ECHL San Francisco -- ceasing operations 1/27/14

Cyclones Rock

Registered User
Jun 12, 2008
10,602
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AA hockey is very close to what you think it should be right now.

The ECHL has 14 teams in the East, and 8 teams in the Mountain/West. The CHL has 10 teams located in between.

The ECHL is going to add one more team, Indianapolis, in the East. Meanwhile, the CHL is looking to add Louisville in the East and Casper,WY in the Mountain/West... there could be as many as 35 teams next season. However, both the ECHL & CHL may have some teams folding.

Question is: IF or When is the merger happening?

The merger already has started. Colorado jumped from the CHL to the ECHL in 2011. Evansville and Fort Wayne jumped in 2012. Allen and Rapid City tried to jump in 2013, but legal maneuvers by the CHL prevented them from doing so.

I would think that the time frame the ECHL will end up absorbing the remaining viable CHL teams would be from next season (2014-15) to, at the latest, the 2015-16 season.
 

GareFan18

Registered User
Jan 10, 2014
149
46
Kansas City
The merger already has started. Colorado jumped from the CHL to the ECHL in 2011. Evansville and Fort Wayne jumped in 2012. Allen and Rapid City tried to jump in 2013, but legal maneuvers by the CHL prevented them from doing so.

I would think that the time frame the ECHL will end up absorbing the remaining viable CHL teams would be from next season (2014-15) to, at the latest, the 2015-16 season.

Right, but they aren't quite there, yet. 30 teams -- 14/8/8, all teams with affiliations and, the key to the whole thing, the same salary cap across all three leagues so that the three leagues are all playing from the same sheet of music.

Missouri is definitely one of those CHL teams. They outdraw both Allen and RC
 

ripham23232

Registered User
Nov 6, 2013
69
8
Grand Rapids, Michigan
Right, but they aren't quite there, yet. 30 teams -- 14/8/8, all teams with affiliations and, the key to the whole thing, the same salary cap across all three leagues so that the three leagues are all playing from the same sheet of music.

Missouri is definitely one of those CHL teams. They outdraw both Allen and RC

Honestly, what I think needs to happen if minor league hockey is to be taken seriously is the same thing that happened with minor league baseball starting in the late 80's. Major League Baseball committed fully to building the minors as a ladder to the majors, invested in the lower levels of the sport and have helped groom minor league baseball into what it is now. It may be on the NHL at this point to give the sport some stability in that regard. We can all agree the AHL is doing ok, and undoubtedly serves as the AAA league. If AA is what they want, then put 30 teams across the country in smaller, regional based leagues as someone mentioned. (California league, Midwest, east, etc.) with set affiliation agreements in place and go from there. If the NHL deems it not important, then minor league hockey is going to continue to toil away in obscurity, with new teams and leagues coming and going every couple of years as it has for all of time. Teams folding and leagues being in hot water or popping up is nothing new. I think in some regards, the NHL has begun doing this, but it either needs to be full on or not done at all, it can't be a toes in the water thing.

To address another voiced idea, there's no way there can just be the one minor league, as someone suggested. The whole purpose to minor league hockey is to get these guys playing and developing talent, so if you expand AHL rosters and have 12 guys scratched each night, its doing to be a development nightmare.
 

PCSPounder

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Apr 12, 2012
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Stabilizing minor league hockey will require a similar effort. It may take a herculean effort for cities to build up the necessary infrastructure, and it may require a joint venture with other sports (basketball or indoor football), but it can be done.

American cities still understood that baseball kind of = national pastime, if no longer national passion. I think now that most of these cities are finding that ballpark to be more of a burden than they expected (minor league baseball is slipping again; the falling number of new ballparks AND creative accounting prop up the attendance numbers).

Things were booming less than two decades ago for minor pro hockey. Many of the teams creating the boom were in new buildings. Teams collapsed almost as quickly as they sprung up. In short, we'd already done this and it didn't work.

Ballparks can have cute little features (some of which are handy) because baseball's pace lends itself to constant diversion. I'm not the only soccer fan who gets into hockey because our attention spans are built a little better. ;)

There's more. Not yet.
 

ripham23232

Registered User
Nov 6, 2013
69
8
Grand Rapids, Michigan
American cities still understood that baseball kind of = national pastime, if no longer national passion. I think now that most of these cities are finding that ballpark to be more of a burden than they expected (minor league baseball is slipping again; the falling number of new ballparks AND creative accounting prop up the attendance numbers).

