News Article: Eller: “The gap between the forwards and defencemen is too big a lot of the time...â€

[Mario le Magnifique]

Do you honestly believe yourself?

Just had to ask.

Do you honestly say anything constructive whatsoever in these threads ?

Just had to ask.

 

[Kriss E]

It's an execution problem. Forwards jump the gun, looking for a stretch pass when there's really no openings. Players should be able to read that and adapt to the required dump in, IF it's part of the system, which sincerely I believe it is but I clearly don't know and am just assuming.

So you think the players haven't been executing properly since last season? Because that's how far back people here have been discussing it.
Even if they have been doing it for a year without executing well, that also falls on the coach for not being able to correct obvious flaws.

 

[Mario le Magnifique]

Yep. Take some time to sit down with tapes of Kings, Hawks, Blues and Predators.. You will see the value of speed, short passes and supporting each other in units of 3

LOL dude

Kings and Preds do a lot of dumping, and surprisingly, Blues too.

Watch games dude.

 

[Pricef*]

They probably worked on it this week so Eller is saying it now. The players usually all preach to the media the same message and that message is usually what they've been told by the staff in the last couple of days. Do you guys seriously think that players go to the media to say what they dislike about their coach's system, give me a break please.

I seriously doubt that's a stab at MT

 

[Kriss E]

LOL dude

Kings and Preds do a lot of dumping, and surprisingly, Blues too.

Watch games dude.

That was his point. They dump it in but also move as a unit picking up speed from their own zone. It's not a stretch pass+dump in by one player, who most of the time doesn't even beat out the Dman to the puck to avoid contact.

 

[WeThreeKings]

That was his point. They dump it in but also move as a unit picking up speed from their own zone. It's not a stretch pass+dump in by one player, who most of the time doesn't even beat out the Dman to the puck to avoid contact.

Yep.. The Kings in particular have one guy dump the puck to an area, the two forwards have gained speed and are going to that area with strong stick positioning to force the other team into low percentage plays such as off the glass and out. The only lane they don't cut off is the pass to the other D partner because that's where the dumping forward is going looking for an opportunity to jump that pass and cause a turnover.

 

[Mario le Magnifique]

That was his point. They dump it in but also move as a unit picking up speed from their own zone. It's not a stretch pass+dump in by one player, who most of the time doesn't even beat out the Dman to the puck to avoid contact.

Yeah well that how I see it too.

Habs maybe use dump ins to tighten the defensive coverage, much like punts do in football, as from my PoV they're a counterattacking team and not a very good straightforward attacking team and possession driving team. The Habs and Kings style couldn't be more different even if in fact, they're both teams using a lot of dumping.

Or maybe it's systematic and a knock on Therrien's system, but in all honesty, our record, etc etc. Therrien as all humans, isn't perfect, is stubborn, etc, but what he instructed this young team is profesionnalism and work ethic, and it's the base of any success. Perhaps you guys are right to ask for his head but like DD threads all these threads can be summarized as MT bashing with a few well thought and insighful posts. It's just human nature to point at the negative and quickly forget the positive, and to me MT has bring a lot of good things to this team, although some criticism is justified.

I was watching 24CH the other day and I remember Plekanec talking to I don't remember, probably Galchenyuk, that he'd rather dump it in instead of making a turnover, that he thinks defense first. That's probably the whole team's mindset.

 

[Grant McCagg]

Eller indirectly complaining about the team's number one center's propensity for basket hanging?

 

[Cole Caulifield]

The writer of the article says : Don't take this as a criticism of MT.

HF boards : lol eller be dissing da coach with da plan.

Me : Not surprised. Typical day at HF boards where everything can be taken as criticism of MT or DD.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The writer of the article says : Don't take this as a criticism of MT.

HF boards : lol eller be dissing da coach with da plan.

Me : Not surprised. Typical day at HF boards where everything can be taken as criticism of MT or DD.

Whether he's levelling criticism at MT or not, it's a problem that's been there a long time. And that's on the coach.

