ECHL to 30 Teams?

[210]

A Manchester ECHL expansion team would ideally have a bruins affiliation. And there is no shot that Boston would go for the same type of developmental system that dean wants.

Plus he may not want his teams in the same division..

 

[JMCx4]

Plus he may not want his teams in the same division.

That might've even been a stipulation in the BOG's agreement to allow Mr. MacDonald multiple teams.

 

[Centrum Hockey]

Plus he may not want his teams in the same division..

That might've even been a stipulation in the BOG's agreement to allow Mr. MacDonald multiple teams.

In theory there must be a way to separate Trois-Rivières and Newfoundland in a six division format.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Except it wouldn't be that, and not even close. KC is 550ish miles from Ft Worth, and there are three teams between those two cities. You could easily schedule three weekends worth of road games for Ft Worth and then have them in their own beds by Monday morning each weekend. And it's not like they're playing extra road games because of the rodeo, so they'd be paying expenses they'd already have to be paying anyway.

Go more than 300 miles and you're required by the CBA to get hotel rooms. Sure, they aren't playing extra road games, but they've got to practice somewhere, and it ain't going to be at the home rink. Some of the I-10 teams used to have to start road trips two or three days early, going to Atlanta or Birmingham to practice because there was a load-in happening in their rink. It's not as easy as just going away for three nights. There may be more rinks than ever before in Texas, but ice time at the home rink is included in the team's lease, ice time at a practice rink costs $1,500 an hour.

 

[210]

Go more than 300 miles and you're required by the CBA to get hotel rooms. Sure, they aren't playing extra road games, but they've got to practice somewhere, and it ain't going to be at the home rink. Some of the I-10 teams used to have to start road trips two or three days early, going to Atlanta or Birmingham to practice because there was a load-in happening in their rink. It's not as easy as just going away for three nights. There may be more rinks than ever before in Texas, but ice time at the home rink is included in the team's lease, ice time at a practice rink costs $1,500 an hour.

In a new building they're likely not going to be able to practice much in it with all the events that would be scheduled between their games, so they'd already need to have a plan in place for that. And your $1500 an hour for ice is either a massive exaggeration or the rinks around the Worcester area are incredibly cheap to rent. Plus they'd only need these facilities on Tuesday, Wednesday, and possibly Thursday depending on when they left for their trip. They'd be at the road building on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, and Monday would be an off day.

 

[mk80]

Ft. Worth’s Dickies Arena got a temporary ice plant installed, one used for ice shows and not pro hockey.

I thought I had a real ice plant put in. Either way I'd probably put Fort Worth at a stretch right now until there is more evidence of an owner in place.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

In a new building they're likely not going to be able to practice much in it with all the events that would be scheduled between their games, so they'd already need to have a plan in place for that. And your $1500 an hour for ice is either a massive exaggeration or the rinks around the Worcester area are incredibly cheap to rent. Plus they'd only need these facilities on Tuesday, Wednesday, and possibly Thursday depending on when they left for their trip. They'd be at the road building on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, and Monday would be an off day.

Fat finger, extra zero there. Shoulda been $150. Generally, teams get two hours of time. If they have a deal with a practice rink, that defrays costs a bit, but there are still a lot of hidden expenditures. Renting a truck to haul the equipment around. Fuel for the truck. If you go beyond a certain distance for practice, you have to rent a bus and give the boys per diem. That adds up over the course of the season, or over a month where they can't use the game rink, especially if it's the team's usual practice facility.

And in pro hockey, Monday isn't always an off day. Guys are coming in for treatment. Guys are doing dryland. Guys who are rehabbing might skate. Guys who aren't rehabbing will skate if there's ice available.

Everything seems so simple and cheap when we speak in generalities. Too bad it isn't that way in the real world.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

I can imagine a 6-division alignment looking like this:

Brampton, Maine, Newfoundland, Trois-Rivières, Worcester, (expansion placeholder)

Adirondack, Norfolk, Reading, Wheeling, (expansion placeholder)

Atlanta, Florida, Greenville, Jacksonville, Orlando, South Carolina

Cincinnati, Fort Wayne, Indy, Kalamazoo, Toledo, (expansion placeholder)

Allen, Iowa City, Kansas City, Tulsa, Wichita

Idaho, Rapid City, Utah, (2 expansion placeholders)

I'm not choosing any cities for expansion. I would leave that up to the ECHL.

 

[royals119]

I can imagine a 6-division alignment looking like this:

Brampton, Maine, Newfoundland, Trois-Rivières, Worcester, (expansion placeholder)

Adirondack, Norfolk, Reading, Wheeling, (expansion placeholder)

Atlanta, Florida, Greenville, Jacksonville, Orlando, South Carolina

Cincinnati, Fort Wayne, Indy, Kalamazoo, Toledo, (expansion placeholder)

Allen, Iowa City, Kansas City, Tulsa, Wichita

Idaho, Rapid City, Utah, (2 expansion placeholders)

I'm not choosing any cities for expansion. I would leave that up to the ECHL.

