ECHL to 30 Teams?

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Here's a good alignment for a 32-team ECHL:

East
Atlantic
Adirondack
Brampton
Greenville
Norfolk
Reading
South Carolina

Northeast
Burlington (VT)*
Maine
Manchester*
Newfoundland
Worcester

Southeast
Atlanta
Augusta (GA)*
Florida
Jacksonville
Orlando

West
Central
Cincinnati
Fort Wayne
Indy
Kalamazoo
Toledo
Wheeling

Pacific
Abbotsford*
Fresno*
Idaho
Reno*
Utah

Plains
Allen
Kansas City
Rapid City
Tulsa
Wichita

Burlington, VT nope, unless you want to deal with UVM, Z...... Vermont is like Manchester was pre-2000 before ASM/AEG ran the franchise;

I also don't see 32 teams..... Abbotsford is a no in any league, Reno's ship has sailed........ Fresno and Augusta, Georgia were done already and collapsed in season.......doubtful the ECHL has any interest in the expansion fee to even broach a potential return....

 

[hurricanesfan123]

It Sounds like whoever she is listening to is well aware of true issues the monarchs faced at the end.Unlike The narrative being pushed by some when the echl monarchs folded that Manchester was an AHL market and the echl was beneath them.

2nd last attendance in echl and it will be interesting to see if they would be put back in the league

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Burlington (VT)*

It's a tiny market with less than 50,000 people and college hockey at UVM is king. It's the same reason pro hockey isn't and will never be tried in Orono, ME and everywhere in Minnesota. The QMJHL doesn't even try for Burlington because they know it won't work. The ECHL does not fit this market in any way.

Augusta (GA)*

No functioning ice plant at James Brown Arena. That's a seven figure investment just to make the facility capable of making ice. James Brown Arena also barely met SPHL arena standards because of poor upkeep, they would certainly fail ECHL standards. That's another seven figure investment just to make the facility meet minimum standards. The market hasn't had any interest in hosting hockey in seven years since their SPHL team folded (because of the ice plant failing). They couldn't support their ECHL team before that to the point where the team folded mid-season. In order to just get the facility ready it would require around $10,000,000. Hockey hasn't returned for that reason and certainly won't in the future.

Abbotsford*

Would have to be the Canucks affiliate since it is in the middle of Canucksland. The Flames showed that very well. If so, then it's a maybe.

Fresno*

https://www.fresnobee.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/marek-warszawski/article200316374.html.
Doesn't work with the current setup. It is $1,500 per day to keep the ice up and going. It was enough that Bill Foley had the opportunity and passed on putting a Vegas AHL team there. Zero chance any tries an ECHL team there.

Reno*

reno pro hockey - Google Search
Pro hockey coming to Reno? Don't expect it anytime soon

Not possible for a laundry list of reasons.

 

[hurricanesfan123]

Don't follow the ECHL as much as some of you so I could be wrong
Reno and manchester are in pretty similar situations with trying to get a team
Abbotsford I could see coming to the echl but travel times could hurt them

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Don't follow the ECHL as much as some of you so I could be wrong
Reno and manchester are in pretty similar situations with trying to get a team
Abbotsford I could see coming to the echl but travel times could hurt them

Two entirely different situations with Reno and Manchester. The three usual measures for hockey feasibility to an ownership group are 1.) Arena, 2.) City and 3.) Market. Reno has purported market interest, but not the facility or city aspects. The arena needs $5 million worth of repairs just to be ready to host a team and much political opposition to a hockey project. Manchester is the exact opposite. They have a ready arena in a ready city, but they are in a market with doubtful interest in a ECHL team given how they were burned by the AHL Monarchs and then the ECHL Monarchs.

Abbotsford would need to be bringing in 5,000-6,000 per night in order to even have a chance given the travel. When the closest travel partner by far is a 10 hour ride by bus to Idaho, the team would be up against the wall before a game is even played. The ECHL Victoria Salmon Kings were eventually supplanted by the WHL Victoria Royals because of the travel costs associated with the league, and that was back when there were still ECHL teams on the West Coast.

 

[210]

2nd last attendance in echl and it will be interesting to see if they would be put back in the league

They would be. And you can bet everything you own they won't be called "Monarchs". That name is poison up there in the business community.

 

[hurricanesfan123]

They would be. And you can bet everything you own they won't be called "Monarchs". That name is poison up there in the business community.

Trois-Rivières and Manchester I could see in ECHL 2021-2022 season but unlike Trois-Rivières, Manchester would have to find an owner and an interested NHL affiliate. Trois-Rivières looks like Dean Macdonald and the Canadians got a set plan ready for 2021-22 season. This next year we might be seeing some ECHL expansion. Plus, Manchester has yet to announce any real plan

 

[royals119]

No functioning ice plant at James Brown Arena. That's a seven figure investment just to make the facility capable of making ice.

