Dysfunction in the desert: Finger-pointing, fear and financial woes roil the Coyotes organization

[Acesolid]

Quebecor pulled out of NHL expansion because of costs. It was widely reported at the time so you know this. Tell me where anyone in Portland is remotely interested in the NHL. Jody has a mess on her hands with the Seahawks anyway.

That's not what happened. It wasn't Québécor, it was the NHL that denied the bid.

 

[Melrose Munch]

That's not what happened. It wasn't Québécor, it was the NHL that denied the bid.

The NHL has been saying quebec didn't have the money for years (And the fact they didn't want to go there I guess). I personally don't believe that but that was the narrative put out there for rejection.

 

[aqib]

Quebecor pulled out of NHL expansion because of costs. It was widely reported at the time so you know this. Tell me where anyone in Portland is remotely interested in the NHL. Jody has a mess on her hands with the Seahawks anyway.

It was not widely reported its something you made up. Quebecor generated $1.4 billion in operating cash flow last year alone. We all watched the Vegas press conference where they announced the Quebec bid was "suspended" and Quebecor was there. They didn't pull out. I know that for some reason you are dead set against more teams in Canada but say things that can be proven false in 30 seconds on google. Its just embarrassing.

As for Portland, I said that unless someone has a quote or a direct link to Jody Allen no one really knows if that market is a possibility and is just making stuff up (like you are doing on this thread). Also, the Seahawks have made the playoffs 8 out of the last 9 years and are by all accounts very profitable so she doesn't have a "a mess on her hands." In fact she is very hands off with the Seahawks. You can read that here: With no owner involvement, Pete Carroll is calling the shots in Seattle - ProFootballTalk

 

[aqib]

The NHL has been saying quebec didn't have the money for years (And the fact they didn't want to go there I guess). I personally don't believe that but that was the narrative put out there for rejection.

They have expressed concerns about the size of the market but no one other than you has said Qubecor doesn't have the money or was unwilling to pay the fee.

 

[Melrose Munch]

It was not widely reported its something you made up. Quebecor generated $1.4 billion in operating cash flow last year alone. We all watched the Vegas press conference where they announced the Quebec bid was "suspended" and Quebecor was there. They didn't pull out. I know that for some reason you are dead set against more teams in Canada but say things that can be proven false in 30 seconds on google. Its just embarrassing.

As for Portland, I said that unless someone has a quote or a direct link to Jody Allen no one really knows if that market is a possibility and is just making stuff up (like you are doing on this thread). Also, the Seahawks have made the playoffs 8 out of the last 9 years and are by all accounts very profitable so she doesn't have a "a mess on her hands." In fact she is very hands off with the Seahawks. You can read that here: With no owner involvement, Pete Carroll is calling the shots in Seattle - ProFootballTalk

I’m talking player wise regarding the Seahawks. Wilson wants out. Anyway, I never said I was against more Canadian teams, in fact I’m in favour of Quebec. Overarching point is that no one has rapped forward at this time and said they would would pay what would be 750 million dollars for an NHL team, if they did, the would be preparing for expansion.

They have expressed concerns about the size of the market but no one other than you has said Qubecor doesn't have the money or was unwilling to pay the fee.

really?

Can Quebecor Inc really afford to purchase an NHL team? | Financial Post

What do you know that the FP doesn’t here. Of course you’ll claim it’s speculation, but that is what you’re doing here too.

 

[Bondurant]

Though this will never happen while Bettman is in charge; he refuses to let his pet project die

Bettman does not call the shots.

 

[golfortennis]

Its worked out fine for MLS. Yes the Sacramento bid fell apart partially due to Covid but they are going to get to 29 teams in a couple of years when they were at 18 in 2015. Look at who is buying these teams as well. You have billionaires buying shares in these teams, you think they don't know how to value assets?

People said Karmanos was never going to get $400 million for the Hurricanes and he got $420 million from Tom Dundon. He's a guy who made his living in investments. Now I don't know what you do for a living but do you really thing you can value assets better than him and other billionaires?

Not disagreeing in total, but MLS has really looked a lot like a Ponzi scheme in many ways. Seems expansion fees is their strategy for revenue. From 18 to 29 in less than a decade? Has to raise eyebrows I would think. I say this noting I also don't really follow the business that deeply. But it's more of a collective if I'm not mistaken, as opposed to the other sports.

