GDT: Ducks at Sharks 03/20/2014, 7:30pm.

[Leidi J]

LA is simply a better team than us. I'm sorry that most don't want to hear that, but it's true. They got even better with Gaborik and Sutter is finally playing his kids.

If we play LA, particularly without Hertl, I just don't think we can win. With any other team, I feel confident we can win or make it a series. Avoiding LA is important. All this macho "you gotta beat the best to be the best" crap is just dumb. LA faced Vancouver without Daniel Sedin and St. Louis without Pietrangelo but their Stanley Cup isn't less meaningful. To win the Cup, you have to get lucky, and avoiding LA for as long as possible would be the best form of luck we could get.

That may be your opinion, but don't act like it's fact.

I'm not deluded or such a homer that I think we'll just trample over everyone on our way to winning the cup or that we wouldn't be better off avoiding LA if that's possible. But If we do meet them, I don't for a second think that LA is the hands down better team. Their offense is spotty at best and weak at it's worst. The bottom of their depth is questionable on both offense and defense. They complain about Regehr the same we do about our guys. Just because we watch every single sharks game and are able to disect and nitpick every single little flaw in this team... it gives some people a weirdly skewed perspective around here.

You're free to feel that way. And I respect your opinion on a lot of things regarding the sharks, usually agreeing. But to spout this like anyone that says otherwise is just flat out wrong is obnoxious and arrogant.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

That may be your opinion, but don't act like it's fact.

I'm not deluded or such a homer that I think we'll just trample over everyone on our way to winning the cup. But I don't for a second think that LA is the hands down better team. Their offense is spotty at best and weak at it's worst. The bottom of their depth is questionable on both offense and defense. They complain about Regehr the same we do about our guys. Just because we watch every single sharks game and are able to disect and nitpick every single little flaw in this team... it gives some people a weirdly skewed perspective around here.

You're free to feel that way. But to spout it like anyone that says otherwise is just flat out wrong is obnoxious and arrogant.

I agree. The two teams are going to meet one way or another. Hopefully the Sharks are healthy this time.

 

[hockeyball]

That may be your opinion, but don't act like it's fact.

I'm not deluded or such a homer that I think we'll just trample over everyone on our way to winning the cup or that we wouldn't be better off avoiding LA if that's possible. But If we do meet them, I don't for a second think that LA is the hands down better team. Their offense is spotty at best and weak at it's worst. The bottom of their depth is questionable on both offense and defense. They complain about Regehr the same we do about our guys. Just because we watch every single sharks game and are able to disect and nitpick every single little flaw in this team... it gives some people a weirdly skewed perspective around here.

You're free to feel that way. And I respect your opinion on a lot of things regarding the sharks, usually agreeing. But to spout this like anyone that says otherwise is just flat out wrong is obnoxious and arrogant.

I don't agree they are definitively a better team, I think the Sharks and Kings are VERY close in talent, and it's going to come down to who wants it more, and luck. I think they are so close that skill really isn't going to be the difference maker.

Also, I think the Sharks get under the Kings skin more than vice-versa. That could make a big difference too.

In the end, can we beat the Kings? Absolutely we can, it certainly wouldn't be perceived as an upset if we did, everyone knows it's too close to call.

Which is exactly why we should avoid them as long as possible. Both because physically it is likely end up a series of attrition and mentally the guys likely see it as their biggest hurdle. If they get past it too early they could start coasting. I'd rather they be fired up to get there, beat them, and then have only the Finals/Conf Finals left to deal with to keep them focused.

 

[sharkcity]

I agree. The two teams are going to meet one way or another. Hopefully the Sharks are healthy this time.

And hopefully Bettman doens't have a vendetta against Torres anymore.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

And hopefully Bettman doens't have a vendetta against Torres anymore.

Bettman has nothing do with it. Its Shanahan and his ridiculous agenda. How can James Neal cross m check someone in the head and just get a fine? He's way worse than Torres.

 

[Mattb124]

I know the Kings are a good playoff team and the regular season is not necessarily indicative of their ability, but I think folks are giving them more credit than they are due. They are neck and neck with the Wild in the standings right now and 15 points behind the Sharks.

 

[Juxtaposer]

That may be your opinion, but don't act like it's fact.

I'm not deluded or such a homer that I think we'll just trample over everyone on our way to winning the cup or that we wouldn't be better off avoiding LA if that's possible. But If we do meet them, I don't for a second think that LA is the hands down better team. Their offense is spotty at best and weak at it's worst. The bottom of their depth is questionable on both offense and defense. They complain about Regehr the same we do about our guys. Just because we watch every single sharks game and are able to disect and nitpick every single little flaw in this team... it gives some people a weirdly skewed perspective around here.

You're free to feel that way. And I respect your opinion on a lot of things regarding the sharks, usually agreeing. But to spout this like anyone that says otherwise is just flat out wrong is obnoxious and arrogant.

Sorry, but I just don't think you're giving LA enough credit. Their defense is bar none the best in the league. Their depth is excellent. Muzzin and Martinez are both quality top-4 defensemen that everyone underestimates. Yes, Regehr is bad and Greene isn't great. But they