I don't think they would do a six division alignment. The league perfers the first two rounds to be within divisions to reduce travel vs a conference playoff system.

Brampton, Maine, Newfoundland, Trois-Rivières, Worcester, Adirondack, Reading, (expansion )

Wheeling Cincinnati, Fort Wayne, Indy, Kalamazoo, Toledo, (2 expansions)

Atlanta, Florida, Greenville, Jacksonville, Orlando, South Carolina, Norfolk, (expansion )

Allen, Iowa City, Kansas City, Tulsa, Wichita Idaho, Rapid City, Utah

In the short term they might stick Iowa in the midwest to balance the divisions while continuing to play an unbalanced schedule.

Might be some movement depending on the expansion teams - Norfolk could end up with the north or the midwest, depending on where the four new teams come from. Of course this is all based on the assmption that no one fold or moves before four teams are added (unlikely).

In another "what if" scenerio, maybe 20-21 becomes a lost season, a few teams fold in both leagues causing the SPHL to collapse, and the remaining teams join the ECHL, adding two net teams to the midwest, and two to the south, with Norfolk pushed to the North to even it out, and we start 21-22 with a 32 team ECHL (also not likely)

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Might be some movement depending on the expansion teams - Norfolk could end up with the north or the midwest, depending on where the four new teams come from. Of course this is all based on the assmption that no one fold or moves before four teams are added (unlikely).

In another "what if" scenerio, maybe 20-21 becomes a lost season, a few teams fold in both leagues causing the SPHL to collapse, and the remaining teams join the ECHL, adding two net teams to the midwest, and two to the south, with Norfolk pushed to the North to even it out, and we start 21-22 with a 32 team ECHL (also not likely)

For SPHL teams to join the ECHL, their ownership groups would have to be willing to nearly double their operating budget. Considering how the words "cost containment" are so readily attached to the SPHL, I doubt any of them would go for it.

Perhaps the ECHL's economic model changes in the wake of Covid-19, but it would still have to be subject to a collectively bargained agreement with the PHPA. As I've said before, possibly in this thread, you're more likely to see a 20-team ECHL before you see a 30-team ECHL again.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

I don't think they would do a six division alignment. The league perfers the first two rounds to be within divisions to reduce travel vs a conference playoff system.

Brampton, Maine, Newfoundland, Trois-Rivières, Worcester, Adirondack, Reading, (expansion )

Wheeling Cincinnati, Fort Wayne, Indy, Kalamazoo, Toledo, (2 expansions)

Atlanta, Florida, Greenville, Jacksonville, Orlando, South Carolina, Norfolk, (expansion )

Allen, Iowa City, Kansas City, Tulsa, Wichita Idaho, Rapid City, Utah

In the short term they might stick Iowa in the midwest to balance the divisions while continuing to play an unbalanced schedule.

Might be some movement depending on the expansion teams - Norfolk could end up with the north or the midwest, depending on where the four new teams come from. Of course this is all based on the assmption that no one fold or moves before four teams are added (unlikely).

In another "what if" scenerio, maybe 20-21 becomes a lost season, a few teams fold in both leagues causing the SPHL to collapse, and the remaining teams join the ECHL, adding two net teams to the midwest, and two to the south, with Norfolk pushed to the North to even it out, and we start 21-22 with a 32 team ECHL (also not likely)

It feels weird having a division called Mountain, yet the majority of the teams are in the Central Time Zone. I thought this up so that the ECHL could potentially add 2 more teams between the Mountain and Pacific Time Zones.

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

It feels weird having a division called Mountain, yet the majority of the teams are in the Central Time Zone. I thought this up so that the ECHL could potentially add 2 more teams between the Mountain and Pacific Time Zones.

Your point? The league called the ECHL, which stands for nothing. It is just letters. It was called the East Coast Hockey League for a long time despite having teams not on the East Coast. The American Hockey League has Canadian teams. The Southern Professional Hockey League has teams not in the South.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

At least name it West Division if we're gonna keep a 4-division alignment.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

At least name it West Division if we're gonna keep a 4-division alignment.

Asking for anything to make sense in minor league hockey is a tall order.

 

[royals119]

For SPHL teams to join the ECHL, their ownership groups would have to be willing to nearly double their operating budget. Considering how the words "cost containment" are so readily attached to the SPHL, I doubt any of them would go for it.

Perhaps the ECHL's economic model changes in the wake of Covid-19, but it would still have to be subject to a collectively bargained agreement with the PHPA. As I've said before, possibly in this thread, you're more likely to see a 20-team ECHL before you see a 30-team ECHL again.

