Friedman: Dvorak’s name is out there, Minnesota interested (again)

[Dr Jan Itor]

Are you deliberately misinterpreting my sentences to be an ass?

Because I pretty clearly said he wasn't surrounded by talent. He didn't play with Hall. He's barely played with Kessel. He's barely played with Garland. He's barely played with Keller or Schmaltz. Two good players on his lines? Pretty f***in rare mate.

Looks like those two were pretty well stapled together in 2019-20. In fact, those 5 guys were his 5 most common forward line mates that year.

Unless you're just talking about last year.

 

[AKL]

Are you deliberately misinterpreting my sentences to be an ass?

Because I pretty clearly said he wasn't surrounded by talent. He didn't play with Hall. He's barely played with Kessel. He's barely played with Garland. He's barely played with Keller or Schmaltz. Two good players on his lines? Pretty f***in rare mate.

Looks like those two were pretty well stapled together in 2019-20. In fact, those 5 guys were his 5 most common forward line mates that year.

Unless you're just talking about last year.

This most recent season was the first of his career where he didn't spend a vast majority of his time with at least one of those five, and he still played a not-insignificant amount of time with Keller and Kessel.

And a relatively large portion of the numbers he puts up are from the PP. He's 219th in the league among forwards for 5v5 P/60 for the last two years. He plays a lot, he gets a ton of help from the PP, but he's not a very efficient player at even strength when it comes to producing offense. For comparison's sake, Eriksson Ek's played that same role and he is 116th.

 

[Minnewildsota]

And why is that? The only reason you say that is because of your fandom.

Do you have any knowledge at all about the projected recovery of patient undergoing cervical spine artificial disk replacement surgery vs the possible cardiovascular damage that a bad COVID case can lead to?

Because I do, and Eichel is a much more predictable case in my opinion.

You’rea virologist and a spinal specialist? Color me impressed.

What are the long term effects of COVID? Asking so I can pass it onto the world.

 

[Minnewildsota]

Yes I’d love to go down this road. I’ve already finished my academic years at WashU medical school and I take great interest when my passions of medicine and hockey overlap.

I haven’t reviewed Eichel’s particular case extensively, but I am quite familiar with the surgery he is requesting. A 24 year old athlete is a prime candidate for a full recovery assuming the surgery goes smoothly.

The long term effects of COVID are still being studied and are relatively unknown due to its recency. But cases of cardiac weakness following a bad COVID infection in MLB players have been reported.

In my (soon to be) professional opinion, I think Eichel is extremely likely to recover and only a botched surgery would really incline me to believe otherwise. Rossi, and any other players with COVID related health concerns, should be judged on a case by case basis. It is far less predictable than surgery.

Since you're so condescending, what’s your take on the matter??

1) any medical professional should know not to assume without studying a patients specific case. 2) that’s an assumption that you can’t guarantee
3) you literally just said you knew this. So you know or don’t know?

Finally, Rossi had heart inflammation that forced him to sit out 6+ months of essentially no physical activity until the inflammation subsided. He’s been clear to resume activities and has started doing intense drills recently. I’d say he’ll be fine.

 

[The Moose is Loose]

You’rea virologist and a spinal specialist? Color me impressed.

What are the long term effects of COVID? Asking so I can pass it onto the world.

I’m neither. But as an MD it’s our job to have a solid foundational knowledge about all aspects of medicine- including virology and neurosurgery. So while I’m not a specialist, I also not a layman.

Long term effects of COVID are still being researched. I encourage you google them:
This is a good article I found

The Long-term Cardiovascular Impact of COVID-19

(dicardiology has a ton of really good articles/journals for anyone interested)

 

[Go4soda]

Reunite Dvorak with marner

 

[The Moose is Loose]

1) any medical professional should know not to assume without studying a patients specific case. 2) that’s an assumption that you can’t guarantee
3) you literally just said you knew this. So you know or don’t know?

Finally, Rossi had heart inflammation that forced him to sit out 6+ months of essentially no physical activity until the inflammation subsided. He’s been clear to resume activities and has started doing intense drills recently. I’d say he’ll be fine.

You say he’ll be fine? And what are your credentials? Since you arrogantly called mine into question.

