Post-Game Talk: ECQF 4 | FLYERS (2) vs. Canadiens (0) | Tuesday, Aug. 18, 2020 | Flyers lead series 3-1

[Appleyard]

Does anyone honestly believe Hagg is a better individual *player* than Hagg?

I think it's simply a matter of those coaches believing that their rosters, as constructed at the time they were making the decisions, were better with Hagg than Ghost.

That's a completely different argument.

It's a bit like the Lightning/Jackets. The Bolts probably have 8 of the 10 best players in the series.

But over two playoff seasons - including one when Tampa set a modern day record for most dominant team - we are seeing that the difference between the two teams head-to-head is very marginal.

Tbh Tampa have been better in 6/9 games they have played in those two years.

Vasi lost two single handedly last year where they were better. And Tampa had been the better team 4x in a row before today. Where they have been awful.

 

[deadhead]

There's an EA mentality toward teams, a team is the highest some total of talent, i.e. EA ratings.
Chemistry and fit are ignored.

Ghost is a more talented player than Hagg, generally he's a better player than Hagg, but Hagg is more physical, a much better shot blocker, and is as good a scorer IN the O-zone as Ghost at ES (getting the puck to the O-zone is a different matter).

Since Ghost, until proven otherwise (given his track record the last two seasons), is a second tier PP defenseman, his PP prowness is probably no more valuable than Hagg's PK contribution.

So the difference between them right now is small enough that usage may depend on match-ups and strategy.

Next season, if Ghost shows himself completely recovered from his leg ailments and rediscovers his mojo, this may become a horribly lopsided comparison. No one would take Hagg over 2017-18 Ghost for any reason. But that's next season.

 

[Striiker]

Does anyone honestly believe Hagg is a better individual *player* than Hagg?

I think it's simply a matter of those coaches believing that their rosters, as constructed at the time they were making the decisions, were better with Hagg than Ghost.

That's a completely different argument.

It's a bit like the Lightning/Jackets. The Bolts probably have 8 of the 10 best players in the series.

But over two playoff seasons - including one when Tampa set a modern day record for most dominant team - we are seeing that the difference between the two teams head-to-head is very marginal.

And they're obviously wrong.

Plus, if a coach is building a roster where a Hagg-type is a better fit than a Ghost-type, then they think they're in the wrong decade. Ghost is better in all three zones.

It's not even like Hagg has played well. He's getting absolutely destroyed. He has literally nothing to do with the fact that we won the last two games. In fact, Ghost was easily playing better than Niskanen and Braun, then Hagg comes in and immediately takes over as our worst performing D.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

When I have a toothache, I go to a dentist, not some guy on the Internet. When my roof leaks, I call a roofer, not some guy on the Internet. If there’s blue smoke coming out of the tailpipe of my truck, I call a mechanic, not some guy on the Internet. See what I’m saying?

Don’t think of it as “authority”, man. Think of it as knowledge, wisdom, and experience.

You don’t do any research yourself before you hire someone to have at least some baseline of the person’s competency/honesty at their trade?

 

[Beef Invictus]

There's an EA mentality toward teams, a team is the highest some total of talent, i.e. EA ratings.
Chemistry and fit are ignored.

Ghost is a more talented player than Hagg, generally he's a better player than Hagg, but Hagg is more physical, a much better shot blocker, and is as good a scorer IN the O-zone as Ghost at ES (getting the puck to the O-zone is a different matter).

Since Ghost, until proven otherwise (given his track record the last two seasons), is a second tier PP defenseman, his PP prowness is probably no more valuable than Hagg's PK contribution.

So the difference between them right now is small enough that usage may depend on match-ups and strategy.

Next season, if Ghost shows himself completely recovered from his leg ailments and rediscovers his mojo, this may become a horribly lopsided comparison. No one would take Hagg over 2017-18 Ghost for any reason. But that's next season.

Man, every part of this is just wrong.

 

[Striiker]

Man, every part of this is just wrong.

Not wrong. It's lying.

 

[flyersnorth]

This OT game is not good. Hope it ends quickly.

Our game is already pushed, isn't it?

 

[Rebels57]

Game over! What a finish by Point.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

Jim Hughson said it best: the Flyers start the game with the Thompson line, their 4th line. But, really, they play like a 2nd or 3rd line.

wait, what?

 

[Starat327]

Jesus, this thread became a cess pool.

 

[Striiker]

Jesus, this thread became a cess pool.

board*

 

[Starat327]

board*

I had a dentist once who messed up my root canal. I have an HVAC contractor at work who had to come out and fix our HVAC 3 times before he got it right.

