Recalled/Assigned: Edvinsson, Berggren & others sent to GR

[SirKillalot]

So do over half our other defensemen...

This is a move that both makes the Wings worse and delays Edvinsson's development. What's playing 30 minutes in the AHL going to do for Simon? Nothing but firm up those synapses that are already laid down for slow hockey.

I believe that he will get the opportunity to build upon some of his offensive skills, in addition to that building confidence in majority of situations in regards to small rink. Adapting to angles, anticipation and movement with larger amount of minutes played. We know he is projected to be a defensive defenseman, but he can be a more well-rounded one if his seasoning in the AHL goes right. Still have to adapt to NHL pace when called up, but it doesn't hurt him to play a year in the AHL.

At the same time, given the situation the team is in, he has to be given every opportunity there is to succeed in the NHL before this team takes it up some notches and become top 4-5 in the conference.

At the moment this team is still a below the bubble team to any playoffs.

 

[NickH8]

View attachment 592439

NHL Equivalency and Prospect Projection Models: Building the NHL Equivalency Model (Part 2)

A Few Minor Updates on an Established Framework

towardsdatascience.com

This guy is making some great hockey stuff also outside of this study.

One thing I can say, this Czech league level what somewhat outlier, I don't know why. But others were in same kind of order, as some other studies have got results.

Not promising for AHL. Some of the guys probably just overrate the league. It's understandable because it's the 2nd most familiar at NA and for NA people and they could not care less what will happen at Europe.

How is NHLe calculated? If it's using historical data it could be skewed. AHL has a lot of vets called up for a few games while most guys coming from euro leagues are big name prospects.

 

[Henkka]

How is NHLe calculated? If it's using historical data it could be skewed. AHL has a lot of vets called up for a few games while most guys coming from euro leagues are big name prospects.

It's explained behind the link.

Go and read.

 

[SirloinUB]

80 (if you're not counting this preseason) but who's counting? Apart from you, but apparently not very well.

And the idea is that there's nothing for him to learn in the AHL that he can't learn (better) in the NHL.



(playoffs and relegation games count)

Oh my gosh.. 80 games? That’s changed absolutely nothing

 

[norrisnick]

Oh my gosh.. 80 games? That’s changed absolutely nothing

Correct, the AHL is still a waste of time for a player coming out of a pro league.

 

[Frk It]

View attachment 592439

NHL Equivalency and Prospect Projection Models: Building the NHL Equivalency Model (Part 2)

A Few Minor Updates on an Established Framework

towardsdatascience.com

This guy is making some great hockey stuff also outside of this study.

One thing I can say, this Czech league level what somewhat outlier, I don't know why. But others were in same kind of order, as some other studies have got results.

Not promising for AHL. Some of the guys probably just overrate the league. It's understandable because it's the 2nd most familiar at NA and for NA people and they could not care less what will happen at Europe.

How does this mean anything meaningful in regards to the overall quality of the league?

All this means is that ALL good young players in Sweden and Russia play in the SHL/KHL at some point, whereas not ALL good young North American players will play in the AHL at some point.

This doesn't speak to the quality of the veteran players at all, which make up the majority of players in these leagues.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I don't think the AHL is slow at all, really. I think the AHL has better athletes overall than the SHL or KHL does.

Most players who go to SHL from other leagues comment on how it's fast and a lot of skating. I don't know how to rate "athletes" but I do know there aren't a ton of bad skaters in the SHL.

 

[lhsgolf19]

Correct, the AHL is still a waste of time for a player coming out of a pro league.

Once again, Seider who was 1 year younger, went from DEL (Pro) to AHL and he improved... you are trying too hard

 

[Frk It]

Most players who go to SHL from other leagues comment on how it's fast and a lot of skating. I don't know how to rate "athletes" but I do know there aren't a ton of bad skaters in the SHL.

As I said in the 2nd part of my post that you chopped off....

Historically I have seen smaller/slower players fare well in the KHL/SHL, that I do not think would have had as much success playing in the AHL.

Part of that could be ice size, but I think part of it is the AHL is more athletic as well.

