Player Discussion Duncan Keith

SwedishFire

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Mar 3, 2011
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Ken Holland couldn't tell the difference between a good or bad player if he had a crystal ball. He unironically views Zack Kassian and Duncan Keith as positive assets. Get a new general manager.

In the cap world, 10 good moves, and one bad move causes death or pitfalls for a GM, AN clearly, Hollands misstake here is Kassians contract.
KIeth contract is half-ass move. But I suspect McDavid had a finger in this game too ( I just suspect) to bring him in (ofC he is a legend).

And Hollands bad habit of throwing away 2nds and 3rds. WIch is dissapointing when the big drop of player quality comes after 3rd round. ALmost all NHLers from drafts comes in 1-3rd round. Drafting has become better. Some rare finds are taken in the 4-5th round. 6-7th round is barley 2-3 players over all 30 teams becoming mainstays in a NHL team every year.

Im still baffled that Holland throw away two 2nds like it was nothing for a limited talent like AA to play with McJesus. Its just piss poor management.
 
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Trafalgar Sadge Law

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In the cap world, 10 good moves, and one bad move causes death or pitfalls for a GM, AN clearly, Hollands misstake here is Kassians contract.
KIeth contract is half-ass move. But I suspect McDavid had a finger in this game too ( I just suspect) to bring him in (ofC he is a legend).

And Hollands bad habit of throwing away 2nds and 3rds. WIch is dissapointing when the big drop of player quality comes after 3rd round. ALmost all NHLers from drafts comes in 1-3rd round. Drafting has become better. Some are finds in the 4-5th round. 6-7th round is barley 2-3 players becoming mainstays in the team every year.

Im still baffled that Holland throw away two 2nds like it was nothing for a limited talent like AA to play with McJesus. Its just piss poor management.
McJesus almost certainly played a role in bringing in Duncan Keith. He also probably had a big role in his workout buddies Devin Shore getting a 2 year deal (seriously? 2 years?) and Warren Noegoales being acquired. This is why you don't let your players make moves for you as a GM. You can ask them for their opinion on which players are hard to play against/which players are talented etc, but players don't look at things like salary cap/draft picks and should not be the ones building a roster. The fault of that move is still at the end of the day Ken Holland's, he makes the final decision.

Nathan MacKinnon allegedly phoned Joe Sakic almost every day to make sure the staff watched Justin Barron, pretty much begged the team to draft him, and threw a party for Barron for his NHL debut. Sakic went ahead and traded Barron for Artturi Lehkonen anyway and safe to say Nathan MacKinnon is no longer mad about that.
 

TopShelfGloveSide

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McJesus almost certainly played a role in bringing in Duncan Keith. He also probably had a big role in his workout buddies Devin Shore getting a 2 year deal (seriously? 2 years?) and Warren Noegoales being acquired. This is why you don't let your players make moves for you as a GM. You can ask them for their opinion on which players are hard to play against/which players are talented etc, but players don't look at things like salary cap/draft picks and should not be the ones building a roster. The fault of that move is still at the end of the day Ken Holland's, he makes the final decision.

Nathan MacKinnon allegedly phoned Joe Sakic almost every day to make sure the staff watched Justin Barron, pretty much begged the team to draft him, and threw a party for Barron for his NHL debut. Sakic went ahead and traded Barron for Artturi Lehkonen anyway and safe to say Nathan MacKinnon is no longer mad about that.
Shore signed 2 years cause of McDavid. LOL!
 

Fourier

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there is public evidence that Keith demanded to be in western canada for his son. If we trade him to Arizona or whoever, so they buy him out, it looks not genuine, especially if we sign him.

What made the Washington case ruled as genuine was probably that the Capitals liked Orpik but could not have his cap hit, so they traded him fully comfortable with him being gone forever. There was also no NTC muddying that up, and no public record that linked Orpik to the Capitals besides hockey. So in Keith's case it's hard to take it seriously when Keith agrees to be traded to team that is away from his son, because it seems like he knows he will be bought out and knows he will sign again with Edmonton. I bet those would be the questions the NHL would have for Keith in this.

The fact that they did investigate it in the Washington case tells me that there is a way to do this the wrong way. You aren't allowed to do this just to keep a player and reduce the cap hit.

