GDT: Ducks @ Sabres 11/2/2013 4:00PM PST

[Sojourn]

Ok there's 2 minuses, do you have excuses for the other 50???


A healthy beauch is better than Cam, plain and simple. Hence the Norris threads last year. Cam still has 5 blatant goals against him this year more than any other Dman on the team, that's dressing a 19 yr old playing 18 minutes a game and a small bodied offensive minded Dman, with less than 20 NHL
games experience.

That aside, ya, he looks good defensively, most of my criticisms are on his offense. the team needs it from him, they're are paying him for it.

There have been several posters that have liked Allen's play over Cam, but you go ahead and give him the crown you've been so eager to give him.

Again, I never said Sbisa would surpass Fowler, and that is hardly the genesis of my criticisms of Cam... No Soj, my genesis is from you, constantly politicking for him, over and over again.

"Other 50"? He's a -1 on the season, and this is the season we're talking about. If you have to go back over the course of his entire career to try to make your point, you've already reached too far. We're talking about Fowler, as he is now. Not last season. Not the one before. Now. Last season he wasn't our shutdown defenseman. Last season he wasn't our top dog on the blue line. And yes, he does make mistakes, but your 5 "blatant" goals crap is just that. Crap. I'd love for you to try to prove that, not only is he blatantly at fault for 5 goals against, but that no other defenseman can match that number. I can tell you right now, Beauchemin would probably have him beat. He's made some brutal decisions this season that have lead to goals.

As for Beauchemin, we all thought he was awesome last season, but people here also recognized it was almost certainly not a performance he'd be able to duplicate. It was a career year for him. He deserves all the credit he got last season for his play, but if people here thought he would consistently be that good, we wouldn't have people asking for a legit #1 defenseman. Beauchemin is what he is. He's a top pairing guy who gives you a crapload of minutes, but he isn't a #1 defenseman, and so he isn't going to consistently be in Norris discussion. He'll probably never be in Norris discussion again.

And yes, some people have suggested Allen has been better. You want to know who clearly disagrees? Boudreau. Right now Cam wears the crown, because he's the one Boudreau leans on. I also think if we made a poll right now, about who our best defenseman has been this season, that it ends up being between Fowler and Beauchemin. Not Allen, Beauchemin. Allen has been great for Anaheim, but he's in a 3rd pairing role, with fairly sheltered minutes defensively. He makes up for this some with his PK minutes, but most of his minutes are of an easier variety. No one plays tougher minutes than Fowler right now.

Whatever your issue with me, you need to get over it.

 

[DaDucks*]

"Other 50"? He's a -1 on the season, and this is the season we're talking about. If you have to go back over the course of his entire career to try to make your point, you've already reached too far. We're talking about Fowler, as he is now. Not last season. Not the one before. Now. Last season he wasn't our shutdown defenseman. Last season he wasn't our top dog on the blue line. And yes, he does make mistakes, but your 5 "blatant" goals crap is just that. Crap. I'd love for you to try to prove that, not only is he blatantly at fault for 5 goals against, but that no other defenseman can match that number. I can tell you right now, Beauchemin would probably have him beat. He's made some brutal decisions this season that have lead to goals.

As for Beauchemin, we all thought he was awesome last season, but people here also recognized it was almost certainly not a performance he'd be able to duplicate. It was a career year for him. He deserves all the credit he got last season for his play, but if people here thought he would consistently be that good, we wouldn't have people asking for a legit #1 defenseman. Beauchemin is what he is. He's a top pairing guy who gives you a crapload of minutes, but he isn't a #1 defenseman, and so he isn't going to consistently be in Norris discussion. He'll probably never be in Norris discussion again.

And yes, some people have suggested Allen has been better. You want to know who clearly disagrees? Boudreau. Right now Cam wears the crown, because he's the one Boudreau leans on. I also think if we made a poll right now, about who our best defenseman has been this season, that it ends up being between Fowler and Beauchemin. Not Allen, Beauchemin. Allen has been great for Anaheim, but he's in a 3rd pairing role, with fairly sheltered minutes defensively. He makes up for this some with his PK minutes, but most of his minutes are of an easier variety. No one plays tougher minutes than Fowler right now.

Whatever your issue with me, you need to get over it.

This is what I'm talking about. Beauch not even a year removed from his career year and you say "well, it's not fair to expect that again from him, it's Cammy time"

A healthy Beauch with Lindholm??? Could be something really special.

I'm bringing balance, like what you tried to do with eenok

 

[Sojourn]

This is what I'm talking about. Beauch not even a year removed from his career year and you say "well, it's not fair to expect that again from him, it's Cammy time"

A healthy Beauch with Lindholm??? Could be something really special.

Yeah, because it's not like we wouldn't know a career year when we saw one, right? It's not like we just saw the same thing with Visnovsky. Lubo was brilliant for us that one year, and he and Lydman were one of the better D pairings in the league. That didn't stop us from recognizing exactly what that was: A career year, that he would probably not be able to reproduce.

