Early thoughts on Babcock

[Jimmy Firecracker]

That's an amazing amount of love for a coach that coached the Leafs to last place in the NHL. There's a phenomenal lack of talent on this team as there was last year, and the year before but in the previous 2 years TO made some noise and at times looked like the playoffs were possible, never a chance with Babs.

The OP noted Babs' propensity to play plugs with talent which is like his insistence on playing Grabner with Kadri, which is both ridiculous and stupid, and this is going to grate on us in time.

TO is an older team whose experience and hustle hasn't resulted in a better team just a different one. Babs has a team of players on their last legs whose performance this year will determine whether or not they will be in the NHL next year, an obvious incentive for the players to play better and harder than they have in years.

Babs is a shiny new toy who's shelf life will start to decrease next year, people will start to expect the hustle to be there, always, while also expecting far better results. Better results are going to be hard to provide if TO ever does actually promote the youth.

Babs is not rookie friendly, TO needs a coach that's willing to play the youth and endure the learning curve. He never had to endure any kind of losing in Detroit and he'll always turn to experience over youth.

I give him 3 more years, it's far easier to institute structure into an aging lineup, an experienced lineup but losing for the sake of structure will get old quick.

Babcock hasn't coached a young developing team since his days with Spokane. Since then he's always coached to win, with development of younger players taking a back seat. His teams have always been veteran laden and rookie who did make the team were in their early-mid twenties and already disciplined enough that he could expect better of them.

What I'm getting at is that we haven't really got any idea as to how Babcock is going to coach the Leafs who will be a young, developing team. Sure you can talk about how he handled young players in Detroit but the circumstances are drastically different. He coached those Wings teams to be competitive and win in the present, that won't be the case for the Leafs for a couple of years at least.

 

[Pookie]

Amazing. Gives Clear instructions - gets clear results...

Ummm… "gets clear results?"

29th place?

 

[Le Cobra]

Ummm… "gets clear results?"

29th place?

As long as we improve from last season, I declare this season a victory.
We actually have something of a system in place and aren't leaving our goalies out to dry as often.

2014–15
record 30–44–8 68 pts
GF 211
GA 262

2015-16
record 20-27-10 50 pts (we only need to win 9 of the next 25 to match last season's and this is on a depleted roster
)
GF 140 (most likely will not beat last years total)
GA 172 (good chance of beating last season)

the true story is more than just numbers. It's about heart, hard work, and discipline. They didnt have this before Babcock. Now they have all three this season.

 

[Gary Nylund]

As long as we improve from last season, I declare this season a victory.
We actually have something of a system in place and aren't leaving our goalies out to dry as often.

2014–15
record 30–44–8 68 pts
GF 211
GA 262

2015-16
record 20-27-10 50 pts (we only need to win 9 of the next 25 to match last season's and this is on a depleted roster
)
GF 140 (most likely will not beat last years total)
GA 172 (good chance of beating last season)

the true story is more than just numbers. It's about heart, hard work, and discipline. They didnt have this before Babcock. Now they have all three this season.

'

Well put and 100% accurate. I really don't understand people who point to our record and say "but we're in last place, what's so great about Babcock". Just watch the games I guess, don't know what else to say.

 

[hobarth]

TO can't score and Grabner plays on Kadri line, Babs complains about TO's inability to score and Grabner continues to play with Kadri. I would think that if TO can't score the coach would take his head out of his ass and experiment.

Phanny was screwed up by constantly playing him with subgrade partners against the opposition's best, playing Rielly with Hunwick?

Not playing Rielly on the PP?

Continually playing a player as the 3rd line center that until last night hadn't scored?

Starting Arco as a 4th line center at the beginning of the year?

There's many issues with Babs that if he was just about anybody else we would be very disenchanted with.

It's up to the coach to inspire and direct while producing but inspiring and directing middlin' aged veterans pretty well any coach can do.

What we need to see from him is an affinity to grow youth like Corrado and Marincin not bench them for 3 months. We also need/needed him to present those same middlin' veterans in a bright light rather than banish them to the minors like Arco or bench them constantly like Boyes.

Babs' mantra is win when what we needed was a visionary laying a foundation for the future, winning should have been secondary to marketing and development. He's not alone in dropping the ball this season but he's definitely the poster boy for a lost season.

 

[PuckMagi]

Overall I like him.

The system that he implemented is a HUGE help. I feel that the defenders making a pass into the center of the ice rather than chipping it up the board to clear the zone is working well.

