[EDM/NYR] Oilers acquire Ryan Spooner in exchange for Ryan Strome (NYR retains 900k) Part 2

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guymez

The Seldom Seen Kid
Mar 3, 2004
33,045
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TMac is just a poor leader from the looks of it, poor at getting his message across in an effective way.

He didnt seem all that poor at getting his message across in 2016/17. That team was a blown call away from getting to the Conference final.

I think the team just needed a new voice.
Its difficult to know sometimes why teams filter out a coach but it clearly happened here over time.

Sometimes relationships just stop working.
 

oobga

Tier 2 Fan
Aug 1, 2003
23,200
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He didnt seem all that poor at getting his message across in 2016/17. That team was a blown call away from getting to the Conference final.

I think the team just needed a new voice.
Its difficult to know sometimes why teams filter out a coach but it clearly happened here over time.

Sometimes relationships just stop working.

We rode a nice underdog wave that year for sure. A lot of what happened that year was of the unsustainable variety though. Letestu being OV on the PP, Lucic's hacking at pucks on the PP somehow turning into goals all the time. A goalie playing outstanding for 75 games plus playoffs helping mask a lot of defensive issues. Lots of luck with injuries as well, until playoffs of course. The next year was all about trying to do exactly what worked the year before and never being able to come to terms with how the rest of the league adjusted to us and a lot of what happened last year had a huge dose of luck and adjustments needed to be made.

I think a coach being able to realize what is and isn't working and adapt, as well as get across a useful message to all players is a big part of the job. IMO, Todd has shown here and in SJ he is poor at that. He's waiting for his elite guys to do all the magic and create a wave that he and the rest of the team can ride. He probably does need to take some time and reflect on what happened here. It's really his first time not having a roster that could get into the playoffs even if there wasn't a coach on the bench. All those years in Detroit and SJ with stacked rosters, and he comes here to a group where, unless everything is going perfectly like it did in 16/17, you really have to put the effort in and try to squeeze everything you can out of each individual. He's just not good at doing that.
 

MaxR11

Registered User
Mar 28, 2017
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This is an insult to Sam Gagner. ;)

That's a player that was actually wrecked by years with a bad franchise. Spooner has no such excuse. Spooner has himself to blame for the hockey world passing him by.

That said both players have made some pretty good coin and are comfortable, nobody needs to feel sorry for either. heh.

I have turned the corner though from smallish players. I wasn't generally a fan of weak players anyway so it was odd I was on the Gagner bandwagon. Just like the kid and his try and enthusiasm and obvious talent.

Caggs though is what I need him to be right now. Small players have to outwork their size disadvantage. If they are prepared to do that they are useful. Neither Spooner or Gagner are doing that.

There isn't really a market for these players. They are inevitable waiver material. Spooner seemingly has a speed advantage over Gagner but lacks in hard work and tendency to even use it. I think Spooner is tentative. Which is also a death sentence for a small NHL player. You can't have size deficit, and compete deficit.

No way. Gags was a waaaaaay overrated player in his time here. You started to see his actual niche or role as a fringe special team player or an ahl player after the oil stopped spoon feeding him opportunities and ice time. gags was 100% a part of the reason why this team sucked ba**s. you cannot have a fringe player that was as sh8t*y as he was play such a large role as 2nd or 3rd line center. terrible skater, small and weak. his hands were well overrated. i'm sure he looked sick in practice or shootouts but very little of it translated to an actual nhl game.

He got by on his name and lucked out playing with patrick kane in jrs that one explosive year. he SHOULD have been a 4th-6th round pick. i always thought his effort was also way overrated here. towards the last half of his tenure here i thought he was a very lazy coasting player that was really stupid in the defensive zone. every game he would have multpile wtf moments by either totally being unaware he had to pick up his man or wtf effort level as far as backcheck. he was bad bad. he was essentially a great men's league player trying to play in the nhl. in way over his head.

spooner has actual nhl talent but he needs to get his head and confidence right.
 
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guymez

The Seldom Seen Kid
Mar 3, 2004
33,045
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We rode a nice underdog wave that year for sure. A lot of what happened that year was of the unsustainable variety though. Letestu being OV on the PP, Lucic's hacking at pucks on the PP somehow turning into goals all the time. A goalie playing outstanding for 75 games plus playoffs helping mask a lot of defensive issues. Lots of luck with injuries as well, until playoffs of course. The next year was all about trying to do exactly what worked the year before and never being able to come to terms with how the rest of the league adjusted to us and a lot of what happened last year had a huge dose of luck and adjustments needed to be made.

