Ed Belfour vs Curtis Joseph

[BraveCanadian]

Hm ok. I started seriously watching playoff games that didn't involve the new York area teams in 95, and I always thought of belfour as one of the best playoff goalies from what I saw. So I was surprised he had a poor reputation.

It amazes me how much flak Joseph takes for not winning.

Anyone who saw Joseph against the Leafs in 93 or with the Oilers when they upset Dallas one year and Colorado the next would agree that when he was on, he was on.

Against Colorado, the Oilers were down 3 games to 1 and Joseph allowed one goal in the final three games to win the series! Yeah, choker right there!

He basically dragged teams (that had no business winning) farther than they should have. He did the same thing with the Leafs, who while they were certainly a better team than some of Joseph's previous ones, were not very good defensively. Joseph covered up a lot of warts.

More and more I believe that some players get a poor reputation that they can't shake until they win, even though it is a team game.

I find it fascinating that people think Belfour was a choker and blew series until suddenly "he didn't".

You win and you're "clutch".

I'd have a hard time picking between prime Joseph and Belfour.

I think they were close to each other and the biggest difference between them was the quality of their teams.

In the end Belfour would probably get the nod from me and he definitely had the better career, though.

The difference isn't nearly as gigantic as some people are making it out to be.

 

[FrozenJagrt]

I'd say the difference is monumental. Whether you want to go by stats, awards or watching the guys play, Belfour was right up there with the likes of Roy, Hasek and Brodeur for a time. Joseph never came close.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I'd say the difference is monumental. Whether you want to go by stats, awards or watching the guys play, Belfour was right up there with the likes of Roy, Hasek and Brodeur for a time. Joseph never came close.

Judging by your statement I'd say you never saw Cujo at his best.

 

[tony d]

I'm one of Joseph's biggest fans but even I'm going with Belfour here. Belfour had more playoff success than did Joseph.

 

[begbeee]

Eh, Joseph was probably the 5th best of the era behind the big 4. But belfour was the 4th of the big 4

That is how I remember it.

I am also sure, somewhere between 1996-1999, Belfour had a reputation of "great golie, but he doesnt win a cup yet".

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Pre-99, Belfour would have tremendous games or series, but then just blow it at the worst time. He'd get distracted by some player jamming his crease, take a stupid penalty, or just whiff on a floating shot from the blue line. His reputation was very much a "it's not the 99 great saves you make, it's the 1 bad goal you give up" variety. It was actually a well known strategy to "stay on Belfour" because he always seemed to have some sort of brain fart that would turn a series. A lot of that was just bad timing or luck, but not all of it.

This is exactly what I remember his reputation being here in Chicago.

 

[King Woodballs]

have to say the Eagle
he was awesome

 

[kmad]

Eh, Joseph was probably the 5th best of the era behind the big 4. But belfour was the 4th of the big 4

Joseph vs. Kolzig would be an interesting poll.

 

[Prophecy35]

Joseph vs. Kolzig would be an interesting poll.

Honestly, I would lean toward Kolzig. Might not be the "popular" choice, but I find that he is underrated.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Joseph vs. Kolzig would be an interesting poll.

Kolzig might have had the slightly higher peak - best playoff and probably best regular season. But Joseph was more consistently great and great for longer. I'd vote for cujo, but I think it's closer than this one.

 

[FrozenJagrt]

Judging by your statement I'd say you never saw Cujo at his best.