Agreed, but since there is little else going on with minor league hockey, I'm just playing along with Big Z's "what if" scenerio for the league to get to 30, or 32, teams.

If the econimic impact of Covid-19 on minor hockey is significant enough, it is possible enough SPHL teams fold to make the league no longer viable. (just for arguments sake, lets say only Pensacola, Roanoke, Quad City and Peoria are left standing. The low cost SPHL model might not work with that travel schedule) In that situation the few teams remaining, faced with a choice of no team, and an ECHL team, might make that choice

The ECHL, potentially reeling from their own loss of teams, might be willing to make a deal with a group of 3-5 SPHL teams to offer a path to entry they can afford. I don't know the truth, but there were rumblings something similar happened with the former CHL teams when that league collapsed.

 

[Atlantian]

Agreed, but since there is little else going on with minor league hockey, I'm just playing along with Big Z's "what if" scenerio for the league to get to 30, or 32, teams.

If the econimic impact of Covid-19 on minor hockey is significant enough, it is possible enough SPHL teams fold to make the league no longer viable. (just for arguments sake, lets say only Pensacola, Roanoke, Quad City and Peoria are left standing. The low cost SPHL model might not work with that travel schedule) In that situation the few teams remaining, faced with a choice of no team, and an ECHL team, might make that choice

The ECHL, potentially reeling from their own loss of teams, might be willing to make a deal with a group of 3-5 SPHL teams to offer a path to entry they can afford. I don't know the truth, but there were rumblings something similar happened with the former CHL teams when that league collapsed.

Since we are just doing theoreticals now, if for some reason the SPHL is no longer viable, you can lump teams into two different groups by thier attendance figures. I think the ECHL would happily add Huntsville, who according to Hockeydb, has an attendance of just about 5k each year. Theoretically, depending on how hard the ECHL is affected, They could also take Knoxville, Pensacola, Roanoke, and Peoria, who each average about 3500. Knoxville and Pensacola would possibly be great temporary teams to add because of the strength and stability of the current south division lineup. Peoria would be a great travel city in the Central division especially with the new Iowa City team. Roanoke is iffy. The other five teams are Fed teams. That league will never fold. They will force three travel teams if they have to. Any of the bottom five teams in the SPHL that survive the collapse of that league could easily make it in the fed, especially Macon and Birmingham now that columbus is in the league with talks of adding a team in Athens. But this is just a hypothetical. The only teams in the SP I could realistically see lasting long-term in the EC are Huntsville, Knoxville, and Peoria. All others it would be Fed or Fold.

 

[CrazyEddie20]

Since we are just doing theoreticals now, if for some reason the SPHL is no longer viable, you can lump teams into two different groups by thier attendance figures. I think the ECHL would happily add Huntsville, who according to Hockeydb, has an attendance of just about 5k each year. Theoretically, depending on how hard the ECHL is affected, They could also take Knoxville, Pensacola, Roanoke, and Peoria, who each average about 3500. Knoxville and Pensacola would possibly be great temporary teams to add because of the strength and stability of the current south division lineup. Peoria would be a great travel city in the Central division especially with the new Iowa City team. Roanoke is iffy. The other five teams are Fed teams. That league will never fold. They will force three travel teams if they have to. Any of the bottom five teams in the SPHL that survive the collapse of that league could easily make it in the fed, especially Macon and Birmingham now that columbus is in the league with talks of adding a team in Athens. But this is just a hypothetical. The only teams in the SP I could realistically see lasting long-term in the EC are Huntsville, Knoxville, and Peoria. All others it would be Fed or Fold.

Keith "Nickel-and-Dime" Jeffries would have no interest in bringing the Havoc to the ECHL.

 

[JMCx4]

Since we are just doing theoreticals now, if for some reason the SPHL is no longer viable, you can lump teams into two different groups by thier attendance figures. I think the ECHL would happily add Huntsville, who according to Hockeydb, has an attendance of just about 5k each year. Theoretically, depending on how hard the ECHL is affected, They could also take Knoxville, Pensacola, Roanoke, and Peoria, who each average about 3500. Knoxville and Pensacola would possibly be great temporary teams to add because of the strength and stability of the current south division lineup. Peoria would be a great travel city in the Central division especially with the new Iowa City team. Roanoke is iffy. The other five teams are Fed teams. That league will never fold. They will force three travel teams if they have to. Any of the bottom five teams in the SPHL that survive the collapse of that league could easily make it in the fed, especially Macon and Birmingham now that columbus is in the league with talks of adding a team in Athens. But this is just a hypothetical. The only teams in the SP I could realistically see lasting long-term in the EC are Huntsville, Knoxville, and Peoria. All others it would be Fed or Fold.

