Eastside Hockey Manager - Part VIII

[JeffNYI]

What's hard to understand? Expansion is summer 2021 in real life. In game, it is either 2020 or not at all. So by not having it in 2020, you are removing Seattle from the game for any years past the first one, meaning you have a 31 team NHL from 2021 and on instead of a 32 teams one like in real life.

They’re computer programs.

They do what they’re told.. no more, no less..

So expansion can take place whenever the programming team wants.

 

[Treb]

They’re computer programs.

They do what they’re told.. no more, no less..

So expansion can take place whenever the programming team wants.

EHM has no expansion draft feature implemented.

The programming team is only Riz and he has more to worry about than implement that feature.

ECK is not part of SI and does his roster for free using tools developed by other non-paid fan of the game. He cannot change the code of the game.

 

[Dr Quincy]

nevermind

 

[JeffNYI]

EHM has no expansion draft feature implemented.

The programming team is only Riz and he has more to worry about than implement that feature.

ECK is not part of SI and does his roster for free using tools developed by other non-paid fan of the game. He cannot change the code of the game.

Don’t recall anyone asking for functionality for the expansion draft itself to be conducted in the SIM...

Thanks though.

 

[Treb]

Don’t recall anyone asking for functionality for the expansion draft itself to be conducted in the SIM...

Thanks though.

Well if you want realistic Seattle, that's what we would need.

The only other option to have Seattle in the game is add it to the database. Me (and many others as per the poll) like that option more than no Seattle ever.

Anyway, if @archibalduk can do the function he talked about earlier and coordinate with @xECK29x , we will have both so everyone will be happy.

 

[archibalduk]

This one is the most interesting to me, because of our support for these smaller leagues we have dedicated researchers from Turkey, Italy and other non-traditional market locations who are very passionate about growing the sport of hockey, even so much so as to reaching out directly to some of these hockey federations to acquire information to put into the database. We have added some leagues which have traditionally been in TBL (Italy, Spain, Israel, Turkey etc), these other smaller ones we will leave human-unplayable for now but will make sure these nations have teams so players are generated by the game and will help improve their IIHF scores as the sim goes on.

IMO if somebody has the time and desire to set up the playable league rules/structure and they are being actively researched then why not. I could be completely wrong, but I read the response as there being little interest in the smaller leagues rather than there being a strong aversion to the addition of smaller leagues (although perhaps there might be aversion due to fear of instability, but anyone can just opt out by not selecting that league when starting a new game).

 

[Treb]

IMO if somebody has the time and desire to set up the playable league rules/structure and they are being actively researched then why not. I could be completely wrong, but I read the response as there being little interest in the smaller leagues rather than there being a strong aversion to the addition of smaller leagues (although perhaps there might be aversion due to fear of instability, but anyone can just opt out by not selecting that league when starting a new game).

Indeed. I voted no because I wouldn't use them, but I have no problem with them being there.

 

[twentyTwenty]

With regards to additional lower leagues being added, I would rather the leagues that have already been included be made better and more realistic.

There are leagues where the format isn't correct like I think the Beneliga although it might be a different one I'd have to check which has incorrect number of games to be played , incorrect number of foreigners allowed etc

The Nihl leagues which allow non EU players to be signed when they shouldn't be as any player who requires a work permit would not get one in real life.

Most European leagues do not have basic iihf rules enabled such as hybrid icing or not being allowed to change after an icing call

I think all these, and more, need to be corrected before more new but possibly incorrect leagues are added

 

[Treb]

With regards to additional lower leagues being added, I would rather the leagues that have already been included be made better and more realistic.

There are leagues where the format isn't correct like I think the Beneliga which has incorrect number of games to be played , incorrect number of foreigners allowed etc

The Nihl leagues which allow non EU players to be signed when they shouldn't be as any player who requires a work permit would not get one in real life.

Most European leagues do not have basic iihf rules enabled such as hybrid icing or not being allowed to change after an icing call

I think all these, and more, need to be corrected before more new but possibly incorrect leagues are added

Have you brought those DB issues up to ECK before? He might not be aware of them.

 

[xECK29x]

They’re computer programs.