 

[norrisnick]

Once again, Seider who was 1 year younger, went from DEL (Pro) to AHL and he improved... you are trying too hard

So you're equating an 18yo with 47 DEL games with a 19yo with 80 SHL games. Who is trying too hard?

As I said in the 2nd part of my post that you chopped off....

Historically I have seen smaller/slower players fare well in the KHL/SHL, that I do not think would have had as much success playing in the AHL.

Part of that could be ice size, but I think part of it is the AHL is more athletic as well.

The biggest part is that in many of the Euro leagues the passing is miles better. More moving of the puck rather than chasing it along the walls.

 

[jkutswings]

Correct, the AHL is still a waste of time for a player coming out of a pro league.

I think you're significantly overrating how close Edvinsson is to bring ready for a full NHL season.

You say to throw him into the deep end of the pool and let him finish sorting it out. I say he'd quickly be in over his head and needs at least 10-20 games in the AHL, if not half a season.

We both agree he's going to be a very good top 4 defenseman once he settles in. But the kid has a ways to go to get there, and I think that at least SOME of the progress needs to happen against lesser competition to allow him to properly sort it out.

 

[norrisnick]

I think you're significantly overrating how close Edvinsson is to bring ready for a full NHL season.

You say to throw him into the deep end of the pool and let him finish sorting it out. I say he'd quickly be in over his head and needs at least 10-20 games in the AHL, if not half a season.

We both agree he's going to be a very good top 4 defenseman once he settles in. But the kid has a ways to go to get there, and I think that at least SOME of the progress needs to happen against lesser competition to allow him to properly sort it out.

He's as ready and polished for a full NHL season as half the blueliners we have. The significant overrating is apparently of the quality of our defense behind Mo and sort of Chiarot. Chiarot, on a good team, is a #3 or 4 which is what we're asking Maatta to be, who on a good team would be a #5 or #6. Hronek would be a #5 offensive specialist and Hagg and Lindstrom wouldn't make it.

In what world is 15-20minutes a night on a team not expecting to do much of anything the deep end? You think the NHL is going to suddenly make him fall apart? He doesn't have to carry the blueline like Mo did. Simon would actually have help. And what in his progression thus far would lead you to believe that he wouldn't be able to handle it? Again, he's not some doe-eyed kid coming out of Juniors.

He's going to make mistakes. 100% that is going to happen. But he will learn more making those mistakes playing in the NHL than the AHL. He can look at what Mo is doing, he can look at what Chiarot is doing, he can look at what Maatta is doing. He can get coaching from an actual former NHL defenseman. What is he going to learn watching Lashoff and Kampfer play? What pearls of wisdom is Ben Simon going to impart upon him on the ins and outs of NHL defense?

He's top 4 now (on our team, not all top 4s are created equal). The polish will turn him into a #1 level defenseman.

 

[norrisnick]

I think we've been bad too long and decent is starting to look good. We've got a long long way to be a good team.

 

[Ricelund]

He's as ready and polished for a full NHL season as half the blueliners we have. The significant overrating is apparently of the quality of our defense behind Mo and sort of Chiarot. Chiarot, on a good team, is a #3 or 4 which is what we're asking Maatta to be, who on a good team would be a #5 or #6. Hronek would be a #5 offensive specialist and Hagg and Lindstrom wouldn't make it.

In what world is 15-20minutes a night on a team not expecting to do much of anything the deep end? You think the NHL is going to suddenly make him fall apart? He doesn't have to carry the blueline like Mo did. Simon would actually have help. And what in his progression thus far would lead you to believe that he wouldn't be able to handle it? Again, he's not some doe-eyed kid coming out of Juniors.

He's going to make mistakes. 100% that is going to happen. But he will learn more making those mistakes playing in the NHL than the AHL. He can look at what Mo is doing, he can look at what Chiarot is doing, he can look at what Maatta is doing. He can get coaching from an actual former NHL defenseman. What is he going to learn watching Lashoff and Kampfer play? What pearls of wisdom is Ben Simon going to impart upon him on the ins and outs of NHL defense?

He's top 4 now (on our team, not all top 4s are created equal). The polish will turn him into a #1 level defenseman.

Sorry to appeal to authority here but I'm gong to appeal to authority here.