Theoretically ... none of those team owners would be significantly interested in paying the League entry fee nor the increased costs of operation in the ECHL. Start with the one @CrazyEddie20 cited, and work your way down the list. There would have to be a significant change in League financial structure for any much less all of Hu'ville, K'ville, Pensy, Roanoke, and Peoria to switch. Even theoretically.

 

[PCSPounder]

If we're going to play with theoreticals, how about a scenario where the E and the S bail each other out.

Full merge, play only within tightened home regions (tighter than the current SPHL, certainly), then sort out if/how you run playoffs.

Leave no doubt that I'm not holding my breath here. But if you want ANY growth in this new decade, that's about the only way you'll attract new markets.

 

[JMCx4]

@PCSPounder: A milestone in your HFB posting career: Not one mention of Portland, OR getting a team in either League (or the combined one).

 

[GindyDraws]

Theoretically ... none of those team owners would be significantly interested in paying the League entry fee nor the increased costs of operation in the ECHL. Start with the one @CrazyEddie20 cited, and work your way down the list. There would have to be a significant change in League financial structure for any much less all of Hu'ville, K'ville, Pensy, Roanoke, and Peoria to switch. Even theoretically.

We COULD use Evansville again, but I think that would require a much more friendly arena deal to offset the costs of being in the ECHL, and even so, I'm not sure if attendance would be any better outside of games played against Indy or Fort Wayne. I just liked having three teams in the same state, that's all.

And I don't think other ECHL teams would be happy if we grandfathered some of these teams in with friendlier deals just so there's additional franchises for travelling purposes, for several reasons.

 

[Atlantian]

This is all a prediction thread so here's mine for 2025 ECHL, provided we make it through COVID. I do not think we will hit 30 in the next 5 years.
North - 7
- Newfoundland
- Reading
- Adirondack
- Trois Rivieres
- Worcester
- Maine
- Manchester (Expansion)

South - 7
- Atlanta
- Orlando
- Greenville
- South Carolina
- Florida
- Jacksonville
- Savannah GA (Expansion)

Central - 8
- Cincinnati
- Wheeling
- Toledo
- Ft. Wayne
- Indy
- Clarksville TN (Expansion)
- Kansas City
- Iowa City/Coralville

Western - 8
- Tulsa
- Wichita
- Allen
- Rapid City
- Utah
- Idaho
- OKC or San Antonio (Expansion)
- Reno (Expansion)

I cannot believe I seriously suggested Reno, but here we are. With Vegas putting a team in Henderson, once they're successful, I believe there is no doubt they will throw money at reno just like they did in san Antonio to put a team there. As for OKC and San Antonio, I believe the ECHL will work to put teams in those markets to add another travel partner to the already spread out Mountain division

 

[royals119]

T

Central - 8
- Cincinnati
- Wheeling
- Toledo
- Ft. Wayne
- Indy
- Wheeling
- Kansas City
- Iowa City/Coralville

Are the two Wheeling teams going to share an arena, or will they build a new one for the second team?

 

[Barclay Donaldson]

- Tulsa
- Wichita
- Allen
- Rapid City
- Utah
- Idaho
- OKC or San Antonio (Expansion)
- Reno (Expansion)

I cannot believe I seriously suggested Reno, but here we are. With Vegas putting a team in Henderson, once they're successful, I believe there is no doubt they will throw money at reno just like they did in san Antonio to put a team there. As for OKC and San Antonio, I believe the ECHL will work to put teams in those markets to add another travel partner to the already spread out Mountain division

Vegas explored that market for their AHL team. There is zero chance they will throw money at it for their ECHL team if they won't even throw money at for their AHL team. Hockey in Reno is a non-starter.

It was already explored by the ECHL, but the NBA and NBA developmental league are both deeply ingrained into the only two arenas capable of hosting a ECHL team. The noted issues were the impossibility of getting enough prime home dates for such a team to be financially feasible and the fact they are competing with two fairly popular teams in an already small market. Hockey in Oklahoma City is a non-starter.

Hockey in San Antonio is incredibly unlikely. The Spur ownership group sold the team because they weren't making them money. There is no other arena for them to play in, and a different owner getting in there isn't happening. They always did well for attendance, and their AHL staff and player salaries were minimal.

 

[JMCx4]

... Hockey in San Antonio is incredibly unlikely. The Spur ownership group sold the team because they weren't making them money. There is no other arena for them to play in, and a different owner getting in there isn't happening. They always did well for attendance, and their AHL staff and player salaries were minimal.

While I share your overall sentiment on SA as a not-bloody-likely landing spot for ECHL hockey, the city does have an "other arena" in the Alamodome. It has a functional ice plant (as witnessed by this recent job posting), which history shows is more than enough for hockey fans to include a city repeatedly in such speculative discussions.