 

[Voight]

Not disagreeing in total, but MLS has really looked a lot like a Ponzi scheme in many ways. Seems expansion fees is their strategy for revenue. From 18 to 29 in less than a decade? Has to raise eyebrows I would think. I say this noting I also don't really follow the business that deeply. But it's more of a collective if I'm not mistaken, as opposed to the other sports.

Correct. Owners are investor/operators who are shareholders in the league & player contracts are held by the league itself, not the teams.

 

[aqib]

I’m talking player wise regarding the Seahawks. Wilson wants out. Anyway, I never said I was against more Canadian teams, in fact I’m in favour of Quebec. Overarching point is that no one has rapped forward at this time and said they would would pay what would be 750 million dollars for an NHL team, if they did, the would be preparing for expansion.
really?

Can Quebecor Inc really afford to purchase an NHL team? | Financial Post

What do you know that the FP doesn’t here. Of course you’ll claim it’s speculation, but that is what you’re doing here too.

LOL! Did you actually read the article or just the headline? Let me help you. Here is what is in the article:

“Whatever franchise they want to buy in the NHL, they have the balance sheet to do that,” said Maher Yaghi, telecom, media and tech analyst at Desjardins Securities.
Yaghi said Quebecor’s leverage is higher than its telecom peers, but its financial situation is more convincing when looking at another metric, debt-to-EBITDA. He expects cash flow to grow now that the company is finally making money on its wireless investments.
As it stands, Yaghi said the combination of a bank line of credit and the $272 million in cash Quebecor has on hand (as of period ending March 31) gives it roughly $1 billion to play with.
BMO research analyst Tim Casey in a note said an NHL franchise would be a “long-term play” that provides content for Quebecor’s broadcast arm, and there are plenty of financing options at its disposal.

So no I am not speculating. I also used their most recent financial statements when I quoted the cash flow figures. So please do some research (and by research I mean at least read an article not just the headline) before making such definitive statements.

 

[TheLegend]

LOL! Did you actually read the article or just the headline? Let me help you. Here is what is in the article:

“Whatever franchise they want to buy in the NHL, they have the balance sheet to do that,” said Maher Yaghi, telecom, media and tech analyst at Desjardins Securities.
Yaghi said Quebecor’s leverage is higher than its telecom peers, but its financial situation is more convincing when looking at another metric, debt-to-EBITDA. He expects cash flow to grow now that the company is finally making money on its wireless investments.
As it stands, Yaghi said the combination of a bank line of credit and the $272 million in cash Quebecor has on hand (as of period ending March 31) gives it roughly $1 billion to play with.
BMO research analyst Tim Casey in a note said an NHL franchise would be a “long-term play” that provides content for Quebecor’s broadcast arm, and there are plenty of financing options at its disposal.

So no I am not speculating. I also used their most recent financial statements when I quoted the cash flow figured. So please do some research (and by research I mean at least read an article not just the headline) before making such definitive statements.

You're leaving out a tiny detail...... and it's been touched on many times here in the past.

For the league it's not just getting an expansion fee they can split among the ownership groups. It's also looking at what the long term prospects are in expanding the financial footprint of the league.

So..... other than satisfying the whims of a few thousand rabid Nordiques fans, what does adding a franchise in Quebec City REALLY do to add to the NHL's bottom line???

As a fan, (and even after receiving plenty of venom lobbed my way from others because my team is in the wrong geographical location) I'm not against QC getting a team back. But I'm not blind either.

Neither is the league.

 

[aqib]

You're leaving out a tiny detail...... and it's been touched on many times here in the past.

For the league it's not just getting an expansion fee they can split among the ownership groups. It's also looking at what the long term prospects are in expanding the financial footprint of the league.

So..... other than satisfying the whims of a few thousand rabid Nordiques fans, what does adding a franchise in Quebec City REALLY do to add to the NHL's bottom line???

As a fan, (and even after receiving plenty of venom lobbed my way from others because my team is in the wrong geographical location) I'm not against QC getting a team back. But I'm not blind either.

Neither is the league.

But that's not the argument I am having with Melrose. He is definitively saying that Quebecor couldn't afford/wouldn't pay the fee and went so far as to say that they pulled out of the expansion race all of which is demonstrably false. As for what it would do the the NHL's bottom I would GUESS (and note I am admitting that its a guess I am not pretending that my speculation/wishful thinking is a fact like some people here do - no names please) that if you were to relocate someone like Florida to QC you would have less of a drain on revenue sharing and maybe some more TV revenues from French language rights.