Lalonde, Yzerman, Draper, Horcoff, Cleary, Lidstrom, Kronwall, et al. know a lot more about player development and Simon Edvinsson, the person, than you do.

Edvinsson will be up when he's ready.

 

[Kingpin794]

Correct, the AHL is still a waste of time for a player coming out of a pro league.

The AHL isn't some rec beer league. I guarantee it's not wasting his time as much as you want to be willfully ignorant about it for the lolz.

The NHL isn't a place to develop certain aspects of your game. You better have them down BEFORE you're up full time. See Ras or Zadina for examples of rushing guys who were "ready" recently.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

I think we've been bad too long and decent is starting to look good. We've got a long long way to be a good team.

Which is why you don't throw your 19 year old prospect who has the ceiling that a guy like Edvinsson has into the deep end on a defense that is still going to be super weak. Hell, you may even be right that he'd be good to go night one. And maybe I'm overcautious with prospects (I wanted Larkin to start the following season in GR after he played in the playoffs there his draft year). I wanted Seider to be in the AHL. I'd always rather be cautious with high level prospects over "sink or swim, bitch".

I think you're WILDLY understating what a young player can learn playing in the AHL and overstating what they can pick up being on an NHL roster when they're adjusting to the speed of the game. I don't think the NHL is a league where you "learn how to play". I think you should be walking in the door ready to f***in go. If you're Lucas Raymond and you're one of the best players on the ice in the 2021 preseason? Go to town, my man. But if you've got any adjustment to make at all to your basic hockey skills, do it out of the limelight. Tell me what would crush a young D's confidence more than coming up early and getting walked by Patrick Kane or worse getting walked by like Jonathan Marchessault or Yanni Gourde.

Sorry to appeal to authority here but I'm gong to appeal to authority here.

Lalonde, Yzerman, Draper, Horcoff, Cleary, Lidstrom, Kronwall, et al. know a lot more about player development and Simon Edvinsson, the person, than you do.

Edvinsson will be up when he's ready.

And when Arthur applies to authority... it always works out for him. *cries in no Ryan Suter 2013*

 

[norrisnick]

Sorry to appeal to authority here but I'm gong to appeal to authority here.

Lalonde, Yzerman, Draper, Horcoff, Cleary, Lidstrom, Kronwall, et al. know a lot more about player development and Simon Edvinsson, the person, than you do.

Edvinsson will be up when he's ready.

Aren't these the same guys that everyone here is saying are making a mistake with someone? Be it Zadina, or Veleno, or Rasmussen, or Erne, or Oesterle, or whoever.

If you are making this appeal you'd better be on board with all of the decisions all of the time.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

He's as ready and polished for a full NHL season as half the blueliners we have. The significant overrating is apparently of the quality of our defense behind Mo and sort of Chiarot. Chiarot, on a good team, is a #3 or 4 which is what we're asking Maatta to be, who on a good team would be a #5 or #6. Hronek would be a #5 offensive specialist and Hagg and Lindstrom wouldn't make it.

In what world is 15-20minutes a night on a team not expecting to do much of anything the deep end? You think the NHL is going to suddenly make him fall apart? He doesn't have to carry the blueline like Mo did. Simon would actually have help. And what in his progression thus far would lead you to believe that he wouldn't be able to handle it? Again, he's not some doe-eyed kid coming out of Juniors.

He's going to make mistakes. 100% that is going to happen. But he will learn more making those mistakes playing in the NHL than the AHL. He can look at what Mo is doing, he can look at what Chiarot is doing, he can look at what Maatta is doing. He can get coaching from an actual former NHL defenseman. What is he going to learn watching Lashoff and Kampfer play? What pearls of wisdom is Ben Simon going to impart upon him on the ins and outs of NHL defense?

He's top 4 now (on our team, not all top 4s are created equal). The polish will turn him into a #1 level defenseman.

How to be an NHL defenseman. Seider learned a shit ton about that from Danny DeKeyser (who everyone basically was on board with calling an AHL defenseman in 21-22. Guys like Edvinsson learn a f***ing lot from the guys that you crap on as being garbage NHL players. Brendan Shanahan had a wicked wrister, right? He refined it by working with a grinder named Doug Sulliman.

