ECHL San Francisco -- ceasing operations 1/27/14

[LadyStanley]

ECHL San Francisco -- new ownership or fold by next week

http://blog.sfgate.com/sgreen/2014/01/20/sf-bulls-to-fold-or-move-as-soon-as-next-week/

Might move to Oakland (if the NBA Warriors are willing to share facility) or Fresno (Selland?) under new ownership.

Team lost $2m last year and state made ~$500k from Cow Palace lease, but not willing to renegotiate deal.

Attendance down 52%.


Stay tuned for Wednesday's BOG meeting in Philadelphia.

Click to read more...

 

[No Fun Shogun]

Yikes... that's a sharp drop. Hard to believe that they were initially being lofted alongside Orlando as one of the successes taking advantage of last year's lockout.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

$2 million per year in losses. Wow.

Too bad that they're all but gone. Seems like it was a pretty poor proposition to begin with. Bad rental terms plus the costs of ice plant and scoreboard, high housing rental prices, impossibility of getting any decent media coverage, major league teams in all 4 major sports to compete with......

The failure of the Chicago Express (2011-12 ECHL) evidently didn't register with the ownership of the Bulls. The ECHL doesn't work in mega metropolitan areas.

 

[LadyStanley]

The team seemed to concentrate their marketing on SF and north.

Never really encouraged Peninsula/South Bay (more likely NHL Sharks fans) to come to games. I would have preferred to travel there by train, and they never had any shuttles for pickups. (So never went to games.)

 

[No Fun Shogun]

There probably is a lot to that Express analogy. There were games where I was the only person in my section, which really wasn't all too surprising given the fact that the Hawks and AHL Wolves probably more than satiated both the live and televised hockey demand in the market. There is something to be potentially said about low level minor league teams just being drowned in major markets, especially ones that already have an NHL team in them.

But even if all went well, just sounds like their startup and rental costs were too much of a barrier to overcome.

 

[LadyStanley]

http://www.mercurynews.com/sharks/c...sco-bulls-minor-league-hockey-team?source=rss

Little impact on NHL Sharks.

The Sharks only have three players on the Bulls who are on two-way contracts — wingers Riley Brace and Sebastian Stalberg and goaltender J.P. Anderson. A Sharks spokesman said if the Bulls fold, those players would be reassigned to another minor league team. The Sharks would also likely seek to gain affiliation with another ECHL team in California.

Sharks general manager Doug Wilson was not available for comment.

 

[Francis10]

Fresno and the Selland arena seems like a good place to move.

 

[Rude]

...

What a bummer. I wonder how they'll handle season ticket packages if they fold or move to Oakland. More info to come, I'm sure.

Also curious if any Niners fans would have eventually made their way to the Cow Palace once the team moves to Santa Clara.

-Rude

 

[Cyclones Rock]

There probably is a lot to that Express analogy. There were games where I was the only person in my section, which really wasn't all too surprising given the fact that the Hawks and AHL Wolves probably more than satiated both the live and televised hockey demand in the market. There is something to be potentially said about low level minor league teams just being drowned in major markets, especially ones that already have an NHL team in them.

But even if all went well, just sounds like their startup and rental costs were too much of a barrier to overcome.

I remember seeing Express staff in Cincinnati at a game in the year prior to the team taking the ice. Cincinnati was but one of their visits to other ECHL teams in their "start up" phase. The Express were definitely not a hastily thrown together team. They used their ample lead time to not only study other ECHL teams' strategies, but had the experience of the UHL Chicago Hounds (2006-07,same owner as Express, same venue) upon which to draw. Unfortunately, their thorough preparation and prior experience wasn't near enough to make the franchise work.

I attended one game at the Sears Center and had a very positive experience.

As you said, the Wolves and the Hawks (plus the USHL Steel) have saturated the market. When I passed the Rosemont Horizon (now Allstate Arena...home of the Wolves) and saw that it was only four highway exits away from the Sears Center, all I could do was:

Cincinnati, Las Vegas and Orlando are all larger markets, but LV has no major league sports competition and Orlando only has the Magic.
Cincinnati has both the Reds and the Bengals, but the city has a professional ice hockey history dating back to 1949 and gets decent TV and radio coverage.

The ECHL has a lot of trouble spots. While it is disappointing that the team in San Franciso is on the verge of failing, it probably shouldn't be all that surprising.

 

[LadyStanley]

Curcio & the Bulls had an entire year to get prepped as well.