The way around this is if Holland and Keith are both on board and say the right things. When Keith is traded, the messaging has to be that it is for a buyout, which makes Keith okay with it, and then Holland has to say that they are moving on and wish him luck, or even better Keith retires soon after, or at least public says he is contemplating it. Then, much later, we sign him. If at any point Holland says something like "we are just doing what Washington did" then instantly we'd get ruled for circumvention I think. Let's be real here to, this whole thing is circumvention. If Washington planned that whole thing out with Orpik, that was too.

I do think this happened before. Wasn't there a team that tried this with Lecavalier and the league nixed it?
The only thing that should be problematic here is if there was a prearranged agreement to resign Keith. If Keith agreed to be traded for a buyout with no prearranged agreement, then there should be no issue with him resigning. There are other teams that could be available to him in Calgary and Vancouver if he wanted to be close to his son. He would be free to negotiate with both and if he was not willing to sign with them I don't see why he could not return to the Oilers given the Orpik precedent.

The Oilers would have to be careful, to manage the move carefully. In particular, they would have to be fully ok with him signing elsewhere which he might do. Right now Keith is simply not worth his cap hit. His contract is buyout proof. There is a very good reason why they might want to consider moving him. It would then be Keith's camp that would require the assurance of a buyout to waive just as Marleau did with the Leafs.
 
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Trafalgar Sadge Law

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The only thing that should be problematic here is if there was a prearranged agreement to resign Keith. If Keith agreed to be traded for a buyout with no prearranged agreement, then there should be no issue with him resigning. There are other teams that could be available to him in Calgary and Vancouver if he wanted to be close to his son. He would be free to negotiate with both and if he was not willing to sign with them I don't see why he could not return to the Oilers given the Orpik precedent.

The Oilers would have to be careful, to manage the move carefully. In particular, they would have to be fully ok with him signing elsewhere which he might do. Right now Keith is simply not worth his cap hit. His contract is buyout proof. There is a very good reason why they might want to consider moving him. It would then be Keith's camp that would require the assurance of a buyout to waive just as Marleau did with the Leafs.
The other, even more problematic issue of that move is that Duncan Keith would still be in the Oilers lineup afterwards despite the 2nd round pick+sweetener it would take to dump that albatross. It is absolutely crucial that Keith retires both for our cap management, and our trade assets, and being able to get actual good defensemen in the lineup.
 

SwedishFire

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Mar 3, 2011
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McJesus almost certainly played a role in bringing in Duncan Keith. He also probably had a big role in his workout buddies Devin Shore getting a 2 year deal (seriously? 2 years?) and Warren Noegoales being acquired. This is why you don't let your players make moves for you as a GM. You can ask them for their opinion on which players are hard to play against/which players are talented etc, but players don't look at things like salary cap/draft picks and should not be the ones building a roster. The fault of that move is still at the end of the day Ken Holland's, he makes the final decision.

Nathan MacKinnon allegedly phoned Joe Sakic almost every day to make sure the staff watched Justin Barron, pretty much begged the team to draft him, and threw a party for Barron for his NHL debut. Sakic went ahead and traded Barron for Artturi Lehkonen anyway and safe to say Nathan MacKinnon is no longer mad about that.

Interresting read. But -yes. Some signings surprises me. I though think Shore is a good depth forward. he can bang and score some. Thats more than half of oilers latest bottom 6ers do.

I doubt though that McDavid had a request for Foegele?? I think Foegele fills a role, but somewhat he dissapeared for a while. 2,7m in cap is not that half ass bad, and there is other teams wanting him. He could just be a bad fit, but I think they should keep him as a bottom 6er.

Holland is far far better than Chiarelli, and I think fans a a bit to fast to hang him high. He has done plenty of good. Just look at the rooster when he cam here, and now. Oilers has came out of a deep hole with a lots of catastrophe contracts - to reach the conf. finals with a questionable goalietandem.
Holland has throwed out a lots of high draft picks, and now the party is over. There are no extra sweeternes over for next blockbuster trade. He has to sell. And that probably includes Jesse Puljujärvi.

ANd yes, I also wish to know what went threw Hollands head when he signed Kassian. A bad habit from his former 26 teams league-era in Detroit? It doesnt work no more. Holland really really will eat up that contract. Probably litterary soon.
I suspect even here that McDavid (And Leon) wished to sign the guy who keeps the lockeroom in a good place.
 