There's no doubt that there is some creative accounting in terms of producing attendance numbers, I can't debate that. I also don't think that's anything new though. I don't have set numbers at the moment, but MiLB has been fairly steady over the past ten years with some ups and downs from year to year. Basically been between 41 and 43 million total. Went up actually from 2012 to 2013 by a quarter million. I don't think counting the falling number of new ballparks is an accurate way to measure interest. The more that built new parks in previous years means there is less to build now, if that makes sense. Also, a number of parks undergo renovations on a yearly basis that keeps them up to date and extends usage/life of the park.

An interesting report that discusses many of the topics we have discussed in this thread is published by NumberTamer and discussed in pages 73-91 in the 2013 Minor League Attendance Analysis. I'll link to it, and if not allowed, mods please remove.

http://numbertamer.com/files/2013_Minor_League_Analysis.pdf
 

PCSPounder

Stadium Groupie
Apr 12, 2012
2,877
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There's no doubt that there is some creative accounting in terms of producing attendance numbers, I can't debate that. I also don't think that's anything new though. I don't have set numbers at the moment, but MiLB has been fairly steady over the past ten years with some ups and downs from year to year. Basically been between 41 and 43 million total. Went up actually from 2012 to 2013 by a quarter million. I don't think counting the falling number of new ballparks is an accurate way to measure interest. The more that built new parks in previous years means there is less to build now, if that makes sense. Also, a number of parks undergo renovations on a yearly basis that keeps them up to date and extends usage/life of the park.

An interesting report that discusses many of the topics we have discussed in this thread is published by NumberTamer and discussed in pages 73-91 in the 2013 Minor League Attendance Analysis. I'll link to it, and if not allowed, mods please remove.

http://numbertamer.com/files/2013_Minor_League_Analysis.pdf

Put it this way... how you know the numbers are good or not is, say...

...baseball returns to Portland in 2001. By the end of the season, the owners are trying to offload the team. They stick around a couple more years, the Pacific Coast League has to take the team over for a year and change, they groom an owner to take over, he tries to sell by the end of the year, and the eventual buyer tries to split the Beavers and Portland Timbers into separate stadiums, with the obvious outcome being the Timbers make the renovation and...

...after an aborted effort at the Memorial Coliseum site (right next to Rose Garden / Moda Center)...

...after a Portland neighborhood rejects using urban renewal money for the ballpark after having talks with the owner for two years...

...and after a Portland suburb tries and fails to overcome a private landowner's objections to a ballpark at a former cinema site...

...the Beavers leave town for Tucson, which had lost a team only 3 years prior.

In that process, a San Diego suburb was engaged (the Beavers were the Padres' affiliate), but that failed...

...Boise dipped their toes into the debate, but that failed...

...who knows how many other western cities were offered...

...and six years after the whole process began, a downtown El Paso stadium will begin hosting the Chihuahuas this year.

If attendance were truly maintaining, that process would have a few suitors. Of course, the real sales time took place when the economy nosedived. I know. Of course, sports are supposed to be downturn-resistant.

Meanwhile, Fresno built a ballpark and is basically continuing to bail out the losses.

Meanwhile, Memphis received a privately built ballpark, it was the envy of the league, but 10 years on the stadium went into forebearance as attendance dropped, and the city has bailed out the team by buying the ballpark.

Meanwhile, Tacoma got $30 million in public funds to renovate the stadium... or more specifically, install luxury suites, NOT change the old seating bowl, and REDUCE the capacity of the ballpark.

Cooper Stadium, the cited example in Columbus, has been replaced by a stadium with a smaller capacity.

There's more, but I don't want to rub this in.

***********************

You know, I can point to the ECHL Boise team. In the first few years, the owners (and their bought-and-paid-for radio talk show host) apparently lamented that they only built a 5,000-seat arena when they could probably have sold more tickets in a larger venue as part of a proposed convention center expansion. BTW, that's never happened, and the land is currently ticketed for the replacement ballpark that I've partially mentioned above (though the question of whether it should be more suitable to the current Short A team or a possible AAA team is still wide open). Over time, however, I have to believe they made the right call, and for other cities to really have a chance, they should build smaller than they plan to build. Boise's attendance has slowly leaked down (or, to a degree, they may have stopped puffing attendance so much... my last visit was a Saturday night in a pretty full arena), but I believe it would have happened faster if they'd built larger. Boise is also kind of unique from what I know: the only real concourse and all the concessions are inside the arena bowl (though you can buy tickets for tables in the upstairs sports bar area, and that's close to a top-down view), so you can kind of watch the game (or maybe get hit with a puck) while ordering your food. I can think of some offshoots of that format that I'd like to think could be done with private money.

