes (and a lot of crippling ones) and the best ones know how to get themselves out of sticky wickets as quickly as possible without putting their club behind the eight balll for too long. So truly. regardless if you don't like Dubas, or don't like Lou - can we please refrain of calling them "the teenager", the "young gm" (because that's not Dubas's name) - or "Dinosaur" because that's not Lou's name. if you're gonna snark on them, snark on them. but at least refer to them by their name.

the thing is, Dubas has a sticky mess to take care off, some of it is his own making and some of it is of the previous GMs. hopefully, it can be done without doing too much work or losing of assets, and then well see how we move on from there, per usual. Shanahan obviously saw something in Dubas and while he is not my #1 choice and, I do still trust Shanahan but right now, there is something NOT GOOD brewing in the organization (in my very humble opinion) and ti'd rather it got rectified sooner than later.
 

MJ65

Registered User
Jul 12, 2009
16,376
2,233
Toronto
I think all this talk about the future and the off season is too early to discuss - we should all remember that there is going to be lot of changes once the playoffs end, there is going to be lots of changes with almost all the organizations and at that time we can figure out who is available and who is with FA and all the trades
 

ottomaddox

Registered User
Oct 31, 2017
10,592
4,600
Toronto
Honestly, this whole thing gets tiresome.

Dubas isn't bad because he's young - though I think a lot of the stuff that happened this season isn't helped because he's a more inexperienced GM. Holdouts happen regardless of who you are. Everyone makes mistakes (and a lot of crippling ones) and the best ones know how to get themselves out of sticky wickets as quickly as possible without putting their club behind the eight balll for too long. So truly. regardless if you don't like Dubas, or don't like Lou - can we please refrain of calling them "the teenager", the "young gm" (because that's not Dubas's name) - or "Dinosaur" because that's not Lou's name. if you're gonna snark on them, snark on them. but at least refer to them by their name.

the thing is, Dubas has a sticky mess to take care off, some of it is his own making and some of it is of the previous GMs. hopefully, it can be done without doing too much work or losing of assets, and then well see how we move on from there, per usual. Shanahan obviously saw something in Dubas and while he is not my #1 choice and, I do still trust Shanahan but right now, there is something NOT GOOD brewing in the organization (in my very humble opinion) and ti'd rather it got rectified sooner than later.

Can you explain his comments about the PK? What would he have done differently? What does he plan on changing? Why does the PK land on him?
 

deletethis

Registered User
Mar 17, 2015
7,910
2,486
Toronto
Kyle created this mess he can straighten it out I wish I could find his comments when he side contracts are stressful on the players we want to make it is easy as possible that was his own words he really dropped the ball when he caved in to William. That will be his downfall

I'm a broken record but this is a fundamental error in strategy. Nobody, especially those represented by aggressively advocating agents/lawyers, is giving the team a break. That's not the nature of these negotiations. Know your opponent. Your opponent doesn't care about the competitiveness of your team. If you need a discount to make the numbers balance better for a competitive team, your opponent thinks someone else should give you that discount not his client.

P.S. 2018-19 was the defining season for Dubas. And the results were mixed.
 

deletethis

Registered User
Mar 17, 2015
7,910
2,486
Toronto
If giving out a contract that is smack average for players with that kind of start to his career is a GM's downfall, then there's a problem way beyond him.

The GM's downfall could be that player with his smack average contract producing, for over 60 games, like a player making half of that contract.
 

Nithoniniel

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
20,913
16,749
Skövde, Sweden
The GM's downfall could be that player with his smack average contract producing, for over 60 games, like a player making half of that contract.
Sounds pretty much the same to me. A GM giving out an average contract to a player who has a bad year should never be the end of him. If that was a good enough reason, no GM would survive more than two years in this league.
 

deletethis

Registered User
Mar 17, 2015
7,910
2,486
Toronto
Sounds pretty much the same to me. A GM giving out an average contract to a player who has a bad year should never be the end of him. If that was a good enough reason, no GM would survive more than two years in this league.

That contract is only one item of worry in terms of the GM's miscalculation. There are a few others but there is an opportunity still to correct many of them. Nothing can be done about giving Matthews full salary without buying even 1 free agency year. Sitting on his hands with regards to the Marner, Kapanen and Johnsson contracts is correctable with reasonable contracts and/or trading some of them off for cheaper replacement parts. The Marleau contract he inherited is correctable with a deal (including with the player) to send the player to another organization to be bought out. The suddenly inexperienced defense is correctable by finding a veteran or two to stabilize the defense next season. The backup goaltending is correctable by sourcing a decent veteran backup until one of the goaltending prospects starts knocking on the door of the NHL. The pointless insistence on carrying 7th and 8th defensemen who could barely play can be abandoned next season.
 

biotk

Registered User
Jan 3, 2017
7,091
5,520
Buffalo
Every single good and experienced person in the world was once inexperienced. But just because he's a rookie GM in the NHL doesn't mean that he's totally inexperienced - (He's been involved in hockey operations as a scout, agent, and GM for over half of his lifetime, remember, and spent 3 years under the guidance of Lou) - or that he doesn't understand, or even exemplify, the qualities required to be a good GM.