Trafalgar Sadge Law

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Interresting read. But -yes. Some signings surprises me. I though think Shore is a good depth forward. he can bang and score some. Thats more than half of oilers latest bottom 6ers do.

I doubt though that McDavid had a request for Foegele?? I think Foegele fills a role, but somewhat he dissapeared for a while. 2,7m in cap is not that half ass bad, and there is other teams wanting him. He could just be a bad fit, but I think they should keep him as a bottom 6er.

Holland is far far better than Chiarelli, and I think fans a a bit to fast to hang him high. He has done plenty of good. Just look at the rooster when he cam here, and now. Oilers has came out of a deep hole with a lots of catastrophe contracts - to reach the conf. finals with a questionable goalietandem.
Holland has throwed out a lots of high draft picks, and now the party is over. There are no extra sweeternes over for next blockbuster trade. He has to sell. And that probably includes Jesse Puljujärvi.

ANd yes, I also wish to know what went threw Hollands head when he signed Kassian. A bad habit from his former 26 teams league-era in Detroit? It doesnt work no more. Holland really really will eat up that contract. Probably litterary soon.
I suspect even here that McDavid (And Leon) wished to sign the guy who keeps the lockeroom in a good place.
McDavid and Foegele is more just me flaming Ken Holland than anything else, they do work out together in the offseason though.

Oh also he is way way better than Chiarelli, but like even Jim Benning would've been an upgrade over Chiarelli that's not exactly a tall task. And yes we better be winning some trades for once this decade. No more sweeteners.
 

bucks_oil

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Aug 25, 2005
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Shore signed 2 years cause of McDavid. LOL!

I don't understand the Devin Shore hate. I mean the guy is signed at league minimum and despite being wildly inconsistent (see league min contract) is versatile and one of a few guys on our 4th line that can thread a decent pass and set up a teammate from time to time. He's also not a bad PKer. He's the least of our worries as a 13th forward.
 

TopShelfGloveSide

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Dec 10, 2018
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I don't understand the Devin Shore hate. I mean the guy is signed at league minimum and despite being wildly inconsistent (see league min contract) is versatile and one of a few guys on our 4th line that can thread a decent pass and set up a teammate from time to time. He's also not a bad PKer. He's the least of our worries as a 13th forward.
I’m laughing at what he said. I don’t care about the shore contract it means nothing.
 

Bryanbryoil

Pray For Ukraine
Sep 13, 2004
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McJesus almost certainly played a role in bringing in Duncan Keith. He also probably had a big role in his workout buddies Devin Shore getting a 2 year deal (seriously? 2 years?) and Warren Noegoales being acquired. This is why you don't let your players make moves for you as a GM. You can ask them for their opinion on which players are hard to play against/which players are talented etc, but players don't look at things like salary cap/draft picks and should not be the ones building a roster. The fault of that move is still at the end of the day Ken Holland's, he makes the final decision.

Nathan MacKinnon allegedly phoned Joe Sakic almost every day to make sure the staff watched Justin Barron, pretty much begged the team to draft him, and threw a party for Barron for his NHL debut. Sakic went ahead and traded Barron for Artturi Lehkonen anyway and safe to say Nathan MacKinnon is no longer mad about that.
They also had a role in bringing Hyman in. It is hit and miss. I believe that there's more to Foegele but that he isn't a good fit here. I expected a more consistent effort from him TBH.
 
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Trafalgar Sadge Law

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They also had a role in bringing Hyman in. It is hit and miss. I believe that there's more to Foegele but that he isn't a good fit here. I expected a more consistent effort from him TBH.
Yes McDrai definitely had a hand in bringing in Hyman. At the end of the day though a GM should never use his players as anything but an additional source of info. You still need to make your own evaluations and just use the players' opinion as a piece of the equation, rather than letting them dictate your moves.
 

fuswald

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Dec 10, 2008
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They also had a role in bringing Hyman in. It is hit and miss. I believe that there's more to Foegele but that he isn't a good fit here. I expected a more consistent effort from him TBH.
I think he may be a player who needs to gel with linemates and oilers can't keep a line of three players for more than a few games it seems.

I keep Foegele over half ass Kassian all day. That said Kassian will be playing for a contract so maybe we get Kassian pre contract energy this year.
 

Trafalgar Sadge Law

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I think he may be a player who needs to gel with linemates and oilers can't keep a line of three players for more than a few games it seems.