1) I would very much enjoy getting to read the finer details of Eichel’s case, but there is only so much knowledge the public is privy to. So I work with what I have- details of parallel cases (young men getting cervical disk replacement surgeries)
2) Obviously not. Every surgery carries a degree of risk. Although that degree is likely quite small in this case. Many of the possible complications that could arise in this particular surgery coincide with age, the fact Eichel is 24 and in excellent shape bodes very well for a projected outcome
3) I never claimed to know. I just cited that COVID can lead to longterm cardiovascular damage, even in professional athletes. COVID and its extensive outreach is still being studied obviously.

I never claimed that Rossi won’t be okay, it is likely he will be. But the fact he was kept off the ice for over 6 months leads me to believe there is a higher chance of further complications than the chance a skilled surgeon would make a mistake on Eichel’s neck. Surgery is simply more predictable, in this comparison. Just because Rossi is doing intense drills now does not mean that his cardiovascular system is the exact same compared to a year ago. Medicine isn’t always that simple unfortunately.

I hope the best for both of them.

 

[RemoAZ]

Are you deliberately misinterpreting my sentences to be an ass?

Because I pretty clearly said he wasn't surrounded by talent. He didn't play with Hall. He's barely played with Kessel. He's barely played with Garland. He's barely played with Keller or Schmaltz. Two good players on his lines? Pretty f***in rare mate.

You're wasting your time. B prospect and 2nd. That's what people think he's worth that either never or barely watched him play. I wanted to see Tocc put him with Garland to score and Crouse to protect him all year. With about 10 games to go Tocc finally put them together. Then Garland gets hurt in warmups. Classic Coyotes. He was lucky to get decent scorers for a few shifts outside the PP. You'd think the scoring on the PP would have been a clue to make him your top scoring center 5v5 but hot coaching candidate Tocc thought otherwise.

 

[Perratrooper]

I’d give up something like Jost+Kaut+Compher+2021 first for Dvorak or Jost+Bowers+Graves+2021 first for Dvorak.

 

[smoneil]

Gotta love threads where people start whipping out academic credentials, haha. Now I kinda want to throw my PhD in the ring. If anyone can get me a photo of Eichel's bookshelf, I can diagnose the f*** out of his taste in Renaissance drama.

 

[tsujimoto74]

I'll give my take. Nobody cares about your opinion and all you've "proven" is that there isn't much research to go off of Covid. You don't need a medical degree to point that out.

I do think your take on Eichel is a little "light" in terms of potential problems. Here's a video for you, pay specific attention to 3:59-4:28 :

Unless this guy is Eichel's personal doctor and has actually seen his scans/records, how the f*** is his opinion credible?

 

[Digitalbooya]

Unless this guy is Eichel's personal doctor and has actually seen his scans/records, how the f*** is his opinion credible?

He’s speaking to the surgery that Eichel has said he wants. Not sure that Eichel’s scans/records would make a difference in his opinion on that specific surgery. Regardless, I’d take his opinion over a poster on HF any day.

 

[The Moose is Loose]

He’s speaking to the surgery that Eichel has said he wants. Not sure that Eichel’s scans/records would make a difference in his opinion on that specific surgery. Regardless, I’d take his opinion over a poster on HF any day.

Ah I see you’re still upset about our Kaprisov vs Draisaitl argument.
Regardless even if you don’t care about my opinion, maybe others would- because I do have more medical knowledge than an average person, and that pertains to discussion about Rossi and Eichel’s future health.

As for that video, the guy isn’t wrong, obviously there risk with any surgery. But I think this spine surgeon is likely deferring to what he knows, based on his age. Fusion was the standard procedure until the past decade so obviously that is viewed as the more reliable route, which is fair. However I know they approve skiing for patients who have had artificial disk replacement and that sport has a much higher frequency of spinal/neuro injuries than hockey.

I think Eichel is smart for trying to use medical advancements to his advantage- disk replacement done correctly would get him 100% back to where he was pre injury. Fusion obviously decreases elasticity of the spine and mobility of the neck- both of those are important for the fine motor control needed to be a star at the NHL level. Yes it’s a little intimidating being the pioneer, but that’s how medicine progresses. It’s obvious disk replacement is a key component of the future of spinal surgery, if Eichel is not the first- someone else will be soon.