Dubas' experience before becoming GM is ridiculously more than Lou had when he became GM of the Devils.
 

ottomaddox

Registered User
Oct 31, 2017
10,592
4,600
Toronto
Sounds pretty much the same to me. A GM giving out an average contract to a player who has a bad year should never be the end of him. If that was a good enough reason, no GM would survive more than two years in this league.

I agree with you completely. That is the very reason why Dubas won't fire Babcock. If Dubas decides to fire Babcock and the next coach doesn't do much better then the heat is on Dubas. I think Dubas can dig himself out of this setback/failed season. A few changes to this roster (based on cost-cutting and positional need) could right this ship.
 

biotk

Registered User
Jan 3, 2017
7,091
5,520
Buffalo
Based on what?

Are you sure about that?

Dubas's GM related experience:
3 years GM of the Soo
4 years AGM of the Leafs and GM of the Marlies

Lou Lam's GM related experience:
4 years director of player personnel at Providence College
A couple months as President of the Devils
 

ottomaddox

Registered User
Oct 31, 2017
10,592
4,600
Toronto
Dubas's GM related experience:
3 years GM of the Soo
4 years AGM of the Leafs and GM of the Marlies

Lou Lam's GM related experience:
4 years director of player personnel at Providence College
A couple months as President of the Devils

You just omitted things to save face.

Let's just not say wild things anymore ok? Lou had a lot of experience before he became GM of the Devils. Yes Dubas had some good experience as well.
 

18leafsfan18

Registered User
Jul 28, 2012
3,056
1,831
Ontario
maybe the part in the presser where he blamed himself for not being more direct and allowed the negotiations to linger far too long, until he panicked and gave in to that idiotic contract

First of all... He blamed himself for a bunch of things that weren't entirely his fault. Like a good leader, unlike Ecocock.

Never said it wasn't Dubas' fault, it was involved but there is 2 sides of that contact negotiation, would you prefer he gave Nylander 8 ?

Second of all... How can you make a quote like "idiot contract" on a 6 year deal that is only 4 months in ?
 
  • Like
Reactions: SAMCRO44

Pi

Registered User
Nov 16, 2010
48,922
13,961
Toronto
The GM's downfall could be that player with his smack average contract producing, for over 60 games, like a player making half of that contract.



Are we blaming Nylander because he's not on PP1? That would be on the coach, not on Nylander.

He had no problems producing on ES. Nylander will be a steal by the end of next year. People who do not realize this are the same people who criticize Gardiner and do not realize how good the Leafs were when he was on the ice than off it, the same people who thought Rielly didn't have the ability to put up a lot of points because he doesn't have a great one timer.

They were wrong before and they will be wrong again.

Guys who can put up 60+ points in their ELC do not just become busts. He'll be near PPG next season.

If Nylander isn't good neither are all those players you see listed above. They are all garbage as they played more than Nylander and couldn't get more points.
 

hockeywiz542

Registered User
May 26, 2008
15,917
4,985
Grading Kyle Dubas after his first year as Leafs GM | The Star
Which brings us back to Dubas, another rookie general manager, albeit with a few differences. Dubas had been a GM before, with the Soo Greyhounds. Dubas was also promoted from within, whereas Ferguson had come from the St. Louis organization. It took Ferguson a while to figure out the politics of MLSE, whereas Dubas has had some time to get those right, and presumably has mastered them given he was the last man standing after Leafs president Brendan Shanahan made his managerial decisions a year ago.

But lets sum it up: Dubas is a young GM (33) from a hockey family, who apparently is deciding the fate of Mike Babcock, the veteran coach he inherited with back-to-back 100-point seasons while figuring out what to do with his guy (Sheldon Keefe) running the Marlies.

Yes, follow the Toronto Maple Leafs long enough, and you will have seen it all before.

Dubas, I'll grant you, has more of a vision than Ferguson, or most other GMs. Whether the word "tunnel" will ever be used in front of his vision remains to be seen, a product of whether he can learn from his own mistakes, and the mistakes of others.

Kyle Dubas: C

I don’t like Cs. They’re wishy-washy. When I got them in high school, it was accompanied by: Could apply himself better. That’s not what I mean by this C. Dubas works really hard. He’s incredibly involved. The results, however, are mixed. Averaging out some really good marks, with some really poor ones.
 

rimshot

Registered User
Jan 10, 2010
985
215
North of South Mtn.
First of all... He blamed himself for a bunch of things that weren't entirely his fault. Like a good leader, unlike Ecocock.

Never said it wasn't Dubas' fault, it was involved but there is 2 sides of that contact negotiation, would you prefer he gave Nylander 8 ?

Second of all... How can you make a quote like "idiot contract" on a 6 year deal that is only 4 months in ?
Ecocock??? The days of the Freudian slip are still with us I see. Or maybe; it is too early in the morning and the poster has just"woke".
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad