Ed Belfour vs Curtis Joseph

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by IggyFan12, Mar 22, 2011.

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  1. IggyFan12

    IggyFan12 Registered User

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    I always considered these 2 in the upper class of goaltenders since 1990. They are not Roy, Brodeur or Hasek good but they are still some of the best goalies to ever play the position. If you had to choose one goalie to have on your team for the season and playoffs who would you choose? Lets review the works of Ed Belfour first:

    963GP 484W 320L 125T 14OTL 76SO 2.50G.A.A .906SV%
    Awards:
    1 Calder Trophy
    4 Jennings Trophies
    2 Vezinas
    2 First Team All Stars
    1 2nd All Star team
    Won Stanley Cup in 99
    Lost in Stanley Cup Finals in 91/92 and 99/00

    He also has 88 Wins in the Playoffs with a sparkling 2.17 G.A.A and .920 SV%

    Curtis Joseph

    943GP 454W 352L 90T/OTL 51SO 2.79 G.A.A .906 SV%

    Awards:
    None

    Cup Finals:
    None

    Cujo has 63 Playoff wins and a 2.45G.A.A and .917 SV%

    At first glance (and ignoring awards) the numbers are very similar. However I think Belfour had a better Career and Peak than Cujo. Cujo couldn't raise his game enough to win the Stanley Cup or make the finals even once while Belfour won the Cup and made the finals 3 times. Along the way to his only Stanley Cup Belfour beat Roy, and Hasek head to head. I think Belfour is a top 5 goalie since 1980 (Didn't want to go to far back in history cause I didnt see many players before 1980 play and it wouldnt be a fair comparision) looking at his stats and awards. He was a product of his system (especially with Dallas) but he was a major reason why that team had the success they did and Dallas haven't been back to the finals since he left. Cujo is a very good goalie but not great. Would I consider Cujo in the hall of fame? Maybe. Would I consider Belfour ..In a heart beat yes.
     
  2. RabbinsDuck

    RabbinsDuck Registered User

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    Belfour is definitely better than Cujo, IMO.
    both these guys would have been interesting to see how they ended up if they had found their way onto a team like the Red Wings or Devils early(ier) in their careers.
     
  3. canucks4ever

    canucks4ever Registered User

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    Belfour had his fair share of 'off-years', but he was an all star on 3 different teams, hard to say he was a product of a system.
     
  4. Stephen

    Stephen Registered User

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    Problem with Cujo was that he was on underdog type teams for most of his career, whereas Belfour was on some powerhouses in Chicago and Dallas. Belfour was the better goalie, in any event, though Cujo could look invincible sometimes. His early round playoff heroics were unsustainable because he'd wear himself out the way he played.
     
  5. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Belfour was much better. I think belfour was closer to brodeur than to cujo.
     
  6. FrozenJagrt

    FrozenJagrt Registered User

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    Belfour was, briefly, the best goalie in the world. The only thing Joseph was ever the best at was slapping an organization in the face by saying they weren't good enough to win when they were arguably the closest they'd been in almost 40 years. Oh, that and losing. He was damn good at losing.
     
  7. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Eh, Joseph was probably the 5th best of the era behind the big 4. But belfour was the 4th of the big 4
     
  8. John Flyers Fan

    John Flyers Fan Registered User

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    This.

    Belfour was a bit of a whack job, but he was a big time goalie.

    He's certainly one of the 4 Hall of Fame goalies of his era, and a clear step above the CuJo's, Richter's, and Vernon's of his era.
     
  9. FrozenJagrt

    FrozenJagrt Registered User

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    True that. I always felt so comfortable when he was in net, the guy was a true gamer who showed up when it mattered (no disrespect to Cujo in THAT regard, he took his game to another level in the playoffs). As for Belfour being a bit of a headcase, I think that's what made him so endearing. Yeah he was a drunk with attitude problems, but he'll always be the Beloved Billion Dollar Belfour to me.
     
  10. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    Cujo unfortunately was not a big game goalie. He just wasn't. Somehow, someway along the line he would wear himself out and he could never carry his team even to the final. The closest he came was in 1999 and 2002 and he lost to some pretty weak offenses. Carolina killed Toronto in overtime. Had Joseph remained clutch in the overtime periods then we might have a different story.

    Belfour was the better goalie. Now, I want to clarify one thing. Prior to 1999, Belfour had an albatross over him. He wasn't the goalie thought to carry a team to a Cup. Great in the regular season but a choker in the playoffs. This lasted until he won in 1999. I know it's hard to believe but that was his reputation. This is why he probably wasn't invited to the 1996 World Cup and 1998 Olympics. There are too many moments in Belfour's early playoff career where you expected more. A good modern comparison is Luongo. He might just yet win a Cup, but for now he's that goalie that can't carry a team. Belfour was that pre-1999.

    Now that changed of course. He won the Cup and still played very well leading his team to the final again in 2000. That lessened the blow of his playoff reputation for sure but it still isn't as polished as some other greats. Needless to say he's a Hall of Famer. I don't think Joseph is.
     