However, I am pretty frustrated with his line combos and his choice of players. For example, he had Grabner playing on the first line for a long time even though he probably should have just been cut. It's hard to know if this is really his best effort, or if he is just showcasing some of our trade bait. It seems as if he's trying to tank which is frustrating. If he's actually trying his best to win every game, then I would be very concerned. Using Froese instead of Arcobello is also highly questionable and doesn't really make any sense any way you look at it.

edit: oh, and he's always putting random 4th liners on the PP which is really frustrating. He was also going with one defender on the PP which I don't think was a good decision considering we had Gardiner, Rielly, and Phaneuf who are all good on the PP.

 

[Babcocks Marner]

Ummm… "gets clear results?"

29th place?

Yea well, just take a look at our current roster.... really, enough said.

We are hanging in with teams that are better than us at every position, yet we keep pace.

 

[So Truculent]

His credibility and track record has shut up the media for once.

Biggest thing for me, because they know he ain't going anywhere anytime soon.

 

[hobarth]

Yea well, just take a look at our current roster.... really, enough said.

We are hanging in with teams that are better than us at every position, yet we keep pace.

TO is the worst team in the league so how do you figure we're hanging in there?

TO is worse than it was last year and needs 19 points in the last 25 games to top last years record, it ain't gonna happen. The worst part of this TO got rid of the worst players that ever lived, the most overpaid, bad, bad bad human beings yet the team continues to get worse.

 

[So Truculent]

TO is the worst team in the league so how do you figure we're hanging in there?

TO is worse than it was last year and needs 19 points in the last 25 games to top last years record, it ain't gonna happen. The worst part of this TO got rid of the worst players that ever lived, the most overpaid, bad, bad bad human beings yet the team continues to get worse.

you must not be aware of what is going on with this franchise if you don't understand why we are bad

 

[Babcocks Marner]

TO is the worst team in the league so how do you figure we're hanging in there?

TO is worse than it was last year and needs 19 points in the last 25 games to top last years record, it ain't gonna happen. The worst part of this TO got rid of the worst players that ever lived, the most overpaid, bad, bad bad human beings yet the team continues to get worse.

Why? we are on pace to beat it. Without Kessel, and now Phaneuf.

We are hanging in with the likes of Edmonton, Buffalo, Winnipeg, Calgary, Vancouver....

Are you telling me Toronto's roster on paper should be competing with those teams?

Who is our McDavid, Hall, O'Reilly, Eichel, Reinhart, etc, etc, etc. ??

We should be so far dead last it's not even funny. The only thing keeping us a float with NHL teams is Babcock. This roster is a joke. We are still winning games, and bringing games to OT while icing a 35mil cap team with injuries.

 

[eddieO]

I don't want to say how i know this but Babcock apparently negotiated exclusive use on the MLSE private jet on top of his salary (not sure about the cap rate). He flies his family around quite a bit privately. Bernier thinks he'll be traded next year and doesn't think Babcock likes him too much. Nothing ground breaking here, just some info I found out that's outside the normal banter.

Most players on the team have access to the private jet. Babcock isn't an exception.

 

[hobarth]

Why? we are on pace to beat it. Without Kessel, and now Phaneuf.

We are hanging in with the likes of Edmonton, Buffalo, Winnipeg, Calgary, Vancouver....

Are you telling me Toronto's roster on paper should be competing with those teams?

Who is our McDavid, Hall, O'Reilly, Eichel, Reinhart, etc, etc, etc. ??

We should be so far dead last it's not even funny. The only thing keeping us a float with NHL teams is Babcock. This roster is a joke. We are still winning games, and bringing games to OT while icing a 35mil cap team with injuries.

On paper this roster should be better than last year, TO got rid of Phanny and according to most he was horrible and it got rid of the cancerous Kessel, so additions by subtraction.

We replaced the absolute worst coach that ever lived with supposedly the best, the most expensive.

The team became older, wiser and more experienced with the UFA signings.

Somehow thru all of these improvements the team is tied for last, I don't think teams need to tank to improve, I think they need to succeed or show improvement.

We know that hanging at the bottom of the league for any length of time isn't an automatic way to improve, improving the roster and team culture is a better, faster way to improve. Supposedly those conditions have been met but the team gets worse.

 

[TankNationTillDeath]

On paper this roster should be better than last year, TO got rid of Phanny and according to most he was horrible and it got rid of the cancerous Kessel, so additions by subtraction.