 

[No Fun Shogun]

I'm not doubting the due diligence of either the Express or the Bulls. For a variety of reasons, sometimes it just seems fated for a team to fold.

For the Express, it was the nearby Wolves already offering cheap hockey, being located in a venue that I'm only half-joking when I say is cursed, and a local fanbase that didn't want to go to games when the Hawks were on TV. For the Bulls, sounds like it was prohibitive start up costs and probably local hockey fans not wanting to miss televised Sharks games.

ECHL can work in bigger markets, a la the Cyclones and hopefully the Fuel, but there seems to be a barrier that's very tough to overcome when a higher level team's already there. Seems logical that most fans of a sport in a market would prefer to watch their NHL team on TV than go see an ECHL team live. Just because more people may go to NHL games if their venues were bigger doesn't mean that the folks unable to go to games would go to a lower level live experience over watching the NHL on TV.

 

[mfrerkes]

The ECHL has a lot of trouble spots. While it is disappointing that the team in San Franciso is on the verge of failing, it probably shouldn't be all that surprising.

If your plans include operating some AA hockey club in a market where the NHL already exists, you should probably reconsider. The recent track record of such teams doesn't inspire confidence.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

ECHL can work in bigger markets, a la the Cyclones and hopefully the Fuel, but there seems to be a barrier that's very tough to overcome when a higher level team's already there. Seems logical that most fans of a sport in a market would prefer to watch their NHL team on TV than go see an ECHL team live. Just because more people may go to NHL games if their venues were bigger doesn't mean that the folks unable to go to games would go to a lower level live experience over watching the NHL on TV.

I'm optimistic about the Fuel having success in Indy. However, the Ice (USHL) is owned by a very deep-pocketed crew and a two team hockey market is a recipe for disaster. I'm banking on the Ice ownership quitting the market.

I've seen a couple of situations which are interesting to me regarding minor league teams in major league markets. The Columbus Stars of the UHL were in existence during the NHL lockout of 2004-05. The team drew about 400 per game and were (obviously) not viewed as a replacement team by Columbus Blue Jacket fans whose team didn't play that year. At the time, the Blue Jackets were still averaging big crowds yet nobody (literally) gave a damn about the Stars who led the UHL standings at the time of their January folding.

Last season, the Cincinnati Cyclones early season attendance was very poor. The management of the Cyclones attributed this to the NHL lockout. Without the coverage of the NHL in the media, hockey wasn't in the minds of many people. As such, their interest in minor league hockey lagged. A confirmation of this was in 2004-05 when the AHL Cincinnati Mighty Ducks had the Cincinnati hockey market to themselves (The ECHL Cyclones suspended operations that year and the next). Though the Ducks had a quasi-NHL roster and didn't have the local competition, their attendance fell from the previous year.

So, it seems as if AA minor league hockey is not a replacement for NHL hockey nor a substitute. Additionally, minor league hockey needs the NHL operating to maximize its level of popularity.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

If your plans include operating some AA hockey club in a market where the NHL already exists, you should probably reconsider. The recent track record of such teams doesn't inspire confidence.

It's been almost a universal disaster, hasn't it? Here's the list of low minor league teams in NHL markets during the past decade. Add if I've missed anyone.

1) Chicago Hounds (UHL 2007) folded after one year
2) Chicago Express (ECHL 2012) folded after one year
3) Columbus Stars (UHL 2005) folded during first year
4) St. Charles Chill (CHL 2013-4) St. Louis Blues....drawing flies in first year......... The clock is ticking
5) Denver Cutthroats (CHL 2012-14)....sub 2000 attendance average overall........... On death watch.
6) San Francisco Bulls (ECHL 2012-14).......the plug could be pulled any day.


The Gwinnett Gladiators (ECHL 2003-present) appear to be the lone exception to these short-lived AA franchises in NHL markets. Gwinnett is in the Atlanta metropolitan area and shared the market with the NHL Thrashers until that franchise relocated to Winnipeg a few years ago.

 

[jabberoski]

I've seen a couple of situations which are interesting to me regarding minor league teams in major league markets. The Columbus Stars of the UHL were in existence during the NHL lockout of 2004-05. The team drew about 400 per game and were (obviously) not viewed as a replacement team by Columbus Blue Jacket fans whose team didn't play that year. At the time, the Blue Jackets were still averaging big crowds yet nobody (literally) gave a damn about the Stars who led the UHL standings at the time of their January folding.