Pretending like people who do something for a profession are infallible and dont make mistakes is the worst logic and argument ive ever seen on this board. And thats saying something.

 

[Starat327]

Man, every part of this is just wrong.

Isnt is astounding how people trot out their opinions as facts? Imagine the self-importance you have to feel to pretend you know every facet of every detail that has happened with this team.

 

[Adtar02]

Man, every part of this is just wrong.

I stop reading his post at the first lie. Longest I made ever is one paragraph

 

[Striiker]

I had a dentist once who messed up my root canal. I have an HVAC contractor at work who had to come out and fix our HVAC 3 times before he got it right.

Pretending like people who do something for a profession are infallible and dont make mistakes is the worst logic and argument ive ever seen on this board. And thats saying something.

But he's 15-2 in his last 17 root canals...

 

[Magua]

You don’t do any research yourself before you hire someone to have at least some baseline of the person’s competency/honesty at their trade?

We are Mona Lisa Vito when it comes to hockey.

 

[dragonoffrost]

But he's 15-2 in his last 17 root canals...

I guess you never make a mistake or I would hope if you did you were treated the way you treat those who do.

 

[LegionOfDoom91]

We are Mona Lisa Vito when it comes to hockey.

You could do roof work for the guy & just sit up there a few hours doing really nothing & get paid for it (it happens) with that type of attitude.

 

[Starat327]

But he's 15-2 in his last 17 root canals...

He only did damage around the perimeter.

 

[bennysflyers16]

We are Mona Lisa Vito when it comes to hockey.

Or Posi Traction, only 2 cars had that, the corvette and you guessed it !!!

Such a great scene

 

[Striiker]

He only did damage around the perimeter.

I love how that was the attempted narrative and the heat map killed it immediately.

 

[Magua]

You could do roof work for the guy & just sit up there a few hours doing really nothing & get paid for it (it happens) with that type of attitude.

Besides the point about not all professionals being equal in their professionalism, it’s absurd to compare hockey fandom to any of those areas. I didn’t go to dental school; I’ve never worked on a roof in my life; I can’t do much with cars besides drive them.

But you can be damned sure I’ve spent an unhealthy portion of my life playing hockey, watching hockey, looking at hockey data, theorizing hockey asset management. I am not — we are not — hockey novices. Most of us (presumably) just didn’t get our faces punched in at the professional level or were the son of some hockey big wig.

 

[achdumeingute]

I love how that was the attempted narrative and the heat map killed it immediately.

does the heat map represent what period of the game the shots were attempted there.? I don't think it does. It's purely shots attempted from the relative spot in the game?

Can you filter out a particularly egregious period of time?

 

[deadhead]

Man, every part of this is just wrong.

Bull.

Ghost hasn't done anything special for two years now. Even on the PP.
He showed a little more this summer, but not enough to think he's the Ghost of 2017-18.
And if he's a JAG at this point, then why get your panties in a bunch over Ghost v Hagg?

It's like complaining about the difference between Rolling Rock and Budweiser.

I'd give Ghost one more shot next year to increase his trade value before the ED, but at this point I'm more interested in Zamula and York.
Nor do I have any attachment to Hagg, other than a cheap #7 D-man.
However, if we're going to roll out York/Zamula as our 3LHD, I'd like to obtain another big RHD with some skills.

I do think size matters, not to an extreme, but you'd like to roll out at least one full sized player on each D-pair.

 

[Beef Invictus]

Bull.

Ghost hasn't done anything special for two years now. Even on the PP.
He showed a little more this summer, but not enough to think he's the Ghost of 2017-18.
And if he's a JAG at this point, then why get your panties in a bunch over Ghost v Hagg?

It's like complaining about the difference between Rolling Rock and Budweiser.

I'd give Ghost one more shot next year to increase his trade value before the ED, but at this point I'm more interested in Zamula and York.
Nor do I have any attachment to Hagg, other than a cheap #7 D-man.
However, if we're going to roll out York/Zamula as our 3LHD, I'd like to obtain another big RHD with some skills.

I do think size matters, not to an extreme, but you'd like to roll out at least one full sized player on each D-pair.

Ghost as a JAG is a huge improvement over Hagg. JAG is his floor, very good offensive dman is his ceiling. Hagg's ceiling on any given night is only having 1 goal go in per night on his blown coverages and clears. Everything matters, all inefficiencies add up, thus playing Ghost over Hagg matters.

Especially when the gulf between the two is huge. They aren't comparable. Ghost is an average-to-good NHL dman and Hagg is AHL caliber.