Not so true any more. Wheeling had an ice plant failure last fall and put in a new system in just a few weeks for about $300,000. New Ice System ‘Saved The Season’ for Wheeling Nailers

James Brown Arena also barely met SPHL arena standards because of poor upkeep, they would certainly fail ECHL standards. That's another seven figure investment just to make the facility meet minimum standards. The market hasn't had any interest in hosting hockey in seven years since their SPHL team folded (because of the ice plant failing). They couldn't support their ECHL team before that to the point where the team folded mid-season. In order to just get the facility ready it would require around $10,000,000. Hockey hasn't returned for that reason and certainly won't in the future.

The ECHL team folded because the economy tanked, particularly in the automotive sector, and the team owners were car dealers. A more realistic number to get the building up and running is probably $1.5 million, with additional investments over time.
I'm not saying it is going to happen, but if there were some city leaders who wanted it, and they got the building fixed, and a new owner with solid financial backing was around, it isn't impossible. Not likely, certainly not in the next year or two considering what is happening, but not impossible.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

Not so true any more. Wheeling had an ice plant failure last fall and put in a new system in just a few weeks for about $300,000. New Ice System ‘Saved The Season’ for Wheeling Nailers

Wheeling did it with a modular icing system on a quick budget and quick time frame. It's only supposed to last for a few years, but the company that installed said it "could last up to twenty" which is not likely considering it is a temporary product they're trying to advertise as permanent. The cost for installing a full ice machine was in the $1 mil - $2 mil range. New Ice System ‘Saved The Season’ for Wheeling Nailers

The ECHL team folded because the economy tanked, particularly in the automotive sector, and the team owners were car dealers. A more realistic number to get the building up and running is probably $1.5 million, with additional investments over time.
I'm not saying it is going to happen, but if there were some city leaders who wanted it, and they got the building fixed, and a new owner with solid financial backing was around, it isn't impossible. Not likely, certainly not in the next year or two considering what is happening, but not impossible.

ECHL Augusta Lynx had six seasons of attendance at or less than 3,000. I'm not saying it wasn't the economy tanking that killed the team, but they weren't going to last much longer regardless of what happened economically. They folded mid-season, that is not a sign of one singular event rather accumulation.

 

[JMCx4]

... you can bet everything you own they won't be called "Monarchs". ...

Don't you mean: "you can bet everything you USED TO own BEFORE FEB. 20TH"?

 

[Cyclones Rock]

I'm of the mind that 32-32-32 set up will never happen. There are too many ECHL teams right now which aren't on solid footing, a lack of decent potential markets for new teams, and the NHL doesn't seem inclined to financially support the ECHL. The NHL still benefits by the ECHLs existence and if that were threatened perhaps they'd be willing to support the ECHL directly-maybe so far as ownership (partial or full) of ECHL teams. They could subsidize the teams without owning them as another option.

What I can see is a 32-32-16 set up where each ECHL team is double affiliated. If there were no ECHL, the NHL would feel the pinch (where do you send bad ELCs and excess AHL contracts?) so perhaps there could be a much more formal affiliation in this case.

 

[Centrum Hockey]

2nd last attendance in echl and it will be interesting to see if they would be put back in the league

I don't believe any market is a lost cause. It just takes good management and ownership to turn a market around. Look at the difference between Springfield MA under Charlie and Sara Pompea and current T-birds group.

 

[hurricanesfan123]

I don't believe any market is a lost cause. It just takes good management and ownership to turn a market around. Look at the difference between Springfield MA under Charlie and Sara Pompea and current T-birds group.

I would like to think but still having a former team with 2,000 in a 10,000 arena is pretty eye-catching to people in the future who want to own a team

 

[210]

I would like to think but still having a former team with 2,000 in a 10,000 arena is pretty eye-catching to people in the future who want to own a team

Attendance was a symptom of the problem in Manchester, not the actual problem. A strong, committed local owner shouldn't have any issues getting that market back in track.

 

[hurricanesfan123]

Attendance was a symptom of the problem in Manchester, not the actual problem. A strong, committed local owner shouldn't have any issues getting that market back in track.

how did manchester do so poorly transitioning and Adirondack do it well

 

[210]

how did manchester do so poorly transitioning and Adirondack do it well

The problems started long before the switch to the ECHL, but the Monarchs pretending it was just "business as usual" with the league switch certainly didn't help matters.