They do what they’re told.. no more, no less..

So expansion can take place whenever the programming team wants.

It doesn’t work like that at all...I reverse engineer malicious code for a living. We can’t “reengineer” the game. Even Riz can’t do it easily and he has the source code. To add an expansion draft, especially something in-sim, which uses a completely different database format, would require extensive re-writes of the game.

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

They’re computer programs.

They do what they’re told.. no more, no less..

So expansion can take place whenever the programming team wants.

there are so many possibilities with this game that just can’t be implemented manually like that.. Manual/Automatic Expansion or Relocation, draft pick conditions, trading conditions, future consideration options, contract structure. It is too tough to do for just one guy to do.

The only other option to have Seattle in the game is add it to the database. Me (and many others as per the poll) like that option more than no Seattle ever.

I used to be slightly against Fantasy Style DBs, but I’ve lightened my stance. Seattle is coming, whether people like it or not. Having them included a year early shouldn’t make a big difference IMO. Just play with a bigger DB so there will be equal opportunities for prospects to come up.

There are leagues where the format isn't correct like I think the Beneliga although it might be a different one I'd have to check which has incorrect number of games to be played , incorrect number of foreigners allowed etc

I think there is some difficulty implementing this. I’m unsure if EHM07 had this feature, but doesn’t the Asian leagues have an import option where they are only allowed 5 imports?

In every save I play, Kunlun Red Star starts out with the correct amount of players, but will then experience years of Chinese-only
rosters. It’s like the game doesn’t ‘apply’ and ‘try’ to get imports to play. I understand this isn’t real life, but even low 8-10 attribute players can at least play over 2-3 attribute ones.

I’m all for adding every league possible, but who is really going to play with the Swedish 5th tier over and over again? Might sound bad, but some leagues do deserve to be Non-Human playable.

 

[archibalduk]

With regards to additional lower leagues being added, I would rather the leagues that have already been included be made better and more realistic.

We need people to report these things as they're generally easy fixes. We don't know every league inside out and so we have to rely on people to tell us.

Could you list out the things that are currently incorrect?

The Nihl leagues which allow non EU players to be signed when they shouldn't be as any player who requires a work permit would not get one in real life.

The NIHL rules allow non-EU players to be signed. E.g. Max Birbraer who currently plays for Swindon, Sun Yin Ho for Lee Valley or Alex Roberts who played 2018/19 for Streatham.

 

[JeffNYI]

It doesn’t work like that at all...I reverse engineer malicious code for a living. We can’t “reengineer” the game. Even Riz can’t do it easily and he has the source code. To add an expansion draft, especially something in-sim, which uses a completely different database format, would require extensive re-writes of the game.

So we agree it can be done.

You started off saying that it couldn’t, sounding as though you disagreed with my pretty straightforward statement.

But then you ended the paragraph and brought it around to where we agree.

I think it’s a great point to end the discussion.

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

So we agree it can be done.

You started off saying that it couldn’t, sounding as though you disagreed with my pretty straightforward statement.

But then you ended the paragraph and brought it around to where we agree.

I think it’s a great point to end the discussion.

Not to get involved, but who’s going to rewrite the whole entire game just to appease this manual expansion idea/feature? That should be a feature in EHM2 (if it ever gets there)

 

[GloryDaze4877]

there are so many possibilities with this game that just can’t be implemented manually like that.. Manual/Automatic Expansion or Relocation, draft pick conditions, trading conditions, future consideration options, contract structure. It is too tough to do for just one guy to do.



I used to be slightly against Fantasy Style DBs, but I’ve lightened my stance. Seattle is coming, whether people like it or not. Having them included a year early shouldn’t make a big difference IMO. Just play with a bigger DB so there will be equal opportunities for prospects to come up.




I think there is some difficulty implementing this. I’m unsure if EHM07 had this feature, but doesn’t the Asian leagues have an import option where they are only allowed 5 imports?

In every save I play, Kunlun Red Star starts out with the correct amount of players, but will then experience years of Chinese-only
rosters. It’s like the game doesn’t ‘apply’ and ‘try’ to get imports to play. I understand this isn’t real life, but even low 8-10 attribute players can at least play over 2-3 attribute ones.