You do understand that the basic tenets of NHL defense aren't any different than what they play in the SHL, the AHL, the KHL, etc. Importance of positioning? That's key everywhere. Maintaining your responsibility? Key everywhere. Different places will window-dress it a different way, like the Russian defensemen have routinely been a lot more active offensively (watch Fetisov, Konstantinov, Zubov, whoever) and rotate around, but the idea is the same. And as the Grand Rapids Griffins are aligned with the Wings, Ben Simon is going to run something pretty close to what the big club does.

 

[norrisnick]

Which is why you don't throw your 19 year old prospect who has the ceiling that a guy like Edvinsson has into the deep end on a defense that is still going to be super weak. Hell, you may even be right that he'd be good to go night one. And maybe I'm overcautious with prospects (I wanted Larkin to start the following season in GR after he played in the playoffs there his draft year). I wanted Seider to be in the AHL. I'd always rather be cautious with high level prospects over "sink or swim, bitch".

I think you're WILDLY understating what a young player can learn playing in the AHL and overstating what they can pick up being on an NHL roster when they're adjusting to the speed of the game. I don't think the NHL is a league where you "learn how to play". I think you should be walking in the door ready to f***in go. If you're Lucas Raymond and you're one of the best players on the ice in the 2021 preseason? Go to town, my man. But if you've got any adjustment to make at all to your basic hockey skills, do it out of the limelight. Tell me what would crush a young D's confidence more than coming up early and getting walked by Patrick Kane or worse getting walked by like Jonathan Marchessault or Yanni Gourde.

Seider got the deep end treatment. Simon would be given floaties (named MoMo and Chia).

Edvinsson doesn't strike me as the kind of guy to cry in his pillow over getting walked by Patrick Kane. It'll be lesson learned and move on. At least in the NHL he'll get walked by NHLers. In GR he'd get walked by AHLers. That would hurt more in this scenario right?

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Aren't these the same guys that everyone here is saying are making a mistake with someone? Be it Zadina, or Veleno, or Rasmussen, or Erne, or Oesterle, or whoever.

If you are making this appeal you'd better be on board with all of the decisions all of the time.

Believe it or not, most of us here have no idea what it actually takes to coach and scout. Shocker, I know.

There isn't Maxwell's silver hammer that says "This is the right way to handle this prospect". They do the best with the knowledge they have. And the knowledge they have is that Simon Edvinsson is still making mistakes that are unacceptable for him to make at the NHL level and he'd be better served working on them in the AHL. The NHL is not a teaching league. Guys can definitely develop by immersion, but if you're making routine gaffes? You should be doing those in the AHL when your development can be prioritized and not exploited over and over.

 

[norrisnick]

How to be an NHL defenseman. Seider learned a shit ton about that from Danny DeKeyser (who everyone basically was on board with calling an AHL defenseman in 21-22. Guys like Edvinsson learn a f***ing lot from the guys that you crap on as being garbage NHL players. Brendan Shanahan had a wicked wrister, right? He refined it by working with a grinder named Doug Sulliman.

You do understand that the basic tenets of NHL defense aren't any different than what they play in the SHL, the AHL, the KHL, etc. Importance of positioning? That's key everywhere. Maintaining your responsibility? Key everywhere. Different places will window-dress it a different way, like the Russian defensemen have routinely been a lot more active offensively (watch Fetisov, Konstantinov, Zubov, whoever) and rotate around, but the idea is the same. And as the Grand Rapids Griffins are aligned with the Wings, Ben Simon is going to run something pretty close to what the big club does.

And that's why I want Simon learning from Boughner, Mo, Chia, and Maatta, because like Danny D they've done it.

And you don't think those are things he learned in the SHL? If those basic tenets are used everywhere?

Pace and speed. That's what he's missing.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Seider got the deep end treatment. Simon would be given floaties (named MoMo and Chia).

Edvinsson doesn't strike me as the kind of guy to cry in his pillow over getting walked by Patrick Kane. It'll be lesson learned and move on. At least in the NHL he'll get walked by NHLers. In GR he'd get walked by AHLers. That would hurt more in this scenario right?