 

[TheLegend]

But that's not the argument I am having with Melrose. He is definitively saying that Quebecor couldn't afford/wouldn't pay the fee and went so far as to say that they pulled out of the expansion race all of which is demonstrably false. As for what it would do the the NHL's bottom I would GUESS (and note I am admitting that its a guess I am not pretending that my speculation/wishful thinking is a fact like some people here do - no names please) that if you were to relocate someone like Florida to QC you would have less of a drain on revenue sharing and maybe some more TV revenues from French language rights.

There were other factors involved with the Quebecor bid being shelved. Biggest of them being the loonie was severely in the tank at the time.

Getting "more TV revenues" in one area as opposed to losing it in another market. You don't think the league's done the overall math? I'm not saying they're right or wrong here. But there's more to it than scoring debate points on a hockey fan forum.

 

[MNNumbers]

But that's not the argument I am having with Melrose. He is definitively saying that Quebecor couldn't afford/wouldn't pay the fee and went so far as to say that they pulled out of the expansion race all of which is demonstrably false. As for what it would do the the NHL's bottom I would GUESS (and note I am admitting that its a guess I am not pretending that my speculation/wishful thinking is a fact like some people here do - no names please) that if you were to relocate someone like Florida to QC you would have less of a drain on revenue sharing and maybe some more TV revenues from French language rights.

You would not have less 'drain on revenue sharing' because the amount of sharing is prescribed by the CBA, and it that were to change in another round of negotiations with the PA, Quebec v Florida would NOT be a reason for the change. So, please get rid of that idea. It won't benefit the other owners to move Florida to Quebec because of revenue sharing.

Broadcast rights? Hmmm, how many eyeballs anywhere in Canada who potentially might want to watch hockey currently are not? How many potential French language fans are currently shut out? Few, I think.

It's been discussed here often. Quebec stands as a possible landing spot if the particular owner in an Eastern Conference market, has such a poor bottom line that the owner cannot remain in the present location. Only then, there might be a relocation.

 

[Melrose Munch]

LOL! Did you actually read the article or just the headline? Let me help you. Here is what is in the article:

“Whatever franchise they want to buy in the NHL, they have the balance sheet to do that,” said Maher Yaghi, telecom, media and tech analyst at Desjardins Securities.
Yaghi said Quebecor’s leverage is higher than its telecom peers, but its financial situation is more convincing when looking at another metric, debt-to-EBITDA. He expects cash flow to grow now that the company is finally making money on its wireless investments.
As it stands, Yaghi said the combination of a bank line of credit and the $272 million in cash Quebecor has on hand (as of period ending March 31) gives it roughly $1 billion to play with.
BMO research analyst Tim Casey in a note said an NHL franchise would be a “long-term play” that provides content for Quebecor’s broadcast arm, and there are plenty of financing options at its disposal.

So no I am not speculating. I also used their most recent financial statements when I quoted the cash flow figures. So please do some research (and by research I mean at least read an article not just the headline) before making such definitive statements.

But that's not the argument I am having with Melrose. He is definitively saying that Quebecor couldn't afford/wouldn't pay the fee and went so far as to say that they pulled out of the expansion race all of which is demonstrably false. As for what it would do the the NHL's bottom I would GUESS (and note I am admitting that its a guess I am not pretending that my speculation/wishful thinking is a fact like some people here do - no names please) that if you were to relocate someone like Florida to QC you would have less of a drain on revenue sharing and maybe some more TV revenues from French language rights.

Of course like @TheLegend said you left out a couple details. You're changing positions again. You were asked who is going to pay that fee? You don't have answer.

You're leaving out a tiny detail...... and it's been touched on many times here in the past.

For the league it's not just getting an expansion fee they can split among the ownership groups. It's also looking at what the long term prospects are in expanding the financial footprint of the league.

So..... other than satisfying the whims of a few thousand rabid Nordiques fans, what does adding a franchise in Quebec City REALLY do to add to the NHL's bottom line???

As a fan, (and even after receiving plenty of venom lobbed my way from others because my team is in the wrong geographical location) I'm not against QC getting a team back. But I'm not blind either.

Neither is the league.

