ECHL San Francisco -- ceasing operations 1/27/14

[Johnny8242]

I'll miss you SF Bulls. You were beautiful and wonderful.

Lots of good ECHL players going to be Free Agents now. Should be interesting for the other teams.

 

[JeffNYI]

I'd love more details on this. I cant imagine the Cow Palace makes more sitting empty. There is probably a reason I am not a CEO, but if it was up to me, $15 admission, all seats, no parking charges, and advertise $5 PBR nights. People would go just for the cheap beer.

I'm NOT ... again, NOT ... saying this is what actually happened.. but I am saying it's possible..

While the team may have had problems meeting other obligations, there's a very real scenario in which a struggling team could not pay its arena..

--------------------------------

Normally, the day after a game there's a settlement for the event.. if the arena's box office took in more money on game day on behalf of the team (combined with team's concessions share if any, etc) than the rent and all other costs - the venue cuts a check to the team for the difference... if the venue doesn't take in enough money to cover the game's costs, the team needs to pay the venue.

When you look at the Bulls attendance, the first thing one wonders is how many of those tickets were already pre-paid TO THE TEAM in the form of season tickets, or tickets distributed as part of corporate packages.. comp tickets, etc.. and thus with little walk-up crowd, very little money would have never entered the VENUE'S accounts..

It's quite possible that the revenue from game-day ticket purchases at the box office were actually really low.. and given the attendance at the games, concessions revenue were potentially far below expectations as well.. so it's not like the venue would say "okay well, so what if the team isn't paying us because the fans are scarfing down our hotdogs and beer and we're profiting $25k/game due to our concession stands"

In cases like this, it's possible the team could be unable to pay the game day liabilities from game to game.. the venue makes a decision to let the games continue for awhile in the hope of eventually being paid.. (plus a team could be snowing the venue saying they have X or Y revenue coming in - or new owners who will settle any balance).

At some point the venue realizes they'll never be paid the money they're owed.. and they act by refusing any more events to occur unless all outstanding balances are paid either in full or at least a meaningful percentage to re-establish good faith..

The team may not even be able to pay travel and payroll expenses, let alone paying the venue..

So in a scenario like this, the venue does indeed lose less money sitting empty.. and the venue does what it has to do..

------------------------------------

NOT SAYING THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED IN SF WITH THE BULLS AND COW PALACE.

 

[LadyStanley]

http://www.echl.com/echl-transactions-jan-27-p190055

Two Bulls players "traded" to other teams.

(I'd have to think that those might be the "completion" of "Future Consideration" trades?)

There are another 16 ECHL players now UFAs, who may or may not be signed by other teams. (Not to mention the Sharks five prospects looking for new homes.)

 

[CrazyEddie20]

http://www.echl.com/echl-transactions-jan-27-p190055

Two Bulls players "traded" to other teams.

(I'd have to think that those might be the "completion" of "Future Consideration" trades?)

There are another 16 ECHL players now UFAs, who may or may not be signed by other teams. (Not to mention the Sharks five prospects looking for new homes.)

Correct, future considerations trades have to be resolved before the remaining players can be declared free agents.

 

[Off da post and in]

I'll miss you SF Bulls. You were beautiful and wonderful.

Lots of good ECHL players going to be Free Agents now. Should be interesting for the other teams.

I'll speculate that the 5 San Jose prospects will end up on a non-affiliated ECHL team, located out West.

The 16 remaining players will end up in either the ECHL, CHL, SPHL, European Leagues, or be out in the cold for a period of time. The mid-season folds have a tendency not to work well for the players in most cases.

 

[LadyStanley]

Per AHL transactions, the five Sharks (NHL/AHL) players have been assigned to ECHL Ontario.



http://www.recordnet.com/apps/pbcs....gn=Feed:+ThunderHeadlines+(Thunder+Headlines)

Stockton might be interested in signing one or more of the 16 UFAs.



Sharks have not made any announcement regarding official affiliation with any ECHL team.

 

[paul-laus]

People on these boards bash the CHL and its instability to no end (more often than not warranted). But I find it almost laughable that these same posters give the ECHL a free pass as if it's some beacon of stability in North American Minor Pro Hockey.

No one ever mentions the fact that this is now the third ECHL team (Augusta, Fresno) to fold mid season in less than five years. I can't think of anything that tarnishes a league worse than a team closing shop and not making it to the finish line and the schedule changes and roster moves that result. Even the CHL hasn't had this occur since the Chill.

Everybody has been gaga about the new Indianapolis team for next season and hyping it including McKenna but if the ECHL brings them in and loses San Fran and Las Vegas its a net loss of one for the league count. How's this progress for a league that's supposed to be the premier double A league? It's comical....