Mostly, I shrug to read this. It's kind of painful. I'm not sure there's that many cities where hockey can really be staged. How do we think outside the box on this?
 

ripham23232

Registered User
Nov 6, 2013
69
8
Grand Rapids, Michigan
Put it this way... how you know the numbers are good or not is, say...

...baseball returns to Portland in 2001. By the end of the season, the owners are trying to offload the team. They stick around a couple more years, the Pacific Coast League has to take the team over for a year and change, they groom an owner to take over, he tries to sell by the end of the year, and the eventual buyer tries to split the Beavers and Portland Timbers into separate stadiums, with the obvious outcome being the Timbers make the renovation and...

...after an aborted effort at the Memorial Coliseum site (right next to Rose Garden / Moda Center)...

...after a Portland neighborhood rejects using urban renewal money for the ballpark after having talks with the owner for two years...

...and after a Portland suburb tries and fails to overcome a private landowner's objections to a ballpark at a former cinema site...

...the Beavers leave town for Tucson, which had lost a team only 3 years prior.

In that process, a San Diego suburb was engaged (the Beavers were the Padres' affiliate), but that failed...

...Boise dipped their toes into the debate, but that failed...

...who knows how many other western cities were offered...

...and six years after the whole process began, a downtown El Paso stadium will begin hosting the Chihuahuas this year.

If attendance were truly maintaining, that process would have a few suitors. Of course, the real sales time took place when the economy nosedived. I know. Of course, sports are supposed to be downturn-resistant.

Meanwhile, Fresno built a ballpark and is basically continuing to bail out the losses.

Meanwhile, Memphis received a privately built ballpark, it was the envy of the league, but 10 years on the stadium went into forebearance as attendance dropped, and the city has bailed out the team by buying the ballpark.

Meanwhile, Tacoma got $30 million in public funds to renovate the stadium... or more specifically, install luxury suites, NOT change the old seating bowl, and REDUCE the capacity of the ballpark.

Cooper Stadium, the cited example in Columbus, has been replaced by a stadium with a smaller capacity.

There's more, but I don't want to rub this in.

***********************

Picking 3 situations where a team has moved or changed something regarding to capacity is not an indicator that a minor league sport is failing. You point out Portland, I'll point out Dayton. You point out Fresno, I'll point out Frisco. Tacoma, meet Indianapolis. We can go back and forth here. Minor League sports is the same as any other business, some will succeed handsomely, some will fail. When the failures happen, somebody thinks they have a solution and gives it another shot. When a guy wants to sell, it isn't always a bailing water scenario. But as a whole, minor league baseball has grown significantly in the past 30 years, and has maintained that level attendance wise over the past decade. Fan interest in the past 5-6 years is at an all-time high, thanks to things such as Moneyball, Baseball America, Baseball Prospectus and the like that have people more glued in than ever to the farm system and prospects. It sounds like to me, since a group in Portland tried, a group outside Portland tried, a group in San Diego tried, a group in Tucson tried, and now a group in El Paso is trying, that the process did have a few suitors. Five in fact. There's a lot more to this Portland pie than the fact the owners wanted out and had a hard time finding suitors as well. In my brief research, it appears the city wasn't overly serious about finding a venue for the baseball team after making their stadium soccer specific. That said, because a city government not wanting to proceed with a ballpark, doesn't mean minor league baseball is a failure.

With all that said, I think we're disagreeing to agree if that makes sense. The underlying issue here is that the continual upheaval of minor league teams and leagues does not lend itself to a strong business model. To me, it goes back to my point of the NHL needing to lead the charge. MLB is so heavily involved with MiLB at this point, its nearly impossible to separate the two. Until the NHL becomes truly invested in a "real" minor league system, its going to continue to be throwing things at the wall to see if they stick. My thoughts are the NHL is doing just fine with the current development system in place, so it will remain status quo.