There were other factors involved with the Quebecor bid being shelved. Biggest of them being the loonie was severely in the tank at the time.

Getting "more TV revenues" in one area as opposed to losing it in another market. You don't think the league's done the overall math? I'm not saying they're right or wrong here. But there's more to it than scoring debate points on a hockey fan forum.

Exactly my point.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Of course like @TheLegend said you left out a couple details. You're changing positions again. You were asked who is going to pay that fee? You don't have answer. There's also no proof anyone in Portland is interested as of late 2020.


Exactly my point.

nope.

Melrose:

who would own a team to MNN's point to you.... your angle doesn't pass muster here....

 

[MNNumbers]

nope.

Melrose:

who would own a team to MNN's point to you.... your angle doesn't pass muster here....

As usual, I have no idea what you are saying.

I wouldn't dispute very much of what MM said. The important points are:

1- The Quebec bid was suspended, not rejected
2- There were reports that Quebecor was looking for minority investors. Whether they NEEDED them because they couldn't find the cash is another question.
3- There is very little advantage for the NHL to be in Quebec City. This is the reason that the expansion bid was suspended. The NHL wanted Seattle, and they got Seattle. QC would have made getting Seattle awkward for alignment, etc.
4- A team in QC is going to have difficult years financially because of the CAD, and because there aren't as many big corporations to buy the high end tickets as there are in other places. There should be plenty of common-man fans, however.

For all of these reasons, there is no urgency on the part of the NHL to go to Quebec.

Why are we talking about this in the Arizona thread?

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

As usual, I have no idea what you are saying.

I wouldn't dispute very much of what MM said. The important points are:

1- The Quebec bid was suspended, not rejected
2- There were reports that Quebecor was looking for minority investors. Whether they NEEDED them because they couldn't find the cash is another question.
3- There is very little advantage for the NHL to be in Quebec City. This is the reason that the expansion bid was suspended. The NHL wanted Seattle, and they got Seattle. QC would have made getting Seattle awkward for alignment, etc.
4- A team in QC is going to have difficult years financially because of the CAD, and because there aren't as many big corporations to buy the high end tickets as there are in other places. There should be plenty of common-man fans, however.

For all of these reasons, there is no urgency on the part of the NHL to go to Quebec.

Why are we talking about this in the Arizona thread?

the point is, MNN:

Everybody generally agrees with the premise.... but QC nor the Coyotes are part of this..... I have no clue where Melrose believes QC is the end all..... which we know is false... I don't buy his claim knowing what we know now about QC, unless as you pointed out and consistently do... unless another Eastern market collapses.... QC remains not a player

 

[Melrose Munch]

the point is, MNN:

Everybody generally agrees with the premise.... but QC nor the Coyotes are part of this..... I have no clue where Melrose believes QC is the end all..... which we know is false... I don't buy his claim knowing what we know now about QC, unless as you pointed out and consistently do... unless another Eastern market collapses.... QC remains not a player

nope.

Melrose:

who would own a team to MNN's point to you.... your angle doesn't pass muster here....

As usual, I have no idea what you are saying.

I wouldn't dispute very much of what MM said. The important points are:

1- The Quebec bid was suspended, not rejected
2- There were reports that Quebecor was looking for minority investors. Whether they NEEDED them because they couldn't find the cash is another question.
3- There is very little advantage for the NHL to be in Quebec City. This is the reason that the expansion bid was suspended. The NHL wanted Seattle, and they got Seattle. QC would have made getting Seattle awkward for alignment, etc.
4- A team in QC is going to have difficult years financially because of the CAD, and because there aren't as many big corporations to buy the high end tickets as there are in other places. There should be plenty of common-man fans, however.

For all of these reasons, there is no urgency on the part of the NHL to go to Quebec.

Why are we talking about this in the Arizona thread?

Hi @MNNumbers quebec is more a an example vis a vis if the expansion fee is worth, or if the NHL justified in charging it. People are saying I am wrong because valuations are nebulous. I'm not saying that. I'm simply saying the NHL can ask for that as a total relocation or expansion, doesn't mean they are going to get it.

 

[golfortennis]

You would not have less 'drain on revenue sharing' because the amount of sharing is prescribed by the CBA, and it that were to change in another round of negotiations with the PA, Quebec v Florida would NOT be a reason for the change. So, please get rid of that idea. It won't benefit the other owners to move Florida to Quebec because of revenue sharing.