 

[PCSPounder]

People on these boards bash the CHL and its instability to no end (more often than not warranted). But I find it almost laughable that these same posters give the ECHL a free pass as if it's some beacon of stability in North American Minor Pro Hockey.

No one ever mentions the fact that this is now the third ECHL team (Augusta, Fresno) to fold mid season in less than five years. I can't think of anything that tarnishes a league worse than a team closing shop and not making it to the finish line and the schedule changes and roster moves that result. Even the CHL hasn't had this occur since the Chill.

Everybody has been gaga about the new Indianapolis team for next season and hyping it including McKenna but if the ECHL brings them in and loses San Fran and Las Vegas its a net loss of one for the league count. How's this progress for a league that's supposed to be the premier double A league? It's comical....

In relative terms, the CHL still stinks.

The thing is, the scam with the ECHL is the affiliations when, in reality, the 5 Sharks in SF is more than the usual.

The reality: I think the operative quote is "how does an owner become a millionaire in hockey? He starts out as a billionaire." The ECHL at least tries to grab a territory with multiple teams with some geographic connection. Don't even get me started on Brampton.

However, after I researched this stuff again last year, a pertinent question. Are we better off with smaller regional leagues with 6-8 teams? Is the ideal to have familiarity breed contempt? But will that help the NHL players?

 

[IrascibleOne]

FWIW, Las Vegas hasn't folded. The most recent word is that they're secured a location, and will be around next season. An announcement is expected from the team soon.

 

[Jackets Woodchuck]

In relative terms, the CHL still stinks.

The thing is, the scam with the ECHL is the affiliations when, in reality, the 5 Sharks in SF is more than the usual.

The reality: I think the operative quote is "how does an owner become a millionaire in hockey? He starts out as a billionaire." The ECHL at least tries to grab a territory with multiple teams with some geographic connection. Don't even get me started on Brampton.

However, after I researched this stuff again last year, a pertinent question. Are we better off with smaller regional leagues with 6-8 teams? Is the ideal to have familiarity breed contempt? But will that help the NHL players?

The real question is does the NHL need a development level below the AHL? Couldn't the AHL affiliate just take on a few extra players (given that AHL rosters are unlimited) and just have all the prospects in one place?

Not saying that I necessarily believe in such a scenario being optimal, but it's worth thinking about.

Also, why not a national league with regional divisions and no interdivision play until the playoffs? Amateur/summer college soccer leagues (such as the PDL and NPSL) have done well with this concept.

 

[LadyStanley]

http://echl.com/echl-releases-updates-to-2013-14-schedule-p190084

Revised schedule

 

[PCSPounder]

I'm NOT ... again, NOT ... saying this is what actually happened.. but I am saying it's possible..

While the team may have had problems meeting other obligations, there's a very real scenario in which a struggling team could not pay its arena..

--------------------------------

Normally, the day after a game there's a settlement for the event.. if the arena's box office took in more money on game day on behalf of the team (combined with team's concessions share if any, etc) than the rent and all other costs - the venue cuts a check to the team for the difference... if the venue doesn't take in enough money to cover the game's costs, the team needs to pay the venue.

When you look at the Bulls attendance, the first thing one wonders is how many of those tickets were already pre-paid TO THE TEAM in the form of season tickets, or tickets distributed as part of corporate packages.. comp tickets, etc.. and thus with little walk-up crowd, very little money would have never entered the VENUE'S accounts..

It's quite possible that the revenue from game-day ticket purchases at the box office were actually really low.. and given the attendance at the games, concessions revenue were potentially far below expectations as well.. so it's not like the venue would say "okay well, so what if the team isn't paying us because the fans are scarfing down our hotdogs and beer and we're profiting $25k/game due to our concession stands"

In cases like this, it's possible the team could be unable to pay the game day liabilities from game to game.. the venue makes a decision to let the games continue for awhile in the hope of eventually being paid.. (plus a team could be snowing the venue saying they have X or Y revenue coming in - or new owners who will settle any balance).

At some point the venue realizes they'll never be paid the money they're owed.. and they act by refusing any more events to occur unless all outstanding balances are paid either in full or at least a meaningful percentage to re-establish good faith..

The team may not even be able to pay travel and payroll expenses, let alone paying the venue..

So in a scenario like this, the venue does indeed lose less money sitting empty.. and the venue does what it has to do..

------------------------------------

NOT SAYING THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED IN SF WITH THE BULLS AND COW PALACE.

Concerts clear more money for arena and bands.

You mentioned comp tickets. I see a LOT of that. In an expensive-to-operate place like San Francisco, I can but imagine that the only way you get the word out effectively is at fairs and gatherings, and only then by handing out free tickets. I can scarcely imagine what PAID attendance was. Of course, when you start giving out tickets, people anymore expect more free tickets.