 

[MathMan]

Perhaps that's also reason why the possession #s of the Habs aren't stellar either, because possession is overrated as evidenced that the Habs have had success using a more positionnal systematic approach.

If by "a more positional systematic approach" you mean "a really really really good goaltender", sure, but we already knew that.

I'm a little surprised that someone would look at the mess that is the Habs in the defensive zone and their zone exit and think "this is a positional systematic approach". :-o

 

[habsfanatics*]

If by "a more positional systematic approach" you mean "a really really really good goaltender", sure, but we already knew that.

I'm a little surprised that someone would look at the mess that is the Habs in the defensive zone and their zone exit and think "this is a positional systematic approach". :-o

I have a much bigger concern with MT's player usage than his system, his player usage and roster selection is a large contributor to their poor possession. Allen in over Gilbert, Weaver in over Beaulieu and on and on. Weise on the top line, Subban not allowed to carry the puck etc. These players don't have a ****ing prayer of having a positive possession, some just aren't good enough.

A good first step for MT would be to ice the best roster available to him, until he gets that right, I suspect any systemic changes to strategy might be asking too much.

 

[Cole Caulifield]

Whether he's levelling criticism at MT or not, it's a problem that's been there a long time. And that's on the coach.

If those are such big problems that have been there for a long time, you'd think this would also be reflected in our ability to win games.

This thread is the living proof of how biased you and most of this board is. This place has become almost unbearable. At this rate, we'd win the cup and everyone would cry about how DD and MT freeloaded their way to a cup.

 

[Smokey Thompson]

If those are such big problems that have been there for a long time, you'd think this would also be reflected in our ability to win games.

This thread is the living proof of how biased you and most of this board is. This place has become almost unbearable. At this rate, we'd win the cup and everyone would cry about how DD and MT freeloaded their way to a cup.

So you DO in fact think a team can win a cup whilst playing a centre who has 2 goals in 27 playoff games 18 minutes a game?

 

[Cole Caulifield]

So you DO in fact think a team can win a cup whilst playing a centre who has 2 goals in 27 playoff games 18 minutes a game?

When you have a minute, take a look at Datsyuk's first playoffs performances. I'm not comparing DD to Datsyuk.. but it's interesting to note that certain players take a little time to find their groove in the playoffs. 27 games is a very small sample. And I remember those games pretty well. Some of them were spent at wing with Gomez and Gionta. Some of them were with Pacioretty injured in the playoffs against the sens. And those were his first playoffs games.

Fast forward to last year's playoffs.. he didn't seem to hinder us all that much since we nearly went to the SCF. And he didn't produce at a crazy rate but then again.. for at least 7 of those games he was facing Bergeron+Chara and opening all kinds of room for the rest of the lineup.

But let's not have a balanced view of things. Here on HF boards it's all DD/MT hate 24/7 all day every day. I don't want to stand in the way of that.

So we can win a cup with DD making 3.5M. Yes we can. Of course. The problem is that you think DD is a major player on the team. He's not. He's not supposed to be.

 

[Habs Icing]

He did? Wow, amazing that it only took him about 100 games to figure this out...

You counted the games? Really? It's exactly 100 games.

No idea wtf you're talking about in terms of goalie switch or whatever and nobody gives a crap about it anyway...

What I'm talking about is if Eller is such an oblivous hockey player that he doesn't even realize the opposing team switched goalies, i doubt he could pick up on this forward-d-men gap.

As for him criticizing the coach or not, Eller seems to be putting it on the players. But the reality is that this has been a big problem for a long time now. It sure as hell isn't a roster issue. Not sure if Eller meant it as a backhanded slap or not - either way though, he's absolutely right about that part of our game being gummed up.

So our goaltending coach should be out there fixing this problem? Bergevin should be out there with a whistle in his mouth?

Just in case you talking out of your ass which I suspect is the case: the three coaches are: JJ, Jodoin, Lacroix. Where the puck do you see the goalie coach?

If the system isn't working or isn't being executed properly its up to the coach to fix it. That's his ****ing job!