I most certainly did. He was never at their level.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

the problem with the 'when Joseph was on' statemment is that he was rarely on past the first round. The general perception was a guy who was great inthe regular season, even better on the first round, then fell back to earth in the second.. And for once, the statistics actually support the general perception. It's not all cujo's fault - he was often on an underdog team facing a powerhouse in the second round. But I think he takes some of the blame, especially compared to a guy like belfour, who was a major reason why his team did win some of those rounds in the second half or more of his career (twice outplaying Colorado Patrick Roy)

 

[Big Phil]

the problem with the 'when Joseph was on' statemment is that he was rarely on past the first round. The general perception was a guy who was great inthe regular season, even better on the first round, then fell back to earth in the second.. And for once, the statistics actually support the general perception. It's not all cujo's fault - he was often on an underdog team facing a powerhouse in the second round. But I think he takes some of the blame, especially compared to a guy like belfour, who was a major reason why his team did win some of those rounds in the second half or more of his career (twice outplaying Colorado Patrick Roy)

A classic Cujo perception that is actually very accurate. He wasn't a guy that slammed the door shut. He wasn't a Billy Smith or Grant Fuhr. He was, in many ways, a goalie that you set your watch by to come up short.

1995 and 1996 were in no way failures by belfour. He played great, stole some games, but his team was outmatched.

It seems his choker label comes mostly from back to back failures in 93 and 94 really. I guess that's hoe it goes for goalies - if you really blow it in the postseason a couple of times - you can't just play great for several years to shed the choker label - you really have to win it all.

It isn't really a myth though. While this is only a small sample size he had a big discrepancy in overtime games in the playoffs:

Chicago: 8-10
Dallas: 13-7

Those Hawks teams were capable of winning it all for sure and weren't that far behind the Dallas teams in my mind. Belfour had some bad moments at critical overtime games as a Hawk. He was a big cause of the goal in 1993 that eliminated the Hawks. Yes, Brett Hull got in his way but Belfour wandered dangerously out of his crease to play the puck which is what he was famous for. It didn't always pan out.

In 1994 in the opening game against the Leafs he seemed more distracted by Clark "interfering" with him than making the save. Personally I don't think Clark touched him. In 1995 he let in a couple of weak overtime goals to Detroit including the nail in the coffin to give the Wings a 3-0 series lead. To tell you the truth, all three overtime goals by the Wings were weak.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppt4j7rSBL8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7k_bTCUG-Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORtiXFTUHtE&feature=related

The third video has the goal at the end.

So yeah, this wasn't a myth or a false perception, he just couldn't win the big games at that time. Yes, Detroit was the better team and Pittsburgh was the better team in 1992 as well but Belfour could look bad sometimes.

Now he does redeem himself to the point where you could call him a pretty good playoff goalie. The playoff runs from 1998-'01 were all very good and he was a big part of it. It doesn't mean we didn't see the old temper of Belfour (remember when he circumsized Martin Lapointe in the 1998 playoffs with an underhand chop?) but he just seemed to be more calm and collected.

I mean, he's invited to the 1991 Canada Cup. Then after some playoff failures he's shunned from the 1996 World Cup in favour of a very young Brodeur, a past his prime Ranford and Cujo who had never come close to winning anything at that time. Then he is shunned for the 1998 Olympics (prior to the Stars' playoff run) and asked to play in the 2002 Olympics and 20004 World Cup. He was injured and replaced by Theodore in 2004 but he was still initially asked. So it seems the Team Canada brass was uncomfortable asking him to play in high stakes tournaments in the middle of his career.

 

[BraveCanadian]

the problem with the 'when Joseph was on' statemment is that he was rarely on past the first round. The general perception was a guy who was great inthe regular season, even better on the first round, then fell back to earth in the second.. And for once, the statistics actually support the general perception. It's not all cujo's fault - he was often on an underdog team facing a powerhouse in the second round. But I think he takes some of the blame, especially compared to a guy like belfour, who was a major reason why his team did win some of those rounds in the second half or more of his career (twice outplaying Colorado Patrick Roy)

The big problem with this statistical smoke is that many times Cujo was the only reason his team GOT to the second round or farther.. and the farther he took them the more outclassed they got. Even his "good" teams (Toronto) played a style that was counter to almost everyone in the league at the time (more wide open).

http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/2009/01/which-goalie-was-best-in-clutch.html

I know you don't like TCG's crazy Hasek bias (and you know how I feel about statistical smoke ) but have a look at that regarding Curtis Joseph's level of support. The only place that Joseph looks poor compared to the others is in OT but he also had many fewer games in his sample and worse teams throughout the analysis.