I’m all for adding every league possible, but who is really going to play with the Swedish 5th tier over and over again? Might sound bad, but some leagues do deserve to be Non-Human playable.

If you are playing in a league that has been around for a decade and have been making decisions on how to build your team based on an Expansion Draft at the end of 2021 and not 2020...it IS kind of a big difference. Now you would have to try to change gears and alter the composition of your team in a couple of months instead of having an entire offseason and regular season in which to get ready.

In addition to that, we try to get a GM to take over the expansion franchise that WANTS to do it, and be part of the process. If SEA gets forced into the game prematurely by a year that means we have to find a GM willing to take on the team now, or have to form a committee of some sort to ensure that the Expansion team gets built properly.

Last, but not least, it's just not realistic. Many of the people in our league are there because they want to have as close an experience to being a real GM as they can possibly get. Of course, there are some things we can't do, but we deal with those necessary evils. Introducing an Expansion team into the DB a year before they are supposed to be doesn't seem necessary at all.

 

[Treb]

If you are playing in a league that has been around for a decade and have been making decisions on how to build your team based on an Expansion Draft at the end of 2021 and not 2020...it IS kind of a big difference. Now you would have to try to change gears and alter the composition of your team in a couple of months instead of having an entire offseason and regular season in which to get ready.

In addition to that, we try to get a GM to take over the expansion franchise that WANTS to do it, and be part of the process. If SEA gets forced into the game prematurely by a year that means we have to find a GM willing to take on the team now, or have to form a committee of some sort to ensure that the Expansion team gets built properly.

Last, but not least, it's just not realistic. Many of the people in our league are there because they want to have as close an experience to being a real GM as they can possibly get. Of course, there are some things we can't do, but we deal with those necessary evils. Introducing an Expansion team into the DB a year before they are supposed to be doesn't seem necessary at all.

How does your league work? If it's ongoing, why do you need a new DB? Do you just make a new game when you change DB and make all the previous trades made in your league?

 

[archibalduk]

If you are playing in a league that has been around for a decade and have been making decisions on how to build your team based on an Expansion Draft at the end of 2021 and not 2020...it IS kind of a big difference. Now you would have to try to change gears and alter the composition of your team in a couple of months instead of having an entire offseason and regular season in which to get ready.

In addition to that, we try to get a GM to take over the expansion franchise that WANTS to do it, and be part of the process. If SEA gets forced into the game prematurely by a year that means we have to find a GM willing to take on the team now, or have to form a committee of some sort to ensure that the Expansion team gets built properly.

Last, but not least, it's just not realistic. Many of the people in our league are there because they want to have as close an experience to being a real GM as they can possibly get. Of course, there are some things we can't do, but we deal with those necessary evils. Introducing an Expansion team into the DB a year before they are supposed to be doesn't seem necessary at all.

Presumably you'd want to go through that same process next summer anyway?

Isn't the game limited to 30 or 31 human GMs anyway?

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

SEA gets forced into the game prematurely by a year that means we have to find a GM willing to take on the team now, or have to form a committee of some sort to ensure that the Expansion team gets built properly.

Say if Seattle gets added into your online league. Wouldn’t it be easier to just have the user just dive into the FA pool and fill the roster that way?

the first years FA pool is never anything to get into anyway.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Presumably you'd want to go through that same process next summer anyway?

Isn't the game limited to 30 or 31 human GMs anyway?

Limited to 30 human GMs. So, I don't know what this person is talking about. They have to be AI or edited out of an online league database.

 

[Beef Cake]

Yeah, so... there are leagues out there that have been running for many years on a calendar day basis using the TBL pack and now the xECK29x-led pack to create game results...

In those worlds there are no 36-team NHLs... there's a 31-team league for which the GMs who have invested years into their teams have structured their plans around Seattle arriving in those leagues at the correct time... saying "Oh hey we're gonna force you to do Seattle early" not only means have all expansion plans been tossed out the window but also finding a GM to go through the expansion draft..

I understand this may not be how 36-team leagues operate.. but there's another class of EHM user out there that enjoys as much realism as possible.. so this poll just made a number of heads turn in the SIM hockey world..

Lastly: "Not including Seattle is also unrealistic because that means it isn't there for 2021-2022."

That sounds like nonsense to me.. but I'm sure you understand what you're saying better than I do, so could you please elaborate?

What league are you playing in that creates a new sim whenever a DB drops?

 

[JeffNYI]

What league are you playing in that creates a new sim whenever a DB drops?

We call it “re-rates”..

Each year as TBL/xECK drop their DB file ... we take the players with thier updated real life ratings and yep, manually move each asset to their current team in our league and generate an updated league file to begin each season...

So each NHL/AHL player is rated annually by an independent third party (TBL/ECK) in our league..

The players’ growth in the SIM means nothing beyond the present season... because of the annual re-rates... one day in real life equals one day in the SIM...

We have daily calculated salary cap exactly matching the NHL’s (which we manage outside of the SIM yet fully enforce).. hell we even have a podcast...

Why? What league are you playing in that doesn’t have this stuff??

 

[Treb]

We call it “re-rates”..

Each year as TBL/xECK drop their DB file ... we take the players with thier updated real life ratings and yep, manually move each asset to their current team in our league and generate an updated league file to begin each season...

So each NHL/AHL player is rated annually by an independent third party (TBL/ECK) in our league..

The players’ growth in the SIM means nothing beyond the present season... because of the annual re-rates... one day in real life equals one day in the SIM...

We have daily calculated salary cap exactly matching the NHL’s (which we manage outside of the SIM yet fully enforce).. hell we even have a podcast...

Why? What league are you playing in that doesn’t have this stuff??

I know some league sim faster than real life and thus get months/years ahead the current time.

You could just delete Seattle and adjust schedule to 31 teams and voila, your problem is fixed. It's not gonna take a tremendous amount of time more than doing the adjusting you do. But of course, if the easy click from archi works, that's great for you and anyone that doesn't want Seattle now.

Of course, if ECK change his mind and delay Seattle to 2021 I don't mind. I just appreciate his work whatever he does (even though I think Montreal prospects are underrated ) and will play his DB regardless.

 

[twentyTwenty]

We need people to report these things as they're generally easy fixes. We don't know every league inside out and so we have to rely on people to tell us.

Could you list out the things that are currently incorrect?



The NIHL rules allow non-EU players to be signed. E.g. Max Birbraer who currently plays for Swindon, Sun Yin Ho for Lee Valley or Alex Roberts who played 2018/19 for Streatham.

Yep I'll try and go through them all again and make a list. There are also inconsistencies with how players are rated, for example Robert Dowd is given a 60CA yet someone like Victor Laz is given a 70CA, Ive watched Laz play recently and he is nowhere as good as Dowd, even if you forget seeing him and just look at each players stats its clear that Laz should not be rated higher than Dowd. But there seems to be no consistency in how players are rated across different leagues.

But you are not correct, as such, on the NIHL rules, Birbraer is married to a Brit and now has a British passport in addition to his other ones, the same with Roberts and Sun Yin they all have EU passports.

Check here http://www.icehockeyuk.co.uk/wp-con...-Ice-Hockey-UK-GBE-Requirements-2018-19-1.pdf that shows that work permits would only be given to EIHL teams, therefore anyone from a non eu country being signed for a league below that for any compensation would not be given one. Now obviously there would be exceptions to this i.e even if Sun Yin didnt have an EU passport he would probably still be able to play for Lee Valley as he probably isnt being compensated. But to make the game more realistic I do believe that 0 non eu players should be implemented. It would prevent the teams in all the NIHL leagues being filled with canadians with no eu passports as is what currently happens.

Ask this question on THF and im sure they would explain it the same way. If you go through the stats for these teams and look at anyone from outside the EU you will probably find they have a eu 2nd nationality like Philip Edgar, Tyler VanKleef, RJ Berra, Sean Scarborough, Thomas Stuart-Dant etc While Eliteprospects doesnt always list all the players nationalities, like Roberts, it does get 90% of them right.