I keep Foegele over half ass Kassian all day. That said Kassian will be playing for a contract so maybe we get Kassian pre contract energy this year.
Kass is actually not playing for a contract he still has multiple years left on his deal. Lemme go vomit now.
 

McDoused

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Feb 5, 2007
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I dont see Keith retiring. If anything I think coming to Edmonton rejuvenated him a bit. He seemed to have fun and enjoy going deep in the playoffs after being on a crap team for 7 years.

I guess Gregor was talking to someone who proposed we trade Keith to a team like Arizona for the purpose of buyout. Arizona would get hit with his 4.5M cap to get to the floor while only paying out like 1M in actual salary. Oilers can then sign him for a lower cap hit while Keith gets an increase in actual dollars earned from a new contract. If the Oilers add a sweetener like a 3rd or a couple late picks it would be a win, win, win.
 

Trafalgar Sadge Law

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Nov 8, 2007
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I dont see Keith retiring. If anything I think coming to Edmonton rejuvenated him a bit. He seemed to have fun and enjoy going deep in the playoffs after being on a crap team for 7 years.

I guess Gregor was talking to someone who proposed we trade Keith to a team like Arizona for the purpose of buyout. Arizona would get hit with his 4.5M cap to get to the floor while only paying out like 1M in actual salary. Oilers can then sign him for a lower cap hit while Keith gets an increase in actual dollars earned from a new contract. If the Oilers add a sweetener like a 3rd or a couple late picks it would be a win, win, win.
Or we could dump him and like. Not sign one of the worst transition defenders in the NHL at a high risk of getting randomly dinged by the NHL for cap circumvention, re-sign Kulak, and get a real top 4 dman instead?

Also Ken Holland can't tell how bad this contract is. That's why he paid positive assets for it. He's begging Keith to come back at full cap hit as we speak.
 

Behind Enemy Lines

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The @Fourier Keith cap dump to Arizona and buy out seems to be a perfect scenario that delivers a win win win with the Oil resigning Keith for a more realistic contact I'd speculate in the Kris Russell veteran range of $1.2 million. Arizona's GM, a top amateur scout background is in prime rebuild mode gobbling up draft picks to build its organizational pipeline likely to compete with the hopeful new building project in Tempe.

The Oiler first round would have been more attractive low 20's but I wonder if there might be a Keith deal around an exchange of draft picks. Something like the Oilers #29 pick for a Coyote 2nd round pick (one of 4 they have) and their 3rd round pick. Idealistically, the Oil try for 2 mid-round Coyotes 2nd round picks (#43 and #45) but I'm skeptical the Yotes GM would give up that draft collateral.

The Oil free up massive cap hit and move down with a second pick added with the first 97 picks of a fairly wildly 2022 post covid amateur draft. The Coyotes get another first round pedigree pick and some hopeful buzz selling a Stephen King-esque Deadzone short-term two to three year move into a college arena.

EDIT: Oil leverage this cap gold into plug and play NHL talent to help now in effort to hopefully solidify the winning window opened up with this year's playoff run.
 
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SwedishFire

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Why does a Kulak resign takes that long time? I fear the worst....

Kane is amybe No1 priority, but not so likely. Kulak resigning is more lkiklet, and a good one.

If he rsigns, I dont put priority to adding a defender. Goalie and forwards has blanks to fill. 1 goalie ,1 top 6 fwd, 1 middle 6 fwd, 1 speedy forechecking bottom 6 er
 

Fourier

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Fully expecting the league to announce that the trade/buyout/original team signs move will be considered cap circumvention as soon as word gets out the Oilers are serious about doing it.
Even if that was the case, if Keith was open to it you could still trade him for a buyout and let him sign somewhere else. At this point he is simply not worth his cap hit and it may prevent moves that are in the long term interest of the club.
 

oobga

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Aug 1, 2003
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Even if that was the case, if Keith was open to it you could still trade him for a buyout and let him sign somewhere else. At this point he is simply not worth his cap hit and it may prevent moves that are in the long term interest of the club.

For sure that would be good. Just anything unconventional that would give the Oilers a straight cap benefit, even if not stated in rules it is not allowed. NHL showed their hand preemptively announcing that they would rather anger the NHLPA and make 3.4 M of cap space vanish into thin air than give it to the Oilers if Keith retires.
 
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Pucklington

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Seeing some tweets that he is retiring coming out in the last hour. No verified accounts, but interesting to note.
 

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