  11. IggyFan12

    IggyFan12 Registered User

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    Cujo was in one of the greatest ever goalie battles in the 04 playoffs where in the final 2 games and 7 periods he gave up only 2 goals yet lost both games 1-0. I think this was his best shot to win the Cup.
     
  12. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Belfour was great in the playoffs pretty much the entire time in Dallas.
     
  13. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Help me understand belfour's playoff rep before 1999. He had already been to the finals once with Chicago, getting blown out by the Mario Lemieux penguins.

    Now, I don't think there should be any question belfour was a winner. He has 88 career playoff wins - tied with Billy smith for 4th all time behind only Roy, brodeur, and fuhr.

    Joseph has 63 playoff wins, by comparison.
     
  14. Blades of Glory

    Blades of Glory Troll Captain

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    Belfour was absolutely spectacular during three consecutive postseasons directly before his 1999 Cup run. What he did in 1995, somehow lifting a mediocre Blackhawks team into the Conference Finals, is often overlooked. I often wonder why he had a "questionable" playoff rep prior to 1999, but that is probably mostly due to being the easy scapegoat.

    His back-to-back Cup Final runs were something else. In the 99 and 00 playoffs combined, he went 30-16 with a .931%, 1.76 GAA, and 7 shutouts.
     
  15. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Yes, I remember now - belfour did absolutely everything he could against a far superior Detroit team, holding Chicago in it... Was it two years in a row he barely lost to Detroit while on Chicago?
     
  16. IggyFan12

    IggyFan12 Registered User

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    Also in 1996 he missed game 2 against Colorado or else that series could have been different as well.
     
  17. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    A "mediocre" Blackhawks team?

    1995 Blackhawks: Nicholls, Suter, Chelios, Amonte, Roenick, Joe Murphy and an old Savard. Not mediocre.

    My thought is this: In 1991 he did not play well in the postseason. He did help take the Hawks to the final in 1992 but was awful in the final. In 1993 he got swept and allowed 13 goals in 4 games. In 1994 he lost first round and played okay. In 1995 he took Chicago to the semis. They lost a string of overtime games that series to Detroit none worse than Game 3 when Konstantinov took a shot from the blueline on a harmless rush that fooled him. In 1996 he ended up on the wrong end of overtime again with Colorado.

    From 1991-'96 he had good teams who were capable of winning. Belfour wasn't that nail in the coffin guy until he hit Dallas. 1998, 1999 and 2000 were three really good playoff runs with one championship. It saved him. And it took the burn off from his past failures.

    Chicago was right in the same neighbourhood in the early to mid 1990s as those Dallas Stars teams who actually won. The common denominator is Belfour and he just didn't perform as well earlier in his career.
     
  18. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    1995 and 1996 were in no way failures by belfour. He played great, stole some games, but his team was outmatched.

    It seems his choker label comes mostly from back to back failures in 93 and 94 really. I guess that's hoe it goes for goalies - if you really blow it in the postseason a couple of times - you can't just play great for several years to shed the choker label - you really have to win it all.
     
  19. Epsilon

    Epsilon #basta

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    Really? This isn't even close. I can't think of a single reason to even consider Joseph.
     
  20. FrozenJagrt

    FrozenJagrt Registered User

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    I was about to suggest his mask, but Belfour had some really slick masks too
     
  21. vadim sharifijanov

    vadim sharifijanov ugh

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    what kind of question is this? you could just compare their tenures in toronto, where belfour replaced cujo, to know that belfour is by a significant distance the better goalie. and that is not even getting into the vezinas in chicago and the playoff success in dallas.

    cujo had pretty good consistency, but i don't see what takes him beyond the level of beezer, richter, kolzig, at al. and anywhere near the top four.
     
  22. overg

    overg Registered User

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    Pre-99, Belfour would have tremendous games or series, but then just blow it at the worst time. He'd get distracted by some player jamming his crease, take a stupid penalty, or just whiff on a floating shot from the blue line. His reputation was very much a "it's not the 99 great saves you make, it's the 1 bad goal you give up" variety. It was actually a well known strategy to "stay on Belfour" because he always seemed to have some sort of brain fart that would turn a series. A lot of that was just bad timing or luck, but not all of it.
     
  23. TheDevilMadeMe

    TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    Hm ok. I started seriously watching playoff games that didn't involve the new York area teams in 95, and I always thought of belfour as one of the best playoff goalies from what I saw. So I was surprised he had a poor reputation.
     
  24. Psycho Papa Joe

    Psycho Papa Joe Porkchop Hoser

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    Belfour quite easily. I wasn't a fan of his early in his career, but he made me a believer in the Dallas Cup runs. He plain and simple, outplayed Hasek and Roy head to head those years.

    I always liked Joseph, and think he gets a bit of a bad rap, but he's in the next tier of Goalies with the likes of Richter, Vachon, Vernon and Barasso. Belfour was elite, Joseph was not.
     
  25. Buck Aki Berg

    Buck Aki Berg Done with this place

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    As a Sens fan, I hate 'em both :laugh:
     

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