Ed Belfour vs Curtis Joseph

[overpass]

It's absolutely not backwards projection. It was certainly his reputation in the media I watched in the late 90s.

I should say that I do remember him having a bit of a rep as a first round goalie. But not in the negative, Big Phil-esqe, "you just know he's going to choke in the second round and no team could ever go all the way with him" kind of way. More of a recognition tha he had some great first round performances and never had the horses to go farther.

II don't think he started to get a bad rap as a big game goalie until the 2002 Olympics. People are projecting that back when they talk about him not being clutch.

 

[BraveCanadian]

1st round:

Average Cujo team, 91 points; Average opponent, 92 points

2nd round:
Average Cujo team, 93 points; Average opponent, 101 points

The average team that Cujo lost to in the second round had 107 points. In his entire career, he only once lost to a weaker opponent in the second round, and that was despite a .928 save percentage in the series, because his Red Wings could not score on Miikka Kiprusoff (back-to-back 1-0 losses in games 5 and 6).

http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/2007/05/cujo-choker.html

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Average second round opponents are better than average first round opponents? In other news, Patrick Roy was pretty good in the playoffs.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Average second round opponents are better than average first round opponents? In other news, Patrick Roy was pretty good in the playoffs.

Yeah, a few times he was also extremely lucky in his matchups. Average point total for Roy's 2nd round opponents during his Cup winning seasons (presumably where he gets his "clutch" rep): 89

To put it into perspective (and this is keeping in mind I believe Roy to be the best playoff goalie ever):

Roy

Habs in 1986 were a 87 point team. They had a dream run in the playoffs against opponents that upset the favourites, facing teams with 86 points 1st round, 84 points 2nd round, 78 (!) 3rd round and 89 in the Finals.

1993 Habs were a 102 point team and also enjoyed a lottery win as far as matchups go: 104 for the Nords in the first round then 86 2nd, 87 3rd, 88 points for LA in the Finals.

That is twice in two cup wins (2/8) facing a higher ranked opponent (for regular season points). For a combined total of 4 points (nothing!).

96 Avs had 104 points facing 79 first round, 94 second round, 131 third round (the real finals against Detroit), 92 Finals.

01 Avs had 118 points facing 90, 92, 103, 111 in the Finals against Jersey.

That is one time in two cup wins (1/8) with the Avs facing a higher ranked opponent. (A big single gap though at 27)

Cujo

1993 Blues had 85 points. Upset 106 point team in the first round (21 point gap!) and lost to the 99 point Leaf team (14 point gap) in the second (Cujo was awesome).

1997 Oilers had 81 points. Upset 104 point team in the first round (23 point gap!) and lost to a 107 point team (26 points) in the second.

1998 Oilers had 80 points. Upset a 95 point team in the first round (15) and lost to a 109 point team (29!) in the second.

1999 Leafs had 97 points. Beat 93 point team, beat 90 point team, lost to 91 point team (6 point advantage). Losing to Buffalo (the 91 point team) is one of Cujo's weaker efforts but the Leafs were not too hot that series and this was vintage Hasek they were facing as well.

2000 Leafs had 100 points. Beat 95 point team, lost to 103 point Devils team. Leafs were embarrassing in this series and managed only 6 shots in the elimination game as I noted above. Devils win the cup.

2001 Leafs had 90 points. Beat a 109 point team first round (19 point gap), lost to 111 point team in the second (21 point gap). Devils go to the finals again. Leafs outshot 206 to 148 in the series.

2002 Leafs had 100 points. Beat 96, and 94 point teams, lost to 91 point Carolina team (9 point advantage). Leafs only score 6 goals in the 6 games.

2003 Red Wings as I mentioned above were swept by Giggy's insanity and Detroit manages 6 goals in the 4 games.


Now looking at all the longer playoff runs of Cujo's career. How can anyone say he was a choker? He was playing teams that vastly outclassed his own or his team was not supporting him. With the exception of 99 against Buffalo where both he and his team were fairly mediocre.. I don't see it.

Just about every year he did anything in the playoffs, Cujo faced a gap in opposition in one round that is almost as big as Roy faced in multiple cup runs!

 

[BraveCanadian]

Found this from our last go around about Joseph and his clutch play:

The notion that Curtis Joseph consistently let his teams down in pressure situations in the playoffs is absolutely and demonstrably false. In 22 career playoff games with his team facing elimination, Curtis Joseph had a 2.12 GAA and a .926 save percentage. His record in those games? 10-12. And that's the story of Joseph's playoff career right there, he played well but his team didn't score. In those 12 losses Joseph's teams scored 1.2 goals per 60 minutes of play.

Joseph also had 4 shutouts in those elimination games, plus a 1-0 OT loss against Calgary. That means that with his team's back against the wall in a do-or-die scenario and the entire season hanging in the balance, nearly one-quarter of the time the other team didn't score a single goal in regulation. What a pathetic choker.

- TCG

 

[Big Phil]

Good point. Belfour (like Barrasso) was famous for being an total jackass to his backups, running several of them out of town when he felt too challenged. Was it Belfour or Barrasso who threw the chair at a backup? (Was it a chair?)

Cujo was definitely the "better teammate" for whatever that is worth.

I could be wrong, but Belfour had a really heated argument apparently with Jeff Hackett in 1996-'97. Maybe a chair was thrown, who knows? Belfour did headlock a hotel security guard once so it wasn't beyond him

I'm a Leafs fan too. And it is still fantasy.

When did he ever have a team that was capable of winning the "big game"?

1996 World Cup, 2002 Olympics, 1999 and 2002 playoffs. The less you talk about Joseph in the 1996 World Cup the better. He had opportunity, and if you want to talk about a team that ridiculously outplayed their opponent it was Canada in Game 3 that made the US look like peewees up until the third period when Joseph got some pressure. When the chips were down he allowed two goals in 43 seconds, then they got an empty netter and then he looked uninterested when they got the fifth goal with 30 seconds left.

He had everything laid out for him in the 2002 Olympics as well. No Patrick Roy, and at this time believe it or not there were still concerns of Brodeur being a clutch goalie. I know Canada as a whole didn't play well against Sweden but Joseph just looked awful as well. He's out, Brodeur is in and Canada wins gold. In hindsight that was the right decision.

You and TDMM both keep saying he was a great first round goaltender but really.. are you honestly saying some intangible thing went click in his head and he was worse in the second round?

I'm not a doctor, but when the pressure came on he often was a goalie who had off days. He had some awful Game 7s in his career (1993, 2001). Honestly, even though St. Louis lost 6-0 in 1993 he let in some weak, weak goals in that crucial game.

In 99 with the Leafs he got lit up by Buffalo, but as anyone knows who watched the Leafs during that time, they were not a very strong defensive team. Buffalo was AND they had absolute peak Hasek. This was probably one of his weakest series but he was definitely not the deciding factor. Hasek just might have been though.

I don't remember Buffalo being much of a defensive team at that time. They lived and died for how Hasek played. Only Hasek could carry them, no one else did. Cujo did lose the first two games of the series to Roloson, not Hasek also. That was his big chance, there is no way Toronto should ever have lost that, and Joseph did not look good.

I'm not arguing that Joseph is better than Belfour, I would pick Belfour over him too. But this choker label is complete fantasy. His team support was quite easily the lowest out of the top 5 goalies during his era. I mean after all, Hasek didn't win with Buffalo now did he?

Hasek did everything humanly possible to win with Buffalo. Those teams were pretty much draft lottery teams without him. Toronto was still a playoff team sans Joseph. He did make them better yes, but he didn't have some scrubs in front of him. Hasek took his team to the final in 1999 and almost nearly did in 1998 as well. He was well on his way to winning the Conn Smythe either of those years. Never did Joseph ever carry a team on his back like Hasek did. We don't know even how Roy would have fared with those Buffalo teams (although witnessing what he did with Montreal's Cup years show that he probably would have still done well).

Joseph wasn't a big game goalie. Was he a choker? It's a cruel way of putting it and I'll give him credit for being a great 1st round goalie, but he doesn't stack up with the legends at all since you can never find elite hockey he played past the first round.

 

[Master_Of_Districts]

Average second round opponents are better than average first round opponents? In other news, Patrick Roy was pretty good in the playoffs.

The point was that the teams that Cujo played for tended to be overmatched from the 2nd round forward.

Not every goalie gets to play for a team with a +600 shot differential that never takes penalties.