The choker label on him is a joke although I know it is Big Phil's favourite fantasy for some reason.

Sure the other guys have to get credit for actually getting it done, but Joseph is taking way too much of the blame for his teams failures as well.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't see anything in that link to counter the perception that cujo was a first round goalie. It doesn't separate first and second rounds, and I'd imagine the majority of his games were inthe first round.

Listen, i don't think cujo was a bad playoff goalie. He put in all time great playoff performances in the first round numerous times before being merely good on the following round(s). Sure thats a lot better than luongo's playoff record to date. But merely good usually isn't good enough to win the deeper you go.

Cujo's two years in Detroit are a microcosm of his career. He was absolutely fantastic when the team around him couldn't score and really kept them in it. Then, when his teammates performed, he didn't.

It's why he won't get into the hall of fame.

 

[Big Phil]

The choker label on him is a joke although I know it is Big Phil's favourite fantasy for some reason.

Sure the other guys have to get credit for actually getting it done, but Joseph is taking way too much of the blame for his teams failures as well.

I wish it was a fantasy, I am a Leafs fan so................

But if I look at it objectively I need to ask you one question. When did Cujo win the "big" game. Sure the first round of the playoffs are nice but it's almost like giving Brian Savage credit because he was a great scorer in October. The games mean more the further you go.

I am including international play as well as the playoffs. Honestly, where does Cujo have a legendary playoff memory? Why does all the evidence point that he couldn't win the big game?

 

[BraveCanadian]

I wish it was a fantasy, I am a Leafs fan so................

But if I look at it objectively I need to ask you one question. When did Cujo win the "big" game. Sure the first round of the playoffs are nice but it's almost like giving Brian Savage credit because he was a great scorer in October. The games mean more the further you go.

I am including international play as well as the playoffs. Honestly, where does Cujo have a legendary playoff memory? Why does all the evidence point that he couldn't win the big game?

I'm a Leafs fan too. And it is still fantasy.

When did he ever have a team that was capable of winning the "big game"?


You and TDMM both keep saying he was a great first round goaltender but really.. are you honestly saying some intangible thing went click in his head and he was worse in the second round?

We're not talking about game seven and overtime of the Cup finals.. we're talking about the second round. Is it really a different game between round 1 and round 2?

Do you really think he suddenly got so much worse in the second round or is it more likely that he often dragged a team that had no business winning into a second or third round where they were even more outmatched?

Looking at his longer playoff runs:

In 93 no way in hell is he a choker he was amazing in that series.

In 97 & 98 in Edmonton they pulled off huge first round upsets, in large part due to Joseph, and came up against another powerhouse in the second round. But oh, his stats weren't as good losing to Colorado and Dallas at the height of their power as they were when winning the previous series in an upset. Big surprise.

In 99 with the Leafs he got lit up by Buffalo, but as anyone knows who watched the Leafs during that time, they were not a very strong defensive team. Buffalo was AND they had absolute peak Hasek. This was probably one of his weakest series but he was definitely not the deciding factor. Hasek just might have been though.

In 2000 the Leafs lost to the eventual winners (Devils). The Leafs put in absolutely putrid efforts against them. In the elimination game the Leafs had SIX shots. But yeah, Joseph didn't win the "big game".

In 01 the Leafs went to 7 against the Devils who returned to the Finals and just about won back to back cups. Two of those games went to OT. One of the games the Leafs won, Joseph made 32 saves for a shutout while Brodeur lost the game having faced 17 shots. In the elimination game this time, Brodeur faced a whopping 16 shots. Totals for the series: Faced by Joseph 206, by Brodeur 148. And Joseph faced the tougher shots by quite a large margin in my opinion. The fact it went to 7 with a difference in shot totals like that speaks for itself.