One thing I'd never do, even with the Sharks down the road, is try to place a minor league team in the Cow Palace... or the supposedly incoming SF arena... or Oracle. I was at Oracle Sunday, they could sneak in a rink, but post-renovation it is a basketball arena with basketball angles and sightlines, and hockey would be crap there. However, it's the same problem regardless... you can't afford TV advertising to the target audience, there's too many major league teams, and the Sharks are down the road.

 

[LippinOff]

People on these boards bash the CHL and its instability to no end (more often than not warranted). But I find it almost laughable that these same posters give the ECHL a free pass as if it's some beacon of stability in North American Minor Pro Hockey.

No one ever mentions the fact that this is now the third ECHL team (Augusta, Fresno) to fold mid season in less than five years. I can't think of anything that tarnishes a league worse than a team closing shop and not making it to the finish line and the schedule changes and roster moves that result. Even the CHL hasn't had this occur since the Chill.

Everybody has been gaga about the new Indianapolis team for next season and hyping it including McKenna but if the ECHL brings them in and loses San Fran and Las Vegas its a net loss of one for the league count. How's this progress for a league that's supposed to be the premier double A league? It's comical....

No offense, but you're letting your emotions cloud your common sense. Putting the ECHL in the same sinking boat as the CHL is kind of silly given the make up of their respective members.

 

[easternrefugee]

I was told that the SJ contracted players will be going to Ontario. Gee... I guess the Kings and the Sharks swim in the same waters.

 

[Yog S'loth]

Ontario STH holder here.

No official word yet on getting any of the Bulls players, but the revised schedule is out.

Ontario makes no home schedule changes, but loses one road game, to play a 71-game schedule.

[EDIT] Contacted the team PR, was told this:

We will be receiving one player under contract with San Jose (NHL) and three under contract with Worcester (AHL) as they have been assigned to us by their organizations.

 

[LadyStanley]

http://sharks.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=702941
Sharks official announcement of 4 players (1 NHL + 3 AHL contracts) to ECHL Ontario.

(The goalie JP Anderson is recovering from injury, so for now he's been "assigned" to Worcester.)

 

[PCSPounder]

And half were owned by the Jr. Sharks, which is NOT a good thing for hockey in the area. That organization is just scum and I won't get into why but I have very strong reasons for saying that.

I'd be curious if you'd expand on this.

I could easily say it's the same territorial squabbles I always see with soccer. I could say such an organization looks for all the money. There's just nothing pretty about the politics at the youth level in any sport. Please do tell.

 

[paul-laus]

No offense, but you're letting your emotions cloud your common sense. Putting the ECHL in the same sinking boat as the CHL is kind of silly given the make up of their respective members.

Perhaps you misinterpreted my post. At no point did I lump the ECHL in with the CHL. Trust me, I'm familiar with the CHL and the misguided desire of a few owners to keep the league alive with desperate measures being the norm. The CHL has lost team after team and the ECHL has a number of markets that have worked. But I was pointing out that for all the CHL bashing that occurs in this forum, nobody ever mentions how laughable the ECHL is in its own right.

Folding teams mid season and having to reorganize is as bush league as it gets and the fact that the ECHL has done it three times in under five years speaks volumes. People give the league too much credit. To put things in perspective, the ECHL still has Reno and Columbia listed on its website for future markets. What a joke. Wheeling is a joke, Elmira's a joke and the entrance into Victoria was a move that most would expect from the CHL, and many of the ECHL's more solid markets like Reading and Florida Everblades are showing signs of wilting....They may bring in Indy next year but could lose as many as four teams and that is just ridiculous for a league that prides itself on being the premier double a league.....

 

[PCSPounder]

Perhaps you misinterpreted my post. At no point did I lump the ECHL in with the CHL. Trust me, I'm familiar with the CHL and the misguided desire of a few owners to keep the league alive with desperate measures being the norm. The CHL has lost team after team and the ECHL has a number of markets that have worked. But I was pointing out that for all the CHL bashing that occurs in this forum, nobody ever mentions how laughable the ECHL is in its own right.

Folding teams mid season and having to reorganize is as bush league as it gets and the fact that the ECHL has done it three times in under five years speaks volumes. People give the league too much credit. To put things in perspective, the ECHL still has Reno and Columbia listed on its website for future markets. What a joke. Wheeling is a joke, Elmira's a joke and the entrance into Victoria was a move that most would expect from the CHL, and many of the ECHL's more solid markets like Reading and Florida Everblades are showing signs of wilting....They may bring in Indy next year but could lose as many as four teams and that is just ridiculous for a league that prides itself on being the premier double a league.....

I have a more major objection to your post: you're talking about all that's left of supposed "AA hockey." It's possible the problem is more systemic. At times, you can trash leagues... but at some point, Brampton happens because the Central is simply trying to maintain numbers. The ECHL merges and tries to shop around for close to the same reasons.