We replaced the absolute worst coach that ever lived with supposedly the best, the most expensive.

The team became older, wiser and more experienced with the UFA signings.

Somehow thru all of these improvements the team is tied for last, I don't think teams need to tank to improve, I think they need to succeed or show improvement.

We know that hanging at the bottom of the league for any length of time isn't an automatic way to improve, improving the roster and team culture is a better, faster way to improve. Supposedly those conditions have been met but the team gets worse.

no, no, no, no and no.

Please, we hated Phil Kessel because of his contract, but he was a guy that we could not and did not replace. There is no addition by subtraction with a guy like that. You cannot try and simplify things in that manner either. While we get worse, our competition gets stronger, trust me, 50% of teams in our division/conference are not in rebuild mode, in fact, most try to make playoffs; with that said, it is natural each year for competition of a rebuilding team to get better. Also keep in mind our competition all had much deeper depth pools for a decade, and only in the past 3 seasons has our depth caught up/surpassed, but they are still in the AHL, minus Rielly. The only way in which we are supposed to actually become a contender is when our depth pool comes of age, if at the point Nylander/Marner and fruits of our labour (or lackthereof) don't produce, then you may say we are failing expectation.

 

[Pookie]

the true story is more than just numbers. It's about heart, hard work, and discipline. They didnt have this before Babcock. Now they have all three this season.

Well, I think there is a chapter or two in here about 23 players on expiring contracts over the next 2 seasons don't you?

One would hope that players playing to extend their careers would demonstrate hard work, discipline.

Sorry Babs is the best. Didn't have a thing to do with that did it? All Babs. All the time.

 

[Pookie]

Yea well, just take a look at our current roster.... really, enough said.

We are hanging in with teams that are better than us at every position, yet we keep pace.

Amazing. The team that started the season and was predicted to finish bottom 5 is actually bottom 2.

Where would we have been without Babcock? … or Babs as he likes to be called by the people that don't know him. (along with Stammer, Naz, Shanny)

 

[Babcocks Marner]

On paper this roster should be better than last year, TO got rid of Phanny and according to most he was horrible and it got rid of the cancerous Kessel, so additions by subtraction.

We replaced the absolute worst coach that ever lived with supposedly the best, the most expensive.

The team became older, wiser and more experienced with the UFA signings.

Somehow thru all of these improvements the team is tied for last, I don't think teams need to tank to improve, I think they need to succeed or show improvement.

We know that hanging at the bottom of the league for any length of time isn't an automatic way to improve, improving the roster and team culture is a better, faster way to improve. Supposedly those conditions have been met but the team gets worse.

Dion was our 3rd best DMan..... it's pretty hard to argue that at the very least, you could argue #2. I am happy we moved him, only because of contract... I liked him personally.

Cancer or not, I don't have such knowledge, only speculation. I do speculate Phil was cancerous in at least some aspects. Either way, not the point.... Phil was our best player regardless, and easily our best player, by a margin.

I have to admit, I 100% agree with Phil being addition by subtraction, but not for this year... that addition comes with time... seemingly faster than expected.

This roster is terrible. We have maybe 5-6 decent players, on an entire roster. Some are disappointments, that is a fact.

When do you see the Leafs give up now? a complete normalcy last year. Philly goes up 3-1, Leafs comes back 4-3.... lose in OT... a common theme without the skill.

Once this team inserts the skill they have cooking, I expect to slowly improve. I don't believe we are going to be good next year, Nyander, Stamkos, w.e..... we will still be a horrible team, the pain is here. In 2-4 years, we will start to see the true goal of the team....

 

[Clark4Ever]

Amazing. The team that started the season and was predicted to finish bottom 5 is actually bottom 2.

Where would we have been without Babcock? … or Babs as he likes to be called by the people that don't know him. (along with Stammer, Naz, Shanny)

Just out of curiosity, do you watch the games, or just look at the boxscore?

There is far more thought required to gauge Babcock's impact than simply looking at our record.

 

[Babcocks Marner]

Amazing. The team that started the season and was predicted to finish bottom 5 is actually bottom 2.

Where would we have been without Babcock? … or Babs as he likes to be called by the people that don't know him. (along with Stammer, Naz, Shanny)

With all the injuries, that is not quite fair.

Like I said, we were icing a team with a 35mil cap hit, and still win games and take games to OT... That says something. We don't have any stars at all, what other team (maybe Columbus) could say that?