Yeah I wonder how that went:

"Ah gee guys, I've been noticing that over the past 100 games or so we haven't really been executing this well. Let's work on this now that I've discovered it yesterday...."

First overall with an even goal differential, bad shots for and against, bad offense, bad PP.

All those negatives you mentioned are because of the 6 losses they had. 30-3 goal differential. Which goes to prove my point. This group of players is overachieving and they're overachieving because of Therrien's coaching

But a great goalie.

Yup, MT sure has coached this team into first place.

Well, if Bergevin had hired you maybe the Habs would have won the Stanley Cup in November

_______________________________________________

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

If those are such big problems that have been there for a long time, you'd think this would also be reflected in our ability to win games.

If we didn't have Price that would be the case. Fortunately he allows us to win games we shouldn't.

This thread is the living proof of how biased you and most of this board is.

There's that word again.. "bias." You use it a lot but you never define it. What exactly am I biased against aside from bad coaching?

Unless you're accusing me of being biased against bad coaching in which case I plead guilty.

BTW, in regards to "bias" this is the 2nd article this week asking about our systems. The first coming from SI and today on the NHL network the very same questions came up. How in the world are the Montreal Canadiens winning games playing like this? "The answer is Carey Price." He's the MVP of this team and without him it would be very, very ugly.

This place has become almost unbearable. At this rate, we'd win the cup and everyone would cry about how DD and MT freeloaded their way to a cup.

If we win the cup and we're playing the way we are now everyone should credit Price.

So you DO in fact think a team can win a cup whilst playing a centre who has 2 goals in 27 playoff games 18 minutes a game?

It's possible... but your goalie has to be really, really good.

 

[Bob b smith]

Skilled and small players benefitted from the rule changes in the 2004 lockout. They had the strongest scoring bump from before to after the lockout. Desharnais wouldn't have even played in the NHL pre-2004.

Datsyuk was always a great playoff performer when playing under the new rules post-2004. Desharnais always sucked in the playoffs under the new rules. What you need to do is find a comparable that sucked like Desharnais his first 3 years for about 30 games post-2004 lockout. Then turns it around to be a good playoff performer.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/hockey/nhl/wings/2005-09-26-datsyuk-deal_x.htm

"We're obviously very happy that we got Pavel back," Red Wings general manager Ken Holland said. "He's a talented young player that had a very good year for us two years ago, and we're hoping for more of the same. With the new rules, I think skilled players like Pavel are really going to be helped."

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

When you have a minute, take a look at Datsyuk's first playoffs performances. I'm not comparing DD to Datsyuk.. but it's interesting to note that certain players take a little time to find their groove in the playoffs. 27 games is a very small sample. And I remember those games pretty well. Some of them were spent at wing with Gomez and Gionta. Some of them were with Pacioretty injured in the playoffs against the sens. And those were his first playoffs games.

Fast forward to last year's playoffs.. he didn't seem to hinder us all that much since we nearly went to the SCF. And he didn't produce at a crazy rate but then again.. for at least 7 of those games he was facing Bergeron+Chara and opening all kinds of room for the rest of the lineup.

But let's not have a balanced view of things. Here on HF boards it's all DD/MT hate 24/7 all day every day. I don't want to stand in the way of that.

So we can win a cup with DD making 3.5M. Yes we can. Of course. The problem is that you think DD is a major player on the team. He's not. He's not supposed to be.

He's certainly used that way. It makes a major difference having him eat up those exploitation minutes with Max instead of having better players do it.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

When you have a minute, take a look at Datsyuk's first playoffs performances. I'm not comparing DD to Datsyuk.. but it's interesting to note that certain players take a little time to find their groove in the playoffs. 27 games is a very small sample. And I remember those games pretty well. Some of them were spent at wing with Gomez and Gionta. Some of them were with Pacioretty injured in the playoffs against the sens. And those were his first playoffs games.