The Kings run Monarchs alienated a huge part of their fan base with the attitude of "of course you're going to buy tickets, what else is there to do here" mentality. By the end of the AHL Monarchs even the die-hards had had enough and were beginning to bad-mouth the organization. The ECHL franchise was all but on life support when PPI bought it, and they did absolutely nothing to try to save it.

 

[hurricanesfan123]

The problems started long before the switch to the ECHL, but the Monarchs pretending it was just "business as usual" with the league switch certainly didn't help matters.

The Kings run Monarchs alienated a huge part of their fan base with the attitude of "of course you're going to buy tickets, what else is there to do here" mentality. By the end of the AHL Monarchs even the die-hards had had enough and were beginning to bad-mouth the organization. The ECHL franchise was all but on life support when PPI bought it, and they did absolutely nothing to try to save it.

What a shame no wonder AEG got out of there

 

[Centrum Hockey]

Trois-Rivières and Manchester I could see in ECHL 2021-2022 season but unlike Trois-Rivières, Manchester would have to find an owner and an interested NHL affiliate. Trois-Rivières looks like Dean Macdonald and the Canadians got a set plan ready for 2021-22 season. This next year we might be seeing some ECHL expansion. Plus, Manchester has yet to announce any real plan

Boston/Providence would likely be Manchester's affiliate/local sponsor but the team would obliviously be locally owned and operated.

 

[hurricanesfan123]

Boston/Providence would likely be Manchester's affiliate/local sponsor but the team would obliviously be locally owned and operated.

I have seen people say maybe the devils ahl or senators ahl could relocate to manchester
also it would be interesting if Albany got echl although it would be unlikely

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

I have seen people say maybe the devils ahl or senators ahl could relocate to manchester
also it would be interesting if Albany got echl although it would be unlikely

Ottawa relocated their AHL team from Binghamton, where they had been happy with decent prospect call-up times since 2002, in order to put them in Belleville. They were aware it was a small market that wouldn't draw huge crowds. But it was the perfect geographic location for the prospects. Zero chance they relocate to Manchester.

New Jersey took their place in Binghamton and that lease has another two years left. While the market hasn't been extremely happy with the team, the Devils certainly have. The city also realizes that they got lucky in the AHL shuffle and managed to grab a team when they lost theirs, they won't let them leave so easily and the Devils won't relocate their team nearly 3 hours further away in a market where there is heavy doubts about their ability to support a team. Zero chance they relocate to Manchester.

Times Union Center in Albany has publicly been happy without hockey and haven't courted any hockey team since they lost the Devils. They host enough shows, conventions, concerts, basketball and other sporting events to not need hockey. It's likely a loser if they add it because not only will they likely not bring in a lot of money, but it takes away 30some dates from other events that make the arena money.

 

[Centrum Hockey]

Ottawa relocated their AHL team from Binghamton, where they had been happy with decent prospect call-up times since 2002, in order to put them in Belleville. They were aware it was a small market that wouldn't draw huge crowds. But it was the perfect geographic location for the prospects. Zero chance they relocate to Manchester.

New Jersey took their place in Binghamton and that lease has another two years left. While the market hasn't been extremely happy with the team, the Devils certainly have. The city also realizes that they got lucky in the AHL shuffle and managed to grab a team when they lost theirs, they won't let them leave so easily and the Devils won't relocate their team nearly 3 hours further away in a market where there is heavy doubts about their ability to support a team. Zero chance they relocate to Manchester.

Times Union Center in Albany has publicly been happy without hockey and haven't courted any hockey team since they lost the Devils. They host enough shows, conventions, concerts, basketball and other sporting events to not need hockey. It's likely a loser if they add it because not only will they likely not bring in a lot of money, but it takes away 30some dates from other events that make the arena money.

Major work has to be done to the XL Center eventually. Albany probably would only make a bid if the wolf pack ever need a place to play for a couple seasons even then there will probably be more appealing options.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

You're more likely to see a 20 team ECHL before you see a 30 team ECHL given the economy right now.

 

[JMCx4]

Why do I feel dirty whenever I give a Like to @CrazyEddie20 ?

 

[hurricanesfan123]

You're more likely to see a 20 team ECHL before you see a 30 team ECHL given the economy right now.

yea I have to agree it certainly isn't helping some teams and doesn't help future expansion markets

 

[sabremike]

yea I have to agree it certainly isn't helping some teams and doesn't help future expansion markets

I think the long-term thing that is going to need to happen is for both the AHL and ECHL to be split up into different regional leagues like Minor League Baseball to where you have teams all in a general geographical area to minimize travel costs (this is also what happened with arena football, but in that case I don't think that sport is going to survive because there is virtually no interest in it anywhere).