Broadcast rights? Hmmm, how many eyeballs anywhere in Canada who potentially might want to watch hockey currently are not? How many potential French language fans are currently shut out? Few, I think.

It's been discussed here often. Quebec stands as a possible landing spot if the particular owner in an Eastern Conference market, has such a poor bottom line that the owner cannot remain in the present location. Only then, there might be a relocation.

Agreed. An individual owner would no doubt make out better in Quebec rather than in some other spots, but all they would be doing is siphoning off revenue/attention from existing teams based in Canada.

I've always been curious just how much a second GTA team would impact the Leafs local rights? Have to wonder if it would be even more than half, given that exclusivity has value(ie, you might be willing to miss the Leafs game tonight if the other team is playing tomorrow night.) I highly doubt in sum, though, there would be *more* TV revenue from that arrangement.

Although I could be wrong.

 

[MNNumbers]

Hi @MNNumbers quebec is more a an example vis a vis if the expansion fee is worth, or if the NHL justified in charging it. People are saying I am wrong because valuations are nebulous. I'm not saying that. I'm simply saying the NHL can ask for that as a total relocation or expansion, doesn't mean they are going to get it.

Oh, well if the question is pertaining to franchise values, expansion fees, and relocation fees....

Then the answer is:
The NHL determines the price. End of story.

Whether there is any logic to that is a different question.

The NHL line of thought goes:
Any new market is worth 650M - see Seattle.
If an owner moves markets, then obviously the new market is more valuable than the old one. You might get a price for a new market which is less than 650, but not much (500-600, maybe). So, even if the team can't be purchased for that, if you purchase to relocate, the relo fee will make up the difference.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Oh, well if the question is pertaining to franchise values, expansion fees, and relocation fees....

Then the answer is:
The NHL determines the price. End of story.

Whether there is any logic to that is a different question.

The NHL line of thought goes:
Any new market is worth 650M - see Seattle.
If an owner moves markets, then obviously the new market is more valuable than the old one. You might get a price for a new market which is less than 650, but not much (500-600, maybe). So, even if the team can't be purchased for that, if you purchase to relocate, the relo fee will make up the difference.

Which is fine. I'm saying that if someone says no, then the NHL should not complain.


As for the logic, I go back to my original post: NHL doesn't have to show justification, but based on what we know (tv numbers, need of ticket revenue) I wouldn't pay that if I had that amount of money.

 

[TheLegend]

Why are we talking about this in the Arizona thread?

Tradition MNN....... tradition.

 

[MNNumbers]

Which is fine. I'm saying that if someone says no, then the NHL should not complain.


As for the logic, I go back to my original post: NHL doesn't have to show justification, but based on what we know (tv numbers, need of ticket revenue) I wouldn't pay that if I had that amount of money.

I would agree with all of this. And, I would also say that they WILL complain if someone says no, because that's tactics.

 

[aqib]

There were other factors involved with the Quebecor bid being shelved. Biggest of them being the loonie was severely in the tank at the time.

Getting "more TV revenues" in one area as opposed to losing it in another market. You don't think the league's done the overall math? I'm not saying they're right or wrong here. But there's more to it than scoring debate points on a hockey fan forum.

I think the league is of the mindset that they would increase their overall revenue by being in markets where hockey is new. Bill Daly said as much when he was asked about another team in Southern Ontario he said it wouldn't be great from an exposure point of view.

There are a bunch of reasons why QC's bid was shelved, my beef with Melrose here is that he is saying Quebecor was unwilling or unable to meet the asking price and that's simply false.

 

[aqib]

Of course like @TheLegend said you left out a couple details. You're changing positions again. You were asked who is going to pay that fee? You don't have answer.


Exactly my point.

My position hasn't changed. My position is simply that you are making stuff up with no evidence to back it up. You said Quebecor didn't have the resources to pay for a team. That's false, they are a public company and their financial information showed they do. You posted an article with headline that you thought backed up your argument but apparently didn't both reading it because the text of the article showed said the exact opposite. You said they pulled out of the bidding, which again was false. Now I haven't been on this board in months, I just decided to come on because of the ESPN deal (there hasn't been much real interesting business stuff in a while) so its not like being on this board is an important part of my life but for you it seems you're so fixated on making a point that you'll just make things up to do it.