As an aside, since you brought up Fresno and bailing losses on the ballpark: Stadiums aren't moneymakers. That's why owners try to minimize their own investment and let taxpayers foot the bill. No one should build a stadium and expect cash to pour in on that investment alone.
 

PCSPounder

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Apr 12, 2012
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Picking 3 situations where a team has moved or changed something regarding to capacity is not an indicator that a minor league sport is failing.

I said slipping, not failing. The problem to me is less the sport and more the likelihood of the next town building an arena for hockey. Truth is, the minor model as we know it is slipping in ALL sports save American soccer (and that's tenuous IMO).

To me, it goes back to my point of the NHL needing to lead the charge. MLB is so heavily involved with MiLB at this point, its nearly impossible to separate the two. Until the NHL becomes truly invested in a "real" minor league system, its going to continue to be throwing things at the wall to see if they stick. My thoughts are the NHL is doing just fine with the current development system in place, so it will remain status quo.

You get the owners you get instead of the owners you want. I frankly don't think the NHL could sustain a AA level on their income and their model, even after the new Rogers $$ slides in. They might be able to afford the AHL now... without asking for kickbacks from cities.

As an aside, since you brought up Fresno and bailing losses on the ballpark: Stadiums aren't moneymakers. That's why owners try to minimize their own investment and let taxpayers foot the bill. No one should build a stadium and expect cash to pour in on that investment alone.

The city of Fresno built that stadium and the taxpayers get worse news every time it comes up. That's also tied to the Selland fiasco. Again, I can make that a comment on baseball, but in terms of hockey, these kinds of events affect the whole gig. It makes taxpayers less likely to vote for what some of us are begging to see happen.
 

ripham23232

Registered User
Nov 6, 2013
69
8
Grand Rapids, Michigan
The city of Fresno built that stadium and the taxpayers get worse news every time it comes up. That's also tied to the Selland fiasco. Again, I can make that a comment on baseball, but in terms of hockey, these kinds of events affect the whole gig. It makes taxpayers less likely to vote for what some of us are begging to see happen.

That's the idea I was thinking was in play here. I think we're starting to see that shift now that more and more people are catching on to the play of sports owners shifting the costs of the ballpark to the taxpayers.

Like you said earlier, there needs to be some outside of the box ideas here on how to stabilize minor league hockey, but the greatest barrier in my mind is the fact that Joe Diehard Fan is the only one that really cares enough about minor league hockey.
 

tvboy11

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May 3, 2013
23
0
That's the idea I was thinking was in play here. I think we're starting to see that shift now that more and more people are catching on to the play of sports owners shifting the costs of the ballpark to the taxpayers.

Boise's hockey venue was mentioned earlier. I recall reading that the town's minor-league baseball team got caught up in something like this a couple years ago where the team said they'd have to explore moving if they didn't get a new park. The taxpayers essentially replied with, "don't let the door hit you on the way out."
 

Prussian_Blue

Registered User
Apr 9, 2003
7,737
1
futurenotes.blogspot.com
Honestly, what I think needs to happen if minor league hockey is to be taken seriously is the same thing that happened with minor league baseball starting in the late 80's. Major League Baseball committed fully to building the minors as a ladder to the majors, invested in the lower levels of the sport and have helped groom minor league baseball into what it is now. It may be on the NHL at this point to give the sport some stability in that regard. We can all agree the AHL is doing ok, and undoubtedly serves as the AAA league. If AA is what they want, then put 30 teams across the country in smaller, regional based leagues as someone mentioned. (California league, Midwest, east, etc.) with set affiliation agreements in place and go from there. If the NHL deems it not important, then minor league hockey is going to continue to toil away in obscurity, with new teams and leagues coming and going every couple of years as it has for all of time. Teams folding and leagues being in hot water or popping up is nothing new. I think in some regards, the NHL has begun doing this, but it either needs to be full on or not done at all, it can't be a toes in the water thing.

To address another voiced idea, there's no way there can just be the one minor league, as someone suggested. The whole purpose to minor league hockey is to get these guys playing and developing talent, so if you expand AHL rosters and have 12 guys scratched each night, its doing to be a development nightmare.

:handclap: :handclap: :handclap:

Minor league baseball in the 1970s was nearly dead; attendance was plummeting nationwide, instability ruled, teams were living check-to-check from affiliation money, and fan interest wasn't there.

Everything changed when Columbus got AAA baseball back after six years out. Cooper Stadium underwent a modernizing renovation that turned it into a small version of an MLB stadium, and it triggered a resurgence. It had skyboxes, new AstroTurf, and a new scoreboard. Most important, it had a view of the Columbus skyline over the fence in left-center. Other cities would follow suit, turning their local teams into a point of civic pride instead of just something to do for a night out. This brought local businesses and businessmen and philanthropists on board, bringing stability and a resurgence of baseball.

Stabilizing minor league hockey will require a similar effort. It may take a herculean effort for cities to build up the necessary infrastructure, and it may require a joint venture with other sports (basketball or indoor football), but it can be done.

:handclap: :handclap: :handclap:

Kudos to both of you; I think you've both hit the nail right on the head.

Three regional AA leagues -- Western League, Midwest League, and Eastern League. Ten teams each, with affiliations. 72 game balanced schedule in each (8 games vs. every other team in the league).

It's time to bring order out of this chaos...
 

PCSPounder

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Apr 12, 2012
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Boise's hockey venue was mentioned earlier. I recall reading that the town's minor-league baseball team got caught up in something like this a couple years ago where the team said they'd have to explore moving if they didn't get a new park. The taxpayers essentially replied with, "don't let the door hit you on the way out."

The time Boise should have hit on the ballpark was 20 years ago. They'd get over 100% capacity (plenty of standing room, + sometimes they'd let people stand along the outfield wall), there were sponsors oozing from every crevasse, and it was the clear thing to do in the summer if you weren't into fishing in Idaho.

In the space of 2/3 years:
- Boise State moved from I-AA (FCS) to I-A (FBS).
- The downtown hotel/hockey arena was built and a hockey team established.
- The Idaho Center was built in Nampa as an indoor home for the Snake River Stampede AND a CBA basketball team.
- Roaring Springs was built. (The one sports radio host in Boise at the time blames this more than anything else)
- The California Angels went another direction and started fielding kids out of high school instead of kids out of college. (BTW, that strategy eventually made the big team more competitive)

Poof went the crowds. By the time I started turning my attention back towards Portland, the whole bleacher section was pulled, they weren't filling the other seats, it got kind of dead.

I actually run with the theory that the current Boise State AD acts to own the town, making a new ballpark less likely to happen. Their obvious successes don't hurt in that quest. They kind of keep the Steelheads at arm's length, too.
 

Steelhead16

Registered User
Jan 29, 2005
1,610
3
Boise, ID
The time Boise should have hit on the ballpark was 20 years ago. They'd get over 100% capacity (plenty of standing room, + sometimes they'd let people stand along the outfield wall), there were sponsors oozing from every crevasse, and it was the clear thing to do in the summer if you weren't into fishing in Idaho.

In the space of 2/3 years:
- Boise State moved from I-AA (FCS) to I-A (FBS).
- The downtown hotel/hockey arena was built and a hockey team established.
- The Idaho Center was built in Nampa as an indoor home for the Snake River Stampede AND a CBA basketball team.
- Roaring Springs was built. (The one sports radio host in Boise at the time blames this more than anything else)
- The California Angels went another direction and started fielding kids out of high school instead of kids out of college. (BTW, that strategy eventually made the big team more competitive)

Poof went the crowds. By the time I started turning my attention back towards Portland, the whole bleacher section was pulled, they weren't filling the other seats, it got kind of dead.

I actually run with the theory that the current Boise State AD acts to own the town, making a new ballpark less likely to happen. Their obvious successes don't hurt in that quest. They kind of keep the Steelheads at arm's length, too.