I know it sounds like all Im doing is complaining and i guess I am, I know how much work there is to be done with editing a database like this that is also ever changing but im of the opinion that the database should be made much better before trying to add another 100 things in to it.
Ive offered in the past to contribute to a db (before ECK's DB cant remember who is was that was doing it) and i offered to basically help update all the lower leagues of europe that nobody was paying any attention to, instead i was asked to help update the USHL(which i wasnt really clued up on unlike the euro leagues) which had just been added as playable so therefore I didnt bother as the db wasnt going to be enjoyable for me.
I then started doing my own, I'm currently in the process of doing one for the 2019/2020 season whereby every team, player and competition is updated and edited which is a huge task and im still nowhere near done but i know once i complete it, it will be the most accurate and realistic DB even if it will be out of date.

 

[xECK29x]

Yep I'll try and go through them all again and make a list. There are also inconsistencies with how players are rated, for example Robert Dowd is given a 60CA yet someone like Victor Laz is given a 70CA, Ive watched Laz play recently and he is nowhere as good as Dowd, even if you forget seeing him and just look at each players stats its clear that Laz should not be rated higher than Dowd. But there seems to be no consistency in how players are rated across different leagues.

But you are not correct, as such, on the NIHL rules, Birbraer is married to a Brit and now has a British passport in addition to his other ones, the same with Roberts and Sun Yin they all have EU passports.

Check here http://www.icehockeyuk.co.uk/wp-con...-Ice-Hockey-UK-GBE-Requirements-2018-19-1.pdf that shows that work permits would only be given to EIHL teams, therefore anyone from a non eu country being signed for a league below that for any compensation would not be given one. Now obviously there would be exceptions to this i.e even if Sun Yin didnt have an EU passport he would probably still be able to play for Lee Valley as he probably isnt being compensated. But to make the game more realistic I do believe that 0 non eu players should be implemented. It would prevent the teams in all the NIHL leagues being filled with canadians with no eu passports as is what currently happens.

Ask this question on THF and im sure they would explain it the same way. If you go through the stats for these teams and look at anyone from outside the EU you will probably find they have a eu 2nd nationality like Philip Edgar, Tyler VanKleef, RJ Berra, Sean Scarborough, Thomas Stuart-Dant etc While Eliteprospects doesnt always list all the players nationalities, like Roberts, it does get 90% of them right.

I know it sounds like all Im doing is complaining and i guess I am, I know how much work there is to be done with editing a database like this that is also ever changing but im of the opinion that the database should be made much better before trying to add another 100 things in to it.
Ive offered in the past to contribute to a db (before ECK's DB cant remember who is was that was doing it) and i offered to basically help update all the lower leagues of europe that nobody was paying any attention to, instead i was asked to help update the USHL(which i wasnt really clued up on unlike the euro leagues) which had just been added as playable so therefore I didnt bother as the db wasnt going to be enjoyable for me.
I then started doing my own, I'm currently in the process of doing one for the 2019/2020 season whereby every team, player and competition is updated and edited which is a huge task and im still nowhere near done but i know once i complete it, it will be the most accurate and realistic DB even if it will be out of date.

If you are still interested in helping just send me a PM, you are welcome to work on whatever you are passionate about!

 

[Smirnov2Chistov]

I know it sounds like all Im doing is complaining and i guess I am, I know how much work there is to be done with editing a database like this that is also ever changing but im of the opinion that the database should be made much better before trying to add another 100 things in to it.
Ive offered in the past to contribute to a db (before ECK's DB cant remember who is was that was doing it) and i offered to basically help update all the lower leagues of europe that nobody was paying any attention to, instead i was asked to help update the USHL(which i wasnt really clued up on unlike the euro leagues) which had just been added as playable so therefore I didnt bother as the db wasnt going to be enjoyable for me.
I then started doing my own, I'm currently in the process of doing one for the 2019/2020 season whereby every team, player and competition is updated and edited which is a huge task and im still nowhere near done but i know once i complete it, it will be the most accurate and realistic DB even if it will be out of date.

I would love to help out on a task like this, even if it's with you 2020. Honestly! If someone can show me step by step how to do it, especially with how slow my job is, count me in.