Edit: Balance requires objectivity, DaDucks. You offer none. I didn't just blindly trash Vatanen. What I did was try to offer a more realistic assessment of Vatanen's play, and how he would fit. You offer none of that.

 

[DaDucks*]

Yeah, because it's not like we wouldn't know a career year when we saw one, right? It's not like we just saw the same thing with Visnovsky. Lubo was brilliant for us that one year, and he and Lydman were one of the better D pairings in the league. That didn't stop us from recognizing exactly what that was: A career year, that he would probably not be able to reproduce.

Edit: Balance requires objectivity, DaDucks. You offer none.

Oh yeah, obviously that applies here, my bad. Lol, even your own buddies on here are calling you out, "sojgo" was it?..... We are about 15 games out of a Fowler addiction intervention for u..

Edit: sorry u don't find me objective. When I enter a debate I don't find things that other players have done, repackage it, and apply it to my argument. My brain doesn't work that way.

 

[Sojourn]

Oh yeah, obviously that applies here, my bad. Lol, even your own buddies on here are calling you out, "sojgo" was it?..... We are about 15 games out of a Fowler addiction intervention for u..

Edit: sorry u don't find me objective. When I enter a debate I don't find things that other players have done, repackage it, and apply it to my argument. My brain doesn't work that way.

So, you don't look at historical precedent when trying to extrapolate the future?

That seems unwise, since that's one of the best ways to determine what will likely occur. It's logic and probability.

 

[Ducksgo*]

Oh yeah, obviously that applies here, my bad. Lol, even your own buddies on here are calling you out, "sojgo" was it?..... We are about 15 games out of a Fowler addiction intervention for u..

Edit: sorry u don't find me objective. When I enter a debate I don't find things that other players have done, repackage it, and apply it to my argument. My brain doesn't work that way.

Hopefully you are being sarcastic
I am not a buddy of Sojourn, please
Do not include me in that sojgo reference you just made. But when he makes a point I will stand upto it. even though I disagree with him 99% of the time.

 

[Sojourn]

I believe he was referring to Eddie's sarcastic reference a little while back.

 

[DaDucks*]

So, you don't look at historical precedent when trying to extrapolate the future?

That seems unwise, since that's one of the best ways to determine what will likely occur. It's logic and probability.

No, I concentrate on the individual.
Most recently DVM brought up that Duncan Keith had similar struggles to Cam at his age, as well as Scotty. There's room for optimism off that, but not one to finish or build a debate off of. Now your an expert on identifying players peaks because recently you've seen the heights of Lydman and Vish... You might be right, but your awfully quick to come to that conclusion on such a warrior of a defenseman.

So not only are you quick to summarize beauch, your not open to a debate on whether or not a healthy beauch slightly below his peak (healthy) could compete for his #1 rank.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

I believe he was referring to Eddie's sarcastic reference a little while back.

Just to clear things up, I made that comment when Sojourn gushed about Magnus in a very Ducksgo kind of way. It was a joke.

I'm done with all this Fowler talk. I'd rather search for the end of the internet than go down that road any more.

But here are the reasons our defense hasn't been as bad as most of us expected...

Fowler continues to improve his defense
Allen looks like a different guy this year
Lovejoy continues to play above the 6/7 label he came here with
Lindholm has played like a solid top 4 D man as a rookie
Beach hasn't been too bad coming back early
Sami hasn't been a disaster

Did I miss anything?

 

[duckaroosky]

 

[Sojourn]

No, I concentrate on the individual.
Most recently DVM brought up that Duncan Keith had similar struggles to Cam at his age, as well as Scotty. There's room for optimism off that, but not one to finish or build a debate off of. Now your an expert on identifying players peaks because recently you've seen the heights of Lydman and Vish... You might be right, but your awfully quick to come to that conclusion on such a warrior of a defenseman.

So not only are you quick to summarize beauch, your not open to a debate on whether or not a healthy beauch slightly below his peak (healthy) could compete for his #1 rank.

Blatantly false. I said no such thing. I said that I think Fowler deserves the crown until someone takes it from him. If that's a healthy Beauchemin, then it's a healthy Beauchemin, but to suggest I'm not even willing to debate the possibility? That's a bunch of crap.

And no one "finished" the debate by bringing up Keith or Niedermayer. The entire reason they were brought up was to point out the unrealistic expectations associated with 21 year old Fowler, and that even Norris winners need to grow into that role... and I don't think anyone here expects Fowler to be a Norris winner.