Fast forward to last year's playoffs.. he didn't seem to hinder us all that much since we nearly went to the SCF. And he didn't produce at a crazy rate but then again.. for at least 7 of those games he was facing Bergeron+Chara and opening all kinds of room for the rest of the lineup.

But let's not have a balanced view of things. Here on HF boards it's all DD/MT hate 24/7 all day every day. I don't want to stand in the way of that.

So we can win a cup with DD making 3.5M. Yes we can. Of course. The problem is that you think DD is a major player on the team. He's not. He's not supposed to be.

He's certainly used that way. It makes a major difference having him eat up those exploitation minutes with Max instead of having better players do it.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

If those are such big problems that have been there for a long time, you'd think this would also be reflected in our ability to win games.

As much as I'm also pretty much done with Therrien, this is a very good point in his defense at this point. We're 153 games into the return of MT right now, and the team has something like a 0.641 Pts% over that decently long stretch. That's substantial.

On this thread topic more specifically, I think we've noticed this problem rear its head in a couple of different ways over the past few season, and it is a problem. Sort of. I think the strategy can be sound if you have the actual players to "sell" the threat to opponents.

It's kind of like route running/play calling strategy in football. Teams absolutely have to try the odd long ball just to keep defenses from constantly cheating and stuffing all the shorter routes. If you're a great play action quarterback (read: able to make reads/checkdowns quickly, and distribute balls quickly and accurately in traffic) you still need plays that force the defense to respect the possibility of tossing one behind them for a score. Thing is, if you don't have the right threats for the deep ball, or don't show enough particular skill dropping balls into receivers' hands down field, defenses aren't going to show enough respect for the threat to open up your preferred/strongest play selections.

So that brings us back to hockey. We've had Markov for a while. Subban has come into his own. Now we have Gonchar, too, and Beaulieu in the wings. We have the "quarterbacks" capable of long bombing - even if we'd prefer to see them grind out give and go or short passes ("play action") instead because of high percentage chance of completion. What we're slowly acquiring more of, though, are the players to run those "deep routes" as well. And they have to run those routes occasionally, because it takes successfully completing the odd one to make teams respect it and open up a bit of room in the middle.

Now, presuming the understanding is that stretch plays HAVE to be part of the playbook, we come full circle to Eller's comments about how frequently they're going to that page of the book. I'm still on the fence in my evaluation here, because I see us with the quarterbacks AND receivers here, and I see a decent amount of wins in the standings. As long as the system also includes a structured way of reacting to failed attempts that limits immediate odd-man rushes in the other direction, I don't think there's too much room for complaint. It's complicated, though, as you never know how much respect the opponent is going to give you until the first few shifts/attempts are behind you and you get a feel for what the defense is instructed to do.

My reservation is more with Therrien's ability to make timely, appropriate adjustments based on what can be read from the opponent. It seems to be his MO that the game plan is the game plan, and everyone is going to perform 60 combined minutes of it - almost regardless of who they're running it against and/or what adjustments THEY make in response. You also have to continue to make good use of the other plays that perhaps most of your team is actually better at - the "proper" mix of plays is still important. I think that can be a problem if you decidedly don't have the better squad (on paper at least) to start out with. Again, something we can feel confident about on most nights, but certainly not against everyone.

 

[Kriss E]

If those are such big problems that have been there for a long time, you'd think this would also be reflected in our ability to win games.

Not when you have a team with strong depth, good Dmen and arguably the best goalie in the NHL.
We have a good team, not just that but it's a very hard working one (you can give credit to Therrien for that) that is pretty resilient.
So unless you don't have the world's biggest idiot coach, we can still pull through.
But it's mostly due to the skills and depth of this team, not the coach and his creative ways. Therrien is bad, he's not the worst, but he's bad.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Forgot to add the bit where ability to win faceoffs partially mitigates the threat of committing icing too often as a result of the stretch pass strategy.

 

[Hoople]

Irony is ironic.

Eller ices the puck.

 

[Skip Bayless]

Whether he's levelling criticism at MT or not, it's a problem that's been there a long time. And that's on the coach.

It's a problem for 90% of the teams in the NHL.