The point is he's not likely to get walked by AHLers. He's ready to walk into the AHL and dominate. He's better than the people there

And no, Seider played in the AHL. What are you talking about? He got a whole year in NA due to the COVID year. And honestly, you are messing up if you're going to apply Moritz Seider development ideas to Simon Edvinsson. They're not the same guy. Mo Seider has been nothing but a unicorn since Yzerman said "Mannheim in the DEL". His path to the NHL is not one that you just plug and play anyone else into.

Hell, Edvinsson will probably be up with the team by December and this will all be forgotten... but what worked with Seider is not likely to continue to work for other players. He truly is a special, special player.

And that's why I want Simon learning from Boughner, Mo, Chia, and Maatta, because like Danny D they've done it.

And you don't think those are things he learned in the SHL? If those basic tenets are used everywhere?

Pace and speed. That's what he's missing.

I don't think he's done it in a NA-sized rink. He always had the opportunity to go wide.

 

[norrisnick]

Believe it or not, most of us here have no idea what it actually takes to coach and scout. Shocker, I know.

There isn't Maxwell's silver hammer that says "This is the right way to handle this prospect". They do the best with the knowledge they have. And the knowledge they have is that Simon Edvinsson is still making mistakes that are unacceptable for him to make at the NHL level and he'd be better served working on them in the AHL. The NHL is not a teaching league. Guys can definitely develop by immersion, but if you're making routine gaffes? You should be doing those in the AHL when your development can be prioritized and not exploited over and over.

Then shut the board down if all it will be is 'The Wings did it therefore it's correct.'

 

[norrisnick]

The point is he's not likely to get walked by AHLers. He's ready to walk into the AHL and dominate. He's better than the people there

And no, Seider played in the AHL. What are you talking about? He got a whole year in NA due to the COVID year. And honestly, you are messing up if you're going to apply Moritz Seider development ideas to Simon Edvinsson. They're not the same guy. Mo Seider has been nothing but a unicorn since Yzerman said "Mannheim in the DEL". His path to the NHL is not one that you just plug and play anyone else into.

Hell, Edvinsson will probably be up with the team by December and this will all be forgotten... but what worked with Seider is not likely to continue to work for other players. He truly is a special, special player.

If he's expected to dominate the AHL, that is not the place for him to learn. He has to be pushed, as all players do. Challenge to grow.

Seider's entry to the NHL was 100% sink or swim. You're the youngest guy here and heads and shoulders the best. Good luck!

And if Simon and Seider can't be compared, which I agree with, stop. f***ing. Comparing. 18yo DEL Mo. With 19yo SHL Simon.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Then shut the board down if all it will be is 'The Wings did it therefore it's correct.'

That's not what I'm saying. Hell, it's probably even likely that you're right and they're wrong. Edvinsson may be ready to jump in right now. But generally speaking, the NHL is not a learning league. It's pass/fail. It's why veteran players around the league continue to have jobs. It's why teams like the Edmonton Oilers pre-McDavid flopped hard even though they had undoubtedly more natural talent than most in the league.

You're free to be of the opinion that he's ready to go and he'll pick it up as he goes along. It's just wishful thinking because he looks as good as he does.

What I am saying is that even if you don't agree with how they're doing it, there is logic to starting a guy like Edvinsson in the AHL and "He'll learn and pick up the game as he goes along in the NHL" is not a good argument to keep him up. I don't always agree with what the Wings do. I do attempt to see the logic they're using in making their decisions though. And I get starting Edvinsson in the AHL to dominate and be groomed for running a D pair by himself.

I want more of a reason to keep Edvinsson in the league than "He's better than *insert bottom pairing D men". It's the same thing that I argued about when people lost their minds about Joakim Andersson being called up instead of Anthony Mantha in the Wings last playoff run. I want a guy to be ready to play the role I'm optimally looking at him for... because this team is bad. When you're the 01-02 Wings, you can start Pavel Datsyuk on the 4th line and it'll work fine because you need the absolute best players to make an immediate material impact. The Wings of 22-23 don't need that right this second at the risk of overexposing a kid.