 

[BraveCanadian]

1996 World Cup, 2002 Olympics, 1999 and 2002 playoffs. The less you talk about Joseph in the 1996 World Cup the better. He had opportunity, and if you want to talk about a team that ridiculously outplayed their opponent it was Canada in Game 3 that made the US look like peewees up until the third period when Joseph got some pressure. When the chips were down he allowed two goals in 43 seconds, then they got an empty netter and then he looked uninterested when they got the fifth goal with 30 seconds left.

96 World Cup is more about Richter than about Joseph. Again, we're looking backwards and making projections. All I can remember about the 96 World Cup is "we should have won but Richter got peppered and stopped everything!", not "Joseph sucked".

99 Playoffs - Buffalo allowed 60 less goals against than the Leafs and 175 goals on the season.. they weren't a defensive team? Sure they relied on Hasek, he's possibly the best goalie of all time. I agree that this is was hardly Joseph's shining moment, though, but he wasn't alone in that.

02 Olympics. One bad game and no opportunity after that.

02 Playoffs. Go and try to find me a series where a team won a 6 game series where they scored 6 goals. I'll be interested to see them.

He had everything laid out for him in the 2002 Olympics as well. No Patrick Roy, and at this time believe it or not there were still concerns of Brodeur being a clutch goalie. I know Canada as a whole didn't play well against Sweden but Joseph just looked awful as well. He's out, Brodeur is in and Canada wins gold. In hindsight that was the right decision.

Same thing happened this past Olympics. Now Brodeur is a choker too? What about at the 06 Olympics, is he a choker from that one?

I guess now Luongo is clutch and Brodeur can't win the big game.

That is the fallacy of this "clutch" and "choker" label. The 06 Olympics had Brodeur and Sakic especially who everyone regards as "clutch". Why didn't they win?

Why did Roy win only 4 cups in 17 seasons? Why couldn't he close the door in the big game?

Why was Hasek unable to win until he was behind a stacked team and not even in his prime?

Why could Fuhr only win with a stacked Oilers team?

I'm not a doctor, but when the pressure came on he often was a goalie who had off days. He had some awful Game 7s in his career (1993, 2001). Honestly, even though St. Louis lost 6-0 in 1993 he let in some weak, weak goals in that crucial game.

Blaming a goalie for the loss when the team is shutout is a joke. The fact they got to game 7 at all is because of Joseph.

I don't remember Buffalo being much of a defensive team at that time. They lived and died for how Hasek played. Only Hasek could carry them, no one else did. Cujo did lose the first two games of the series to Roloson, not Hasek also. That was his big chance, there is no way Toronto should ever have lost that, and Joseph did not look good.

That Buffalo team allowed only 175 goals in the regular season and Dwayne Roloson was .909 and Biron was .917. It wasn't just Hasek, although obviously they relied on him hugely.

Toronto should not have lost but they had a habit of fading when the going got tough during the Sundin era. Sundin himself never raised his game.

One constant during Joseph's time in Toronto is absolutely feeble attempts by his team in their later rounds. 6 shots against Jersey one year in an elimination game, 16 shots another.. 6 goals in 6 games in 02 against Carolina.

Hasek did everything humanly possible to win with Buffalo. Those teams were pretty much draft lottery teams without him. Toronto was still a playoff team sans Joseph. He did make them better yes, but he didn't have some scrubs in front of him. Hasek took his team to the final in 1999 and almost nearly did in 1998 as well. He was well on his way to winning the Conn Smythe either of those years. Never did Joseph ever carry a team on his back like Hasek did. We don't know even how Roy would have fared with those Buffalo teams (although witnessing what he did with Montreal's Cup years show that he probably would have still done well).

Backward projection.

Hasek couldn't win the big game with the Sabres. Strangely he could with a team that was capable, though.

Joseph wasn't a big game goalie. Was he a choker? It's a cruel way of putting it and I'll give him credit for being a great 1st round goalie, but he doesn't stack up with the legends at all since you can never find elite hockey he played past the first round.

When was he ever in a big game where his team actually performed well?

96? Richter admittedly stole that show but at what other time was Joseph ever in a position to win where his teammates didn't play lousy?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

If brodeur had only been selected the starter of the 2010 olympics because his coach was the Olympic coach, and if he was actually in his prime, then it would have been comparable to Joseph in 2002, absolutely.