I believe it was AngelDuck who has repeatedly said that some of the expectations surrounding Fowler are getting kind of ridiculous. He's 21 years old, and is currently in the role of our #1 defenseman(and I don't think anyone here actually considers him a #1 defenseman, but he's certainly got the job of our top D right now). I also don't think people here are suggesting we're satisfied with his offensive numbers. Rather, when you give them some context, it isn't quite as bad as it seems. He's in a shutdown role, with Ben Lovejoy, and playing the majority of his even strength minutes with Anaheim's 3rd line(aka the shutdown line). In other words, his offensive opportunities have actually been kind of slim at even strength. The PP is another matter, and that's just been ugly all-around.

And yeah, I'm with Eddie. This conversation is clearly going no where, and it's well past being old. But, DaDucks, if you're going to try so hard to argue against the points I'm making, you should actually read those points. You're trying to argue things I've never, ever said.

 

[Ducksgo*]

Well SoCal still loves you Roosky ms Lakewood. People are
enjoying the debates

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

Well SoCal still loves you Roosky ms Lakewood. People are
enjoying the debates

Kind of nice you get to sit this one out huh?

 

[duckaroosky]

Well SoCal still loves you Roosky ms Lakewood. People are
enjoying the debates

I guess I just don't get how there can be so much hate after a win.

 

[Ducksgo*]

Super solid chick DVM. Fair warning

 

[Sojourn]

Better watch out, DVM. Sounds like someone has eyes for roosky.

 

[Dr Johnny Fever]

Better watch out, DVM. Sounds like someone has eyes for roosky.

Well, it would take all this arguing in a new direction. We are quite the dysfunctional bunch these days.

I guess that's what winning does for you.

 

[mightyquack]

Reading this thread, not sure if we won 6-3, or lost 10-0.

 

[camshaft]

Guys.

We are tied for the league lead in total points with a third of our lineup on injured reserve. We should be celebrating and supporting the team's remarkable effort, instead of looking to criticize it's flaws. Let's enjoy these victories while we are going good.

In regards to Fowler, how many 21 year old defensemen are playing the role of their team's number 1 d-man? It is something special, and Cam is improving every year. Cam has been placing the focus of his improvement on his defensive game, and it has clearly shown. Does he have room to grow? Most certainly, but typically d-men don't hit their peak until they turn 26 to 28 years old, which leads me to conclude that Cam's game will be improving greatly over the next five to seven years. Once he is confident in his defensive game, he will work on his offensive game, which is his natural strength, so I would expect to see great growth in that in the next couple years.

Cam realizes he is a defense man, so he has put a priority in his defensive responsibilities first. If Cam is given the responsibilities of a number 1 d-man at 21 years old, I would expect him to be in the upper echelon of defense men in the future. He has shown no signs of hitting a plateau of other offensive d-men in the recent past, where their offense has stagnated while their lack of defensive skills are a concern for their teams, such as Tyler Meyers, Justin Schultz, and some Senator fans are even criticizing Eric Karlsson .

 

[Fighter]

Mandatory post after a win

 

[Ducks Nation*]

Mandatory post after a win

 

[Lord Flashheart]

Cam Fowler is garbage.

PLAYER|AGE|GP|ES TOI|ES GA on
Fowler Cam|21.332|15|16:38|8
Doughty Drew|23.329|15|19:02|14
Pietrangelo Alex|23.288|12|19:07|6
Ekman-Larsson Oliver|22.108|15|17:44|8

 

[HanSolo]

Reading this page sure was fun.

Sojourn needing a Fowler obsession intervention was a real treat to read.

Like really there's a reason why I don't post around here as much as I used to and it's the same reason why I left the nightmare that Allducks became. The what have you done for me lately scapegoating after EVERY GAME is a real drag. And most of the time it's not even justified. Fowler is doing just fine for a defender his age.

EDIT: BTW, Fowler had four blocked shots against Buffalo. Must really not know how to play defense.

 

[quentez]

Penner is 3rd in the league in +/-. That's how useful that stat is (Penner has been good but his +/- certainly doesn't mean anything other than he's on the ice for goals for and has played mostly sheltered minutes outside of his time on the 1st line).

Not defending the +/- here, but Penner has been a terrific two-way guy on every line he has played. Of all the pleasant surprises so far this season, his play (and Perreault) is the one that stands out the most for me.

 

[Vinegar Strokes]

Not defending the +/- here, but Penner has been a terrific two-way guy on every line he has played. Of all the pleasant surprises so far this season, his play (and Perreault) is the one that stands out the most for me.

On Perry's breakaway goal, Penner was the first guy back in the defensive zone who shielded the puck so that Hampus could make a pass to Getzlaf, who then made the long stretch pass.

Penner's effort level has been very good so far this season. Hopefully it continues through this season and through the rest of his career.

Also, this board is bass ackwards. We're tied for 2nd in the entire league, even though we've lost the most (2nd?) man games to injury. If you knew nothing about hockey and read this board, you'd think the Ducks were too soft to play in this league and were in dead last with a garbage defense.

It's also adorable that certain posters don't post after a win or during a win, but will take every opportunity to post asinine responses to player injuries.