I think a coach being able to realize what is and isn't working and adapt, as well as get across a useful message to all players is a big part of the job. IMO, Todd has shown here and in SJ he is poor at that. He's waiting for his elite guys to do all the magic and create a wave that he and the rest of the team can ride. He probably does need to take some time and reflect on what happened here. It's really his first time not having a roster that could get into the playoffs even if there wasn't a coach on the bench. All those years in Detroit and SJ with stacked rosters, and he comes here to a group where, unless everything is going perfectly like it did in 16/17, you really have to put the effort in and try to squeeze everything you can out of each individual. He's just not good at doing that.

It wasnt just that year though. It started in the latter part of the previous season and ended in 2017/18 when the players decided that they didnt need to work hard to win.
McLellan was never able to re-engage the team and get consistent buy in after that.
It happens all the time...this isnt new. Even McLellan himself mentioned that 4 years is around the time when a coach has to move on.
Thats exactly what happened.

Quite honestly I dont understand this need for people to try and invalidate McLellan as a coach because of what happened here. Doesnt make sense to me.
 

oobga

Tier 2 Fan
Aug 1, 2003
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It wasnt just that year though. It started in the latter part of the previous season and ended in 2017/18 when the players decided that they didnt need to work hard to win.
McLellan was never able to re-engage the team and get consistent buy in after that.
It happens all the time...this isnt new. Even McLellan himself mentioned that 4 years is around the time when a coach has to move on.
Thats exactly what happened.

Quite honestly I dont understand this need for people to try and invalidate McLellan as a coach because of what happened here. Doesnt make sense to me.

I was personally annoyed with McLellan in 15/16, and it never really went away, his constant whining about mistakes, throwing players under the bus which really came to a head around the trade deadline when he said Schultz needs to get the heck off the team. He still sucked in many ways in 16/17 too, and had our guys playing way too scared with leads which finally caught up to us in spectacular fashion in the playoffs. Overplayed Talbot as well IMO, which probably contributed to the playoff run ending, and Talbot struggling the next year.

The idea of players not wanting to try hard enough to win, that's another thing, McLellan was saying that before the season even started, like he was trying to pre-establish an excuse in the media for himself. What was the point of that? How about getting to work on the players and working with them, not sitting back and predicting they are gonna buckle under the pressure. Contrast that with Babcock after the Leafs made the playoffs, he started that year working as hard as he could to lower expectations and take the pressure off, not predicting that his guys might have forgotten how hard everything is.

Good coaches last more than 4 years IMO. But for sure, SJ would have been very smart to get rid of Todd after 3 or 4. They held onto him way too long and wasted the best years of a lot of good players.

Why bash Todd...well, because he wasted a lot of our time here. Why does anyone keep defending him is what I wonder :)
 

Spawn

Something in the water
Feb 20, 2006
43,640
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Edmonton
He didnt seem all that poor at getting his message across in 2016/17. That team was a blown call away from getting to the Conference final.

I think the team just needed a new voice.
Its difficult to know sometimes why teams filter out a coach but it clearly happened here over time.

Sometimes relationships just stop working.

When it comes to head coaches it isn't sometimes. It's every time.

Sooner or later every coach gets fired.

Hitchcock is the perfect example of this. The 3rd winningest coach of all time. Will be a surefire hall of famer and go down as one of the greatest coaches in NHL history. With all that being true, he's been fired 4 times in his NHL career.
 
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guymez

The Seldom Seen Kid
Mar 3, 2004
33,045
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I was personally annoyed with McLellan in 15/16, and it never really went away, his constant whining about mistakes, throwing players under the bus which really came to a head around the trade deadline when he said Schultz needs to get the heck off the team. He still sucked in many ways in 16/17 too, and had our guys playing way too scared with leads which finally caught up to us in spectacular fashion in the playoffs. Overplayed Talbot as well IMO, which probably contributed to the playoff run ending, and Talbot struggling the next year.