In 2006, Canada lost because they couldn't score. I never even heard the hockey media say a bad thing about brodeur, and they are quick to blame goalies for losses.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Since you asked, cujo was certainly in position to win in 2003. Obviously, giguere was lights out, but cujo could have been better against an anemic ducks offense.

Anyway, this is starting to go too far from cujo vs belfour.

 

[ColdSteel2]

I could be wrong, but Belfour had a really heated argument apparently with Jeff Hackett in 1996-'97. Maybe a chair was thrown, who knows?

Belfour told him he was just a backup and always would be and never to put his equipment on before Belfour. Never put his equipment by Belfour, etc. Hackett was my favorite goalie of all time and always will be. Hackett went on to have one of the greatest seasons in goaltending history and better than any season Belfour ever had.

 

[IggyFan12]

Could it be argued that Cujo was the best goalie in Oilers history. If you place Cujo on the Oilers teams of the 80s do they still win 5 cups? If Fuhr was on the Oilers teams of the late 90s do they win a round maybe make it further?? Living in Alberta I have always thought of Cujo as an Oiler. I'm curious where other people think of Cujo as being? Is he a Blue, Leaf, maybe even a Flame (JJK!!).

I think of Belfour as a Star no question. If I was making an all time team for Dallas/North Stars Belfour would be my starter no doubt.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Anyway, this is starting to go too far from cujo vs belfour.

Agreed, it is very interesting to me though because it basically confirms to me that in a lot of cases "clutch" and "choker" are complete nonsense.

They are incredibly dependent on team factors.

 

[IggyFan12]

Agreed, it is very interesting to me though because it basically confirms to me that in a lot of cases "clutch" and "choker" are complete nonsense.

They are incredibly dependent on team factors.

Perfect example is Stevie Y.

The difference of Belfour to Cujo is pretty close. Place Cujo on the Stars in 99 and with that team I see them still winning the Cup.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Put 1999 Patrick Roy on the 1999 stars, and they wouldn't have won...

 

[stranger34]

Curtis Joseph = Mike Mussina

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Could it be argued that Cujo was the best goalie in Oilers history. If you place Cujo on the Oilers teams of the 80s do they still win 5 cups? If Fuhr was on the Oilers teams of the late 90s do they win a round maybe make it further?? Living in Alberta I have always thought of Cujo as an Oiler. I'm curious where other people think of Cujo as being? Is he a Blue, Leaf, maybe even a Flame (JJK!!).

I think of Belfour as a Star no question. If I was making an all time team for Dallas/North Stars Belfour would be my starter no doubt.

Grant fuhr was a hart finalist as an oiler once...

 

[canucks4ever]

I think its a myth that cujo always played for mediocre teams. Those St. Louis Blues teams had Hull, Shanahan, Janney, Jeff Brown. In 1995, they added even more depth. Replace cujo with either roy or hasek and they would prolly win cups.

 

[JackSlater]

Agreed, it is very interesting to me though because it basically confirms to me that in a lot of cases "clutch" and "choker" are complete nonsense.

They are incredibly dependent on team factors.

I agree that people often base "clutchness" on factors that are heavily team related (although I do find it funny that you are essentially saying that you used your own points to confirm your opinion). People often base who the best playoff performers were do to factors that are mostly team dependent.

 

[Big Phil]

96 World Cup is more about Richter than about Joseph. Again, we're looking backwards and making projections. All I can remember about the 96 World Cup is "we should have won but Richter got peppered and stopped everything!", not "Joseph sucked".

No Joseph didn't "suck" and Richter did play out of his mind but it was still a poor display of goaltending in the last three minutes of a game. Things like that just too often happened to Joseph it seemed.

99 Playoffs - Buffalo allowed 60 less goals against than the Leafs and 175 goals on the season.. they weren't a defensive team? Sure they relied on Hasek, he's possibly the best goalie of all time. I agree that this is was hardly Joseph's shining moment, though, but he wasn't alone in that.

No, they weren't a strong defensive team. This team relied on Hasek more than any other team arguably has relied on a goalie. Their GAA was low because they had a great goalie

02 Olympics. One bad game and no opportunity after that.

Fair enough, but it's just another example of a time when Joseph didn't win something and you certainly can't give him credit for 2002 either

02 Playoffs. Go and try to find me a series where a team won a 6 game series where they scored 6 goals. I'll be interested to see them.