Boise State has never done anything as far as acknowledging anything else in town besides Boise State Football. They don't need to. Nothing else in town can even come close to knocking them off the mountain. The Steelheads do next to nothing in the way of marketing and don't seem to care if anyone shows up. The days of the standing room only crowds are long gone. The Hawks (baseball) are a short season A league team for the Cubs. The only local tie to the Cubs is Bill Buckner who has lived here for years and only a couple years ago began to work for the Hawks. It's basically glorified high school ball. They actually draw fairly well for what the stadium will hold. It's old and awful and couldn't support anything more than what it has. Both the Angels and Cubs have had murmers of AA or AAA teams coming here if a new stadium is built. 3 or 4 years ago Meridian (next door city) had come up with plans for a baseball stadium, but that went nowhere. Last couple of years a downtown stadium/arena proposal was floating around. There was talk of it needing guarantees of the Cubs promising a AAA team and the Steelheads and Stampede (NBA D-League) moving into the arena. That talk died over a year ago.
There are plenty of hockey fans in town if the Steelheads cared to invite them in but they don't. There are two adult leagues in town with a fair number of teams at 4 levels. The youth league has both house and travel teams at every level and there is also high school hockey as well. Boise State has a club team and there is a Tier III Junior A team as well.
As much as I would love to see a AAA baseball team here I am torn as to whether it would thrive or not. It's a strange sports town. There are so many transplants here (including myself) from bigger cities. It seems like most people are "brainwashed" into thinking that there are only major league sports in the world because that is what there is where they are from. When they get here Boise State football is the only thing they have heard of before they get here and attach themselves to that. It's very social and the tailgating is huge. People will try something else but the sport alone won't keep them. The product needs to have more to keep their interest, especially if it is a sport that they don't know much about. I think the only reason the Steelheads have survived this long is the design of the arena. As you mentioned, the concourse is right in the middle of the action. People mill around there and hang out and talk and drink and barely watch the game. It is a place to meet out of the cold outside. On most nights probably 20% of the crowd never sits in a seat. They just tailgate inside.
I think minor league teams can survive in major league cities but it needs to be an event and not just a game. Minor league teams REALLY need to KNOW who their customers are and what will keep them coming back. Many of them get caught by looking at ticket buyers as fans and not as what they really are......customers.
 

sharksohnoes!

whatisdeadmayneverdie
Mar 9, 2006
3,886
8
Palo Alto, CA
Wow. This thread has really derailed...

The Stockton Thunder are having a Bulls Appreciation Night in a few weeks.

http://stocktonthunder.com/sfbulls/

Very classy move by the Thunder organization to have us out there. Especially after those *******s in Bakersfield basically rubbed it in out faces with their "RIP Bulls" night. The event in Stockton is actually being put together by the Bulls' former ticket manager. He was hired by the Thunder after being let go by the Bulls. Really happy for him because he is a great guy.
 

easternrefugee

Registered User
Jun 24, 2013
296
0
Bakersfield, CA
Wow. This thread has really derailed...

The Stockton Thunder are having a Bulls Appreciation Night in a few weeks.

http://stocktonthunder.com/sfbulls/

Very classy move by the Thunder organization to have us out there. Especially after those *******s in Bakersfield basically rubbed it in out faces with their "RIP Bulls" night. The event in Stockton is actually being put together by the Bulls' former ticket manager. He was hired by the Thunder after being let go by the Bulls. Really happy for him because he is a great guy.

Are you serious??? Bako is VERY well known for their prmotions. EVERY year we end up on ESPN and various other news stations for the out of the box promos like:

1. toilet paper rolls with the Fresno Falcons on it
2. toilet bowl plungers with Stockton Thunder logo on them
3. Stockton Bankrupcy night

and the list goes on and on.....In short, it is a way of getting people into the seats. Maybe had SF had Bako's originality they would still be in business
 

adsfan

#164303
May 31, 2008
12,755
3,792
Milwaukee
I'd rather have been a 28 year old NHL rookie at $550,000 minimum:laugh:

Ruth's NHL deal had expired (roughly $130,00 per year) and he was on an AHL deal this season.

Agreed. He wasn't going to go to the NHL.

How are Bitetto and Liambas looking?

Bitetto is one of the top scorers for Milwaukee (3rd). Pretty good for a D-man.

Liambas is rounding out his game, 2g 4A in 34 games. Great forechecker!
 

paul-laus

Registered User
Jun 20, 2007
474
65
If the ECHL were a ten-team league, with four teams being owned by just two ownership groups and another being run covertly by the league, then more people would likely express cynicism about the ECHL's future as well. Yes, the E has some weak franchises that have been/will be going by the wayside. However, when you look at the big picture, the CHL is currently in a much more precarious position.

Furthermore, if you look at the teams who have recently jumped from the CHL to ECHL (Colorado, Evansville, Fort Wayne) it paints a vivid picture of reality. Rapid City and Allen are no dummies. They wanted to free themselves of the CHL this past summer, but were bound by legal restrictions. If those contracts didn't exist, you can bet the Rush and the Americans would already be in the ECHL this season.

The ECHL is far from perfect. It is also far from being extinct. The same cannot be said of the CHL.