In 02 the Leafs went to the final four and lost in 6 against Carolina in a series where the Leafs scored six goals in 6 games. The two wins they did have were a shutout by Joseph and a 2-1 win where the Leafs were outshot 32-24.

In 03 with the only team he ever had that was a real contender, the Wings stank it up and got swept in 4 games where they scored a grand total of 6 goals and lost twice in OT.

I'm not arguing that Joseph is better than Belfour, I would pick Belfour over him too. But this choker label is complete fantasy. His team support was quite easily the lowest out of the top 5 goalies during his era. I mean after all, Hasek didn't win with Buffalo now did he?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I mean, he's invited to the 1991 Canada Cup. Then after some playoff failures he's shunned from the 1996 World Cup in favour of a very young Brodeur, a past his prime Ranford and Cujo who had never come close to winning anything at that time. Then he is shunned for the 1998 Olympics (prior to the Stars' playoff run) and asked to play in the 2002 Olympics and 20004 World Cup. He was injured and replaced by Theodore in 2004 but he was still initially asked. So it seems the Team Canada brass was uncomfortable asking him to play in high stakes tournaments in the middle of his career.

Could have been because they knew he could be a big pain in the butt if he didn't play.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I

You and TDMM both keep saying he was a great first round goaltender but really.. are you honestly saying some intangible thing went click in his head and he was worse in the second round?

We're not talking about game seven and overtime of the Cup finals.. we're talking about the second round. Is it really a different game between round 1 and round 2?

Yes, the pressure rises as the playoffs go around. Goaltender is by far the most mental position on the ice, so if Cujo himself felt more pressure (especially when the media started calling him a first round goalie), then yes, it is different.

 

[pooleboy]

Cujo is and will always be my favourite goalie.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Could have been because they knew he could be a big pain in the butt if he didn't play.

Good point. Belfour (like Barrasso) was famous for being an total jackass to his backups, running several of them out of town when he felt too challenged. Was it Belfour or Barrasso who threw the chair at a backup? (Was it a chair?)

Cujo was definitely the "better teammate" for whatever that is worth.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Yes, the pressure rises as the playoffs go around. Goaltender is by far the most mental position on the ice, so if Cujo himself felt more pressure (especially when the media started calling him a first round goalie), then yes, it is different.

I don't remember the media ever calling him a first round goalie.

Anyways pretty much every time he went deep into the playoffs his team was outplayed by a large margin in their defeats or they had pulled off major upsets to get to the point they made it to.

 

[overpass]

I don't remember the media ever calling him a first round goalie.

Anyways pretty much every time he went deep into the playoffs his team was outplayed by a large margin in their defeats or they had pulled off major upsets to get to the point they made it to.

I don't remember him being called a first round goalie either. He was considered a very good goaltender who hadn't won a Cup yet.

The "first round goalie" thing is just backwards projection, looking at the outcomes.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I don't remember him being called a first round goalie either. He was considered a very good goaltender who hadn't won a Cup yet.

The "first round goalie" thing is just backwards projection, looking at the outcomes.

Yeah, I think the clutch and choke labels are often similarly a "looking at the outcomes" phenomena.

It is amazing how they stick, though.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It's absolutely not backwards projection. It was certainly his reputation in the media I watched in the late 90s.

Edit: I distinctly remember the 'toronto homers' were specifically laughed at for thinking cujo could get it done. He definitely had the rep by the time he started the first game of the 2002 olympics, it was widely thought to be a pat Quinn homer thing along the lines of Bobby Clarke making lindros captain in 98. I don't remember if it was just a ny area thing (so possibly homer influenced then) or a US / ESPN thing

Anyway, your point might actually be correct in a round about way. If he was god in Toronto until he left, then it's not like the local media was getting on his case. Now imagine if he had the exact same record in Montreal.