To be fair, on paper it looks like John Vanbiesbrouck had a great playoffs in 1999. He had a 1.46 GAA. On paper that is remarkable. But, he allowed several weak untimely goals. A clutch save in the overtime games for Mr. Joseph against Carolina and the series is a different story

Same thing happened this past Olympics. Now Brodeur is a choker too? What about at the 06 Olympics, is he a choker from that one?

It is fair to say that in 2010 he was not the same goalie anymore. But this is a Cup winner in 1995, 2000, 2003 and an Olympic winner in 2002 and World Cup winner in 2004. Not to mention he's the winningest goalie of all-time in the regular season. Brodeur has made up more than enough ground on his failures.

I guess now Luongo is clutch and Brodeur can't win the big game.

Our eyes tell us that Canada won gold in 2010 in spite of Luongo. Luongo played alright but had some shaky moments which is what he has always had in his playoff career

That is the fallacy of this "clutch" and "choker" label. The 06 Olympics had Brodeur and Sakic especially who everyone regards as "clutch". Why didn't they win?

Why did Roy win only 4 cups in 17 seasons? Why couldn't he close the door in the big game?

Why was Hasek unable to win until he was behind a stacked team and not even in his prime?

Sakic? Come on, you know better than to question him. One of the best playoff performers of all-time, a Conn Smythe winner, captained two Cup championships, scored 8 playoff overtime goals. Roy closed the door for many, many big games in his career. Hasek took a team of scrubs one game away from the Cup.

Toronto should not have lost but they had a habit of fading when the going got tough during the Sundin era. Sundin himself never raised his game.

Which is a legitimate complaint about the Sundin era as well. Leaf fans like myself have long lamented Sundin as a guy who needed to raise his game higher.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Sakic? Come on, you know better than to question him. One of the best playoff performers of all-time, a Conn Smythe winner, captained two Cup championships, scored 8 playoff overtime goals. Roy closed the door for many, many big games in his career. Hasek took a team of scrubs one game away from the Cup.

I already said that I consider Roy the best playoff goalie I've seen.

The point being that if being clutch was some thing that can be turned on and become the wall like you claim Fuhr and Roy and Hasek and Smith etc could do.. why didn't Roy win more? Why didn't Hasek?

Why didn't Sakic step up and score a goal to tie that game against Russia in 06?

Immediately the team argument comes out to defend the "clutch" players.. "they did all they could".. Hasek had "scrubs". Well the team argument cuts both ways even though it appears people here don't think so.

Joseph playing on 80 point teams upsetting 100+ point teams or playing on higher standing teams (Tor/Det) that collapsed in front of him in embarrassing fashion had "good" teams and "it is his fault for choking".

I think we can see the correlation between team results and clutch play pretty clearly. Joseph did drop the ball in the 02 Olympics by having one bad game. He was suspect in 99 against Buffalo. But Joseph's teams failed (or were outclassed) a lot more than he did personally is all I am trying to say. Even Roy has his statue of liberty.. talk about blowing a series.. but hey no one is perfect.

I think labeling him a choker is very unfair.

Anyways I can't make any point I haven't already and the mods apparently disapprove of me in this thread so that's that.

 

[seventieslord]

Beezer's 1.46 gaa against the leafs in 1996 was phenomenal. Yes, I remember the goals against him. Not all of them were great. But you do realize that if he had stopped a normal percentage of his shots..... like, 91... then the weak goals wouldn't have been crucial.. don't you?

 

[habsjunkie2*]

I'm not sure how there is even a discussion about this. Belfour by a couple miles.

 

[Big Phil]

Beezer's 1.46 gaa against the leafs in 1996 was phenomenal. Yes, I remember the goals against him. Not all of them were great. But you do realize that if he had stopped a normal percentage of his shots..... like, 91... then the weak goals wouldn't have been crucial.. don't you?

I'm just saying sometimes looking at stats is only half the battle. The context and timing of the goals allowed are also important. And Beezer had the knack of allowing very untimely soft goals that series. Kind of like how Ron Hextall went in his career (other than 1987).