Alright. Well to be fair, all I've heard from McKenna for years now is how the ECHL is not going to rush into markets without doing their due diligence and doing their homework first and are only looking at markets with solid ownership, a legitimate building to play in, and the potential for a fan base. Well using that logic, the ECHL completely missed the mark with San Francisco when it folds midseason a year and a half in. Its embarrassing how predictable this was.

The truth is, and I think anyone can read between the lines here, the ECHL assumed that they were gonna poach a fair amount of Sharks fans with affordable minor pro hockey when the NHL shut down due to the labor impasse. The CHL tried to do the same with the Cuthroats in the Denver area with the Avalanche not playing. It was obvious that when the NHL started up again that attendance would plummet for these teams.

There was no forethought by either league here and they both looked at the short-term benefits of hyping new markets and the status and prestige that goes along with expanding. Now they both look foolish and by no means am I downplaying how much of a tire-fire the CHL is, but rather am surprised at how nobody talks about how ridiculous he ECHL looks when folding their third franchise in five seasons in the middle of a season.....
 

tvboy11

Registered User
May 3, 2013
23
0
There are plenty of hockey fans in town if the Steelheads cared to invite them in but they don't. There are two adult leagues in town with a fair number of teams at 4 levels. The youth league has both house and travel teams at every level and there is also high school hockey as well. Boise State has a club team and there is a Tier III Junior A team as well.

I get what you're saying but, especially with the youth teams, the problem is that the parents are spending their money on their kids' team. That becomes the source of entertainment. Instead of season tickets, it becomes, "we'll catch a game here and there when we can" because the bulk of their investment - not only cash, but time - is on their children. They have their own games to worry about.

I try to catch a Steelheads game if business brings me to town. Was there a few weeks ago and it was packed. Great crowd. Was there last February for a mid-week game and it was pretty much exactly what you'd expect for a mid-week game. From what I hear, the D-League team would absolutely kill to draw a bad Steelheads crowd (in terms of actual behinds-in-seats).

As PCS laid out, the town/market seems to have changed pretty drastically. The newspaper is down to four pages and three of them are pretty much nothing but Boise State football (no matter the season). The "free" marketing and advertising well has completely dried up and traditional ads just don't have the bang that they had 10-15 years ago.
 

PCSPounder

Stadium Groupie
Apr 12, 2012
2,877
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The Outskirts of Nutria Nanny
I get what you're saying but, especially with the youth teams, the problem is that the parents are spending their money on their kids' team. That becomes the source of entertainment. Instead of season tickets, it becomes, "we'll catch a game here and there when we can" because the bulk of their investment - not only cash, but time - is on their children. They have their own games to worry about.

While there's a massive "I agree" in the answer, I'll go one better. Before ESPN started telling Boise State when to schedule football games, BSU did everything it could to avoid timing conflicts... with youth soccer. Also with the hunters. Games in September and October were always in the evening. Only in November would BSU play in the afternoon. BTW, after the BCS games subsided, ESPN tells BSU when to schedule games, and BSU fans complain of lack of sellouts. Well, you do have to add BCS-school pricing of tickets into that equation.

From what I hear, the D-League team would absolutely kill to draw a bad Steelheads crowd (in terms of actual behinds-in-seats).

You have understated this. With Boise, there is one advantage: strong segments of the business community keep the Steelheads from casting an eye elsewhere, and have kept the Stampede in town long past their sell-by date. I still can't help but think that the Portland Trail Blazers, who now own the Stampede, are likely considering the fairgrounds arena in Salem or even Memorial Coliseum in Portland for the Stampede.

As PCS laid out, the town/market seems to have changed pretty drastically. The newspaper is down to four pages and three of them are pretty much nothing but Boise State football (no matter the season). The "free" marketing and advertising well has completely dried up and traditional ads just don't have the bang that they had 10-15 years ago.

True... but I want to emphasize that this is happening EVERYWHERE. If I were an owner, it seems elementary to move advertising dollars from newspaper- and maybe radio- to television, but are my true fans more internet-savvy? If so, how do I reach them past the adblockers? In the pre-internet days, these weren't the easiest choices, but they were far more obvious then than they are now. Many TV stations don't even run sports segments on their news broadcasts anymore. Tagging a local ad on an ESPN broadcast more likely targets the fans of major sports who just aren't interested in season tickets. There's just no obvious answer here.
 

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