Compare our top 6 to any other top 6 in the bottom 7..... it's not even close, again, except maybe Columbus.

I sure as hell wasn't expecting much from this team, and giving all that has happened, I am surprised we even within 5 points of 5-6th last.

This team doesn't give up anymore...... you can't argue something has changed. We are a worse team on paper, and putting up the same amount of points. Slightly, but we are on pace for 71, and 68 last year..... No Kessel.

 

[Once]

TO is worse than it was last year and needs 19 points in the last 25 games to top last years record, it ain't gonna happen. The worst part of this TO got rid of the worst players that ever lived, the most overpaid, bad, bad bad human beings yet the team continues to get worse.

You are a hater. What did you expect out of a glorified AHL team? The quote you responded to is right. We are competitive against teams that are far better than us. Fast forward 3 years when we have some homegrown talent. What does that leave us with?

 

[Pookie]

Just out of curiosity, do you watch the games, or just look at the boxscore?

There is far more thought required to gauge Babcock's impact than simply looking at our record.

Right.

Yeah, no, I just look at the boxscore. In fact, I don't even look at that… just the radio highlights on the way to work. No that's not true. I picked up "hockey for dummies" book a few months ago… actually that's not true… most of my hockey experience comes from a Wayne Gretzky table top hockey game that I picked up at a garage sale in the summer…. actually, that's not entirely true. I guess most of my hockey experience comes from hitting a rock with a stick back when I was 3… I guess that's also where I got my golf knowledge from…

Or hey, maybe I've looked at a variety of opinions on the matter of coaching and impact on the game and have developed an opinion consistent with statisticians who have studied the issue to conclude that the impact of a coach has more to do with Public Relations than results. Only a handful of coaches in any sport have had an impact on the results beyond what was expected.

Babcock… sorry, didn't mean to offend your friend… Babs… has had no impact on the expected result of this team. He might one day. But if better results come with more talent, then you've have just proven the conclusion of the academics who have researched the issue. Talent dictates results. Not coaching… for the most part.

Hey, um… what's icing?

 

[Pookie]

With all the injuries, that is not quite fair.

Like I said, we were icing a team with a 35mil cap hit, and still win games and take games to OT... That says something. We don't have any stars at all, what other team (maybe Columbus) could say that?

Compare our top 6 to any other top 6 in the bottom 7..... it's not even close, again, except maybe Columbus.

I sure as hell wasn't expecting much from this team, and giving all that has happened, I am surprised we even within 5 points of 5-6th last.

This team doesn't give up anymore...... you can't argue something has changed. We are a worse team on paper, and putting up the same amount of points. Slightly, but we are on pace for 71, and 68 last year..... No Kessel.

So you weren't expecting much from the team… and they have delivered a 29th place finish so far… and you are surprised?

 

[Menzinger]

The whole talent vs coaching issue isn't an either or answer.

Both are necessary yet not sufficient (by themselves) for sustained success. Give a lousy coach a talented roster and they'll eventually scree things up - like Carlyle did with the Ducks when he was fired. But a good coach with no talent won't be able to do much.

Babcock's system changes from the Carlyle period are already showing significant improvement - the Leafs just were such void of skill nothing was able to happen.

 

[Pookie]

Yea well, just take a look at our current roster.... really, enough said.

We are hanging in with teams that are better than us at every position, yet we keep pace.

29th place pace…

 

[Pookie]

The whole talent vs coaching issue isn't an either or answer.

Both are necessary yet not sufficient (by themselves) for sustained success. Give a lousy coach a talented roster and they'll eventually scree things up - like Carlyle did with the Ducks when he was fired. But a good coach with no talent won't be able to do much.

Babcock's system changes from the Carlyle period are already showing significant improvement - the Leafs just were such void of skill nothing was able to happen.

It's not either or and I agree with that… but based on the research it's definitely weighted heavily in the favour of talent. Then health. Then coaching.

Carlyle won a Cup with the Ducks. But yes, if you have a talented roster that performs below expectations then that's likely either due to injuries. If those weren't a factor, then we can look at coaching.

So a good coach is one that can get better results than the expected. Take a bottom team up to the middle of the table… or an injury riddled good team to a top finish…. Babcock… sorry Babs… has taken a bottom 5 team and delivered a bottom 5 finish.

Awesome. Well done. Coach of the Year.

As an aside, Babcock's game… sorry Babs' game… keeps the score close. As expected when you hire Trap Legends like Lou and Lemaire.