Put it this way, what was a better display of goaltending: Beezer in the 1999 playoffs or Fuhr in the 1987 Canada Cup? If you look solely at the numbers then you would assume Beezer. But based on the style of play in the 1987 Canada Cup there was going to be a lot of wide open play and tons of goals. Fuhr stopped the puck at the critical times where as Beezer played in a low scoring series in 1999 and allowed soft goals at bad times. I know what display of goaltending I think was better.

I already said that I consider Roy the best playoff goalie I've seen.

The point being that if being clutch was some thing that can be turned on and become the wall like you claim Fuhr and Roy and Hasek and Smith etc could do.. why didn't Roy win more? Why didn't Hasek?

Why didn't Sakic step up and score a goal to tie that game against Russia in 06?

Immediately the team argument comes out to defend the "clutch" players.. "they did all they could".. Hasek had "scrubs". Well the team argument cuts both ways even though it appears people here don't think so.

Joseph playing on 80 point teams upsetting 100+ point teams or playing on higher standing teams (Tor/Det) that collapsed in front of him in embarrassing fashion had "good" teams and "it is his fault for choking".

I think we can see the correlation between team results and clutch play pretty clearly. Joseph did drop the ball in the 02 Olympics by having one bad game. He was suspect in 99 against Buffalo. But Joseph's teams failed (or were outclassed) a lot more than he did personally is all I am trying to say. Even Roy has his statue of liberty.. talk about blowing a series.. but hey no one is perfect.

I think labeling him a choker is very unfair.

Anyways I can't make any point I haven't already and the mods apparently disapprove of me in this thread so that's that.

I don't think being clutch is something you can just "turn on" but it is something some players take time to evolve into being. The jury is out on Luongo and as it stands the monkey is still on his back. If he wins a Cup it doesn't necessarily displace his other bad outings but it softens the blow and it shows he could at least win it all.

As for Sakic the guy did enough in his career to make up for lost time in the 2006 Olympics and by not "tying" the game. If anything watching the game he was the only Canadian forward I was proud of. I'm not sure how many more Cups you wanted Roy to win, he won 4 in a 21-30 team NHL. He has 50% more playoff wins than anyone else in NHL history. Smith, Fuhr etc. proved their worth just by their clutch goaltending. Smith made some crucial, crucial saves in the middle of that dynasty to keep it alive. Anyone who wonders the value of Smith's worth to the Islanders should watch some overtime games.

The difference with these guys is that they had their bad games too. Sakic wasn't perfect every year either. But they have so many great moments under pressure that it offsets any low point in their careers. Joseph doesn't have that moment in his career that softens the blow of some of his bad outings. He doesn't even have the international resume to help him. You can't even say "Well he didn't win a Cup but he won the Olympic gold". Or the World Cup. He had opportunities and not any less than other goalies get.

Perhaps if he didn't change teams and leave them in the dust on three occasions he'd have stayed around long enough for their success.

 

[asdf]

The difference with these guys is that they had their bad games too. Sakic wasn't perfect every year either. But they have so many great moments under pressure that it offsets any low point in their careers. Joseph doesn't have that moment in his career that softens the blow of some of his bad outings. He doesn't even have the international resume to help him. You can't even say "Well he didn't win a Cup but he won the Olympic gold". Or the World Cup. He had opportunities and not any less than other goalies get.

Perhaps if he didn't change teams and leave them in the dust on three occasions he'd have stayed around long enough for their success.

Which three teams did he leave in the dust? Surely you can't mean the Leafs. Joseph wanted to stay but Quinn didn't want keep him. Then when Joseph left Quinn went around telling anyone who would listen how they were prepared to make him highest paid goalie in NHL history if he didn't bail on them. Plus, besides the Wings, it's not like any of the teams he was on had any success after he left. The only one that comes close is the Blues, around 5-6 years after he was gone.

I'm not sure what opportunities you're referring to because I can't remember him being on a truly legit contending team. And please don't say the Wings (who he joined when he was 35), who weren't anywhere near as strong as they were in 2002.

Since this is a Belfour-Joseph thread, both goalies played on the Leafs. The difference is that for Joseph, they were amongst the best teams he played on in his career, but for Belfour they were amongst the worst.

As has been mentioned, Belfour had the same stigma of not being able to win the big games, except that he had more opportunities to learn from those failures and overcome them.

BraveCanadian has done a great job articulating everything I wanted to say.