 

[Digitalbooya]

Regardless even if you don’t care about my opinion, maybe others would- because I do have more medical knowledge than an average person, and that pertains to discussion about Rossi and Eichel’s future health.

So how about you take your “medical expertise” to the Eichel thread instead of derailing a Dvorak/Minnesota thread. There is no way IMO, and I know how much you love my opinions lol, Minnesota trades Rossi for Dvorak.

 

[Dead Coyote]

This most recent season was the first of his career where he didn't spend a vast majority of his time with at least one of those five, and he still played a not-insignificant amount of time with Keller and Kessel.

And a relatively large portion of the numbers he puts up are from the PP. He's 219th in the league among forwards for 5v5 P/60 for the last two years. He plays a lot, he gets a ton of help from the PP, but he's not a very efficient player at even strength when it comes to producing offense. For comparison's sake, Eriksson Ek's played that same role and he is 116th.

He was not stapled together to Hall. They didn't even play the majority of the season together. He played with Hall for the latter half of the season last year. His minutes were also a lot less than they usually were. His PP time was significant, yes. Which maybe shows that if you surround him with talent he can produce, but nah, that can't be true.

This year he got a decent amount of time with Keller and Kessel, and got less PP time and produced more with those players.

This year he spent the majority of his time Pitlick and Crouse. The majority of his even strength production literally comes from himself. He had 4 points with no one else on his line involved this year.

Also my math might be a little off here, but when you have 28/38 points even strength, I think that's a pretty large jump to go say he gets a ton of help from the PP. And I picked the year where he put up the highest difference between EV/PP.

 

[The Moose is Loose]

So how about you take your “medical expertise” to the Eichel thread instead of derailing a Dvorak/Minnesota thread. There is no way IMO, and I know how much you love my opinions lol, Minnesota trades Rossi for Dvorak.

I honestly don’t think your opinions are bad. The Kaprisov=Draisaitl argument was ridiculous imo but most of your takes are solid. You’re usually a voice of reason amongst wild fans (unlike cough cough Kaprisoventiltist cough haha).

In a vacuum I think Dvorak carries more value largely because i think prospects value can get overrated on this site. But I don’t think it’s crazy to say Minnesota wouldn’t deal Rossi for Dvorak- a potential top 6 center on an ELC is insanely valuable and Minnesota needs to maximize their cap space over the next couple years due to their large buyouts.

I wasn’t just speaking to Eichel’s health, but also Rossi’s too. I just initially responded to a guy who said Eichel was more of health risk than Rossi going forward, and in my opinion that’s not the case. Anyways, the far and away most likely outcome is both recover 100%. I think the discussion is relevant because health definitely affects trade value.

 

[Digitalbooya]

I honestly don’t think your opinions are bad. The Kaprisov=Draisaitl argument was ridiculous imo but most of your takes are solid.

I feel like this is how I know you were seeing red in that argument. My opinion was never Kap = Draisaitl.

In a vacuum I think Dvorak carries more value largely because i think prospects value can get overrated on this site. But I don’t think it’s crazy to say Minnesota wouldn’t deal Rossi for Dvorak- a potential top 6 center on an ELC is insanely valuable and Minnesota needs to maximize their cap space over the next couple years due to their large buyouts.

I wasn’t just speaking to Eichel’s health, but also Rossi’s too. I just initially responded to a guy who said Eichel was more of health risk than Rossi going forward, and in my opinion that’s not the case. Anyways, the far and away most likely outcome is both recover 100%. I think the discussion is relevant because health definitely affects trade value.

I think Eichel has by far the worst case scenario. If he gets the disk replacement then I would be terrified to play him at all simply because I would not want to play a part in a guy who is at a higher risk of being paralyzed than any other player. Rossi is unknown and I guess the unknown is what drives people crazy. Regardless, both are currently back skating and we will know soon enough if either has major problems.

 

[mattydamon]

TIL Dvorak is better than Point and Larkin!

 

[rt]

TIL Dvorak is better than Point and Larkin!

TIL you're drunk in the middle of a work day.