The idea of players not wanting to try hard enough to win, that's another thing, McLellan was saying that before the season even started, like he was trying to pre-establish an excuse in the media for himself. What was the point of that? How about getting to work on the players and working with them, not sitting back and predicting they are gonna buckle under the pressure. Contrast that with Babcock after the Leafs made the playoffs, he started that year working as hard as he could to lower expectations and take the pressure off, not predicting that his guys might have forgotten how hard everything is.

Good coaches last more than 4 years IMO. But for sure, SJ would have been very smart to get rid of Todd after 3 or 4. They held onto him way too long and wasted the best years of a lot of good players.

Why bash Todd...well, because he wasted a lot of our time here. Why does anyone keep defending him is what I wonder :)

There is so much thats over the top about the things you are illuminating IMO.
With all due respect I think that your perspective is proof of confirmation bias.
 

guymez

The Seldom Seen Kid
Mar 3, 2004
33,045
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When it comes to head coaches it isn't sometimes. It's every time.

Sooner or later every coach gets fired.

Hitchcock is the perfect example of this. The 3rd winningest coach of all time. Will be a surefire hall of famer and go down as one of the greatest coaches in NHL history. With all that being true, he's been fired 4 times in his NHL career.

Fair enough. Some coaches have a longer lifespan than others though. Coaches like Trotz in Nashville for example.
 

oobga

Tier 2 Fan
Aug 1, 2003
23,200
18,204
There is so much thats over the top about the things you are illuminating IMO.
With all due respect I think that your perspective is proof of confirmation bias.

I have to admit, I think the same about your view of Todd. Many posts trying to pass all blame to the players, things they didn't want to do, messages they refused to listen to. I just choose to go to the simpler explanation. Instead of 30+ guys that passed through refusing to listen, some of which said they were never actually told anything at all while here, I choose to think the messenger was just bad at getting a useful message across.
 

guymez

The Seldom Seen Kid
Mar 3, 2004
33,045
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I have to admit, I think the same about your view of Todd. Many posts trying to pass all blame to the players, things they didn't want to do, messages they refused to listen to. I just choose to go to the simpler explanation. Instead of 30+ guys that passed through refusing to listen, some of which said they were never actually told anything at all while here, I choose to think the messenger was just bad at getting a useful message across.

I have never posted about Mclellan never making mistakes. There doesnt have to be a for or against perspective on this. This isnt an all or nothing dialogue IMO.

My view of Todd is neutral. Hardly evidence of confirmation bias.
 

oobga

Tier 2 Fan
Aug 1, 2003
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I have never posted about Mclellan never making mistakes. There doesnt have to be a for or against perspective on this. This isnt an all or nothing dialogue IMO.

My view of Todd is neutral. Hardly evidence of confirmation bias.

IMO you very much shift blame far more towards the players. What would you say Todd's biggest mistakes were? Aside from how you say he was around too long until the players didn't want to listen to him.
 
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guymez

The Seldom Seen Kid
Mar 3, 2004
33,045
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IMO you very much shift blame far more towards the players. What would you say Todd's biggest mistakes were? Aside from how you say he was around too long until the players didn't want to listen to him.

I think that Todds biggest issue was his stubbornness. I think he would get fixated on doing things a certain way (formations, lines, and roster decisions) to the point of it becoming detrimental.
That used to frustrate me more than anything. I also thought that maybe he wasnt communicating his message in a way that would resonate with the players over the long term. Its impossible for me to know but I think that he seemed to be getting frustrated with the players not executing what he was trying to implement and I often wondered if that was due to his inability to frame things in a way that was easy to understand.

All things that can be corrected if he is able to do a personal inventory and be honest with himself. Again...I have no way of knowing if these things are accurate but that's the impressions I got.


I also think it was time (past due) for him to leave so I welcomed the firing. Where I tend to lean in terms of Todd as a coach is that I think he was quite intelligent and that if he can become less rigid in his thinking then I think he will be a very successful coach moving forward.

When I learned that it was Hitch who was replacing TMac I was elated. I have always really respected Hitch as a coach so I couldn't be happier. :D

Hitch is a master communicator which is exactly what the team needed at this time. I also have to credit Chiaelli (as hard as that is to do) for making this decision at this time.
 

Bryanbryoil

Pray For Ukraine
Sep 13, 2004
86,180
34,568
Pretty sure it was Lucic Spooner Caggiula for the majority of the game and Rieder on the 3rd line with Brodziak, Hitch mentioned it post game as well talking about how the 4th line needed the heavier presence of Lucic and on the 3rd line the speed of Rieder, said both lines played better with that adjustment.