I believe we consider the AHL to be managing fairly well. Do we believe the SPHL is alright? Possibly? The middle of this supposed pyramid is eroding, however. Is this level of minor pro going away?

Let me throw a wrinkle in here: how many Central league teams ended up converting to NAHL? Is Junior the future? Given there's already a rebellion against USA Hockey, I could see someone promising a non-college path as a pro feeder. Of course, I'm in a relatively large market with Major Junior, many people elsewhere seem to react less than well to what they see as "high school hockey," I'm not putting all my eggs in that basket. However, when the problem becomes the survival of lower levels of the sport altogether, the solutions kind of get creative now, no?

 

[LadyStanley]

brodiebrazilCSN 8:43am via TweetDeck Two great reads on the @SFBulls folding… from an employee: http://t.co/VkYOPVTcE5 and from a news critic: http://t.co/4jrZqPLPmY

 

[mfrerkes]

People on these boards bash the CHL and its instability to no end (more often than not warranted). But I find it almost laughable that these same posters give the ECHL a free pass as if it's some beacon of stability in North American Minor Pro Hockey.

If the ECHL were a ten-team league, with four teams being owned by just two ownership groups and another being run covertly by the league, then more people would likely express cynicism about the ECHL's future as well. Yes, the E has some weak franchises that have been/will be going by the wayside. However, when you look at the big picture, the CHL is currently in a much more precarious position.

Furthermore, if you look at the teams who have recently jumped from the CHL to ECHL (Colorado, Evansville, Fort Wayne) it paints a vivid picture of reality. Rapid City and Allen are no dummies. They wanted to free themselves of the CHL this past summer, but were bound by legal restrictions. If those contracts didn't exist, you can bet the Rush and the Americans would already be in the ECHL this season.

The ECHL is far from perfect. It is also far from being extinct. The same cannot be said of the CHL.

 

[desert dawg]

Oracle

One thing I'd never do, even with the Sharks down the road, is try to place a minor league team in the Cow Palace... or the supposedly incoming SF arena... or Oracle. I was at Oracle Sunday, they could sneak in a rink, but post-renovation it is a basketball arena with basketball angles and sightlines, and hockey would be crap there. However, it's the same problem regardless... you can't afford TV advertising to the target audience, there's too many major league teams, and the Sharks are down the road.[/QUOTE]

Regarding the Oracle, can I reveal my age and admit to having watched the Golden Seals take on the Broadstreet Bullies from Philly??? I remember it being a decent place to watch a hockey game.

Managed to make it to the Cow Palace for a game last year to take in Bulls-- sorry to seem them go, but I went ASAP from out of town for a reason. They made a fortune I bet from chuck a puck-

Also don't forget to add Phx Roadrunners to teams that did not make it in major league cities. To bad they tried to make it work at US Airways- would have been better at Vets, but ice was removed preventing that from happening.

 

[PCSPounder]

Regarding the Oracle, can I reveal my age and admit to having watched the Golden Seals take on the Broadstreet Bullies from Philly??? I remember it being a decent place to watch a hockey game.

This was my first time in Oracle since they completely gutted and rebuilt the interior. It probably was a nice place for hockey before the renovation. I think it's nice seating for basketball, but I would not want to be there during an earthquake.

 

[GareFan18]

The real question is does the NHL need a development level below the AHL? Couldn't the AHL affiliate just take on a few extra players (given that AHL rosters are unlimited) and just have all the prospects in one place?

I think for goaltender development, you do need a development level below the AHL. Goalies need games and 60 starting goaltender jobs (NHL + AHL) simply isn't enough.

Perhaps AA hockey should be more like AA baseball. AA baseball has three leagues of 12, 10 and 8. Seems like something like this could work for AA hockey -- 8 teams in the Mountain/West time zone, 8 teams in the Central time zone, 14 teams in the East.

 

[Off da post and in]

I think for goaltender development, you do need a development level below the AHL. Goalies need games and 60 starting goaltender jobs (NHL + AHL) simply isn't enough.

Perhaps AA hockey should be more like AA baseball. AA baseball has three leagues of 12, 10 and 8. Seems like something like this could work for AA hockey -- 8 teams in the Mountain/West time zone, 8 teams in the Central time zone, 14 teams in the East.

AA hockey is very close to what you think it should be right now.

The ECHL has 14 teams in the East, and 8 teams in the Mountain/West. The CHL has 10 teams located in between.

The ECHL is going to add one more team, Indianapolis, in the East. Meanwhile, the CHL is looking to add Louisville in the East and Casper,WY in the Mountain/West... there could be as many as 35 teams next season. However, both the ECHL & CHL may have some teams folding.

Question is: IF or When is the merger happening?