For the record, the Stars played during the 2003-04 season, not 2004-05.

http://www.hockeydb.com/stte/columbus-stars-5325.html

 

[CrazyEddie20]

IThe Columbus Stars of the UHL were in existence during the NHL lockout of 2004-05. The team drew about 400 per game and were (obviously) not viewed as a replacement team by Columbus Blue Jacket fans whose team didn't play that year. At the time, the Blue Jackets were still averaging big crowds yet nobody (literally) gave a damn about the Stars who led the UHL standings at the time of their January folding.

Come on, an average of 973 literally gave a damn every night about Malcolm Cameron's club that played at the Fairgrounds!

 

[sharksohnoes!]

So, it seems as if AA minor league hockey is not a replacement for NHL hockey nor a substitute. Additionally, minor league hockey needs the NHL operating to maximize its level of popularity.

Not true, and the Bulls are the perfect example. The Cow Palace was packed between October and February last year during the lockout. It was perfect timing for the Bulls, but unfortunately they weren't able to hold interest.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

For the record, the Stars played during the 2003-04 season, not 2004-05.

http://www.hockeydb.com/stte/columbus-stars-5325.html

oops

Come on, an average of 973 literally gave a damn every night about Malcolm Cameron's club that played at the Fairgrounds!

No way I went to most of the games and counted the "crowd" a lot of the time. There were a couple below 200.

It was so obvious that the Stars were in trouble by December that I started calling their office to see if they were playing on game nights. Ultimately, calling saved me a trip to Columbus as the team folded on a day when there was a scheduled home game.

 

[MSteudle]

I was surprised any league would give sf another shot at hockey after the ihll spiders saga, this will probably be the cities death nail for at least another 25 yrs

 

[Rocko604]

I guess you could add the Rocky Mountain Rage (06-09) to that list as well, 16 miles outside Denver.

In addition to the NHL teams in the area, Denver, and the Rage and Columbus before them, have/had NCAA programs to compete with as well.

 

[lennysundahl]

It's been almost a universal disaster, hasn't it? Here's the list of low minor league teams in NHL markets during the past decade. Add if I've missed anyone.

1) Chicago Hounds (UHL 2007) folded after one year
2) Chicago Express (ECHL 2012) folded after one year
3) Columbus Stars (UHL 2005) folded during first year
4) St. Charles Chill (CHL 2013-4) St. Louis Blues....drawing flies in first year......... The clock is ticking
5) Denver Cutthroats (CHL 2012-14)....sub 2000 attendance average overall........... On death watch.
6) San Francisco Bulls (ECHL 2012-14).......the plug could be pulled any day.


The Gwinnett Gladiators (ECHL 2003-present) appear to be the lone exception to these short-lived AA franchises in NHL markets. Gwinnett is in the Atlanta metropolitan area and shared the market with the NHL Thrashers until that franchise relocated to Winnipeg a few years ago.

The Gladiators have done well because they're right in the middle of the affluent suburbs of Atlanta. The Braves have taken notes, apparently, because they're moving to Cobb County when their lease at Turner Field runs out.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

I guess you could add the Rocky Mountain Rage (06-09) to that list as well, 16 miles outside Denver.

In addition to the NHL teams in the area, Denver, and the Rage and Columbus before them, have/had NCAA programs to compete with as well.

Thanks. I forgot about them. Love the name.

 

[Francis10]

The original Colorado Eagles in the CHL had some success and good fan support. But I think that isn't the norm in these cases.

 

[CNS]

Bay Area hockey really died over the last decade. SF used to have a youth team but I'm not sure they're around anymore. I'm 21 now and played hockey in the Bay Area from 5 to 18. In that time, the Bay went from 12+ teams to ~6. I have to think that might have had something to do with the failure of a team in SF.

 

[LadyStanley]

Bay Area hockey really died over the last decade. SF used to have a youth team but I'm not sure they're around anymore. I'm 21 now and played hockey in the Bay Area from 5 to 18. In that time, the Bay went from 12+ teams to ~6. I have to think that might have had something to do with the failure of a team in SF.

SF hockey may have reduced (what's the state of local ice rinks), but San Jose has been increasing greatly.

SJ is among the country's leaders in # of adults participating in ice hockey (there are two MORE rinks on the board for Sharks Ice SJ, including ~5k arena) and also growing #s of kids participating.

And given the Sharks also operate rinks in Fremont and Oakland, the reports are that hockey is doing quite well there. (They are also trying to build rink in Pleasanton.)