Thanks, I haven't watched the whole Philly game yet.
 

oobga

Tier 2 Fan
Aug 1, 2003
23,200
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I think that Todds biggest issue was his stubbornness. I think he would get fixated on doing things a certain way (formations, lines, and roster decisions) to the point of it becoming detrimental.
That used to frustrate me more than anything. I also thought that maybe he wasnt communicating his message in a way that would resonate with the players over the long term. Its impossible for me to know but I think that he seemed to be getting frustrated with the players not executing what he was trying to implement and I often wondered if that was due to his inability to frame things in a way that was easy to understand.

All things that can be corrected if he is able to do a personal inventory and be honest with himself. Again...I have no way of knowing if these things are accurate but that's the impressions I got.


I also think it was time (past due) for him to leave so I welcomed the firing. Where I tend to lean in terms of Todd as a coach is that I think he was quite intelligent and that if he can become less rigid in his thinking then I think he will be a very successful coach moving forward.

When I learned that it was Hitch who was replacing TMac I was elated. I have always really respected Hitch as a coach so I couldn't be happier. :D

Hitch is a master communicator which is exactly what the team needed at this time. I also have to credit Chiaelli (as hard as that is to do) for making this decision at this time.

Well, I think we agree a lot more than I thought. Obviously I have more gripes, but what you are describing certainly is near the top of the list and something SJ fans warned us about years ago. I do hope he does evolve as a coach more. I think this team was a shock to his system after the Red Wings and SJ Sharks. Those teams were loaded with great players, experienced vets, and management had a pipeline of overripe serviceable players constantly coming in. Very different situation here, loads of kids that needed just basic guidance, few experienced leaders, an absolute need to develop some young players if you want to make best use of the tools made available to you.

Maybe can discuss more in a more appropriate thread though, because @Wewillrise apparently came here super excited about seeing all kinds of Ryan Spooner talk and is super disappointed.
 

guymez

The Seldom Seen Kid
Mar 3, 2004
33,045
12,682
Well, I think we agree a lot more than I thought. Obviously I have more gripes, but what you are describing certainly is near the top of the list and something SJ fans warned us about years ago. I do hope he does evolve as a coach more. I think this team was a shock to his system after the Red Wings and SJ Sharks. Those teams were loaded with great players, experienced vets, and management had a pipeline of overripe serviceable players constantly coming in. Very different situation here, loads of kids that needed just basic guidance, few experienced leaders, an absolute need to develop some young players if you want to make best use of the tools made available to you.

Maybe can discuss more in a more appropriate thread though, because @Wewillrise apparently came here super excited about seeing all kinds of Ryan Spooner talk and is super disappointed.

Actually I think that this is a totally fair and accurate comment.

We actually arrived at a place where we agree.

This rarely happens on here...kudos to you. :handclap:
 

ThreeOfAPerfectPair

Registered User
Oct 26, 2017
7,148
8,951
Edmonton
Nice start to the year for Strome.

vJmDCxw.png
 

TheNumber4

Registered User
Nov 11, 2011
36,200
40,648
LOL. Just what this fanbase needs right now, another reminder of this stinker of a trade. Strome becoming the perfect #2C after we trade him. Just Oilers things.
 

iCanada

Registered User
Feb 6, 2010
18,942
18,363
Edmonton
Ugh. Brutal.

Honesty, I have to eat crow here. I was pretty done with Strome at the time of the trade, felt that he was offensively inept and thought that while Strome was a better player there was some "bring back from the dead" potential in Spooner.

Nope. Stromes a beast, Spooner is completely awful. Derp.
 

TheNumber4

Registered User
Nov 11, 2011
36,200
40,648
I'd like to look at the Stromes linemates during his down year with us, and his linemates now while he's tearing it up. I'd also like to see what support he gets in terms of puck moving on that Rangers D compared to what we were providing him.

You want to find out how Chia and alot of us had it wrong on Strome, let's look at the context of Stromes failure here. At the very least it'll help some Oilers fans the next time we want to run a player out of town. I mean how many times we have to be burned on this to finally figure this out? Look at Petry, look at Schultz, look at most likely Caggiulla, and any other Oiler castoffs that make us look bad for trading them or even worse not even signing them to an ELC only for them to tear it up on another team (but that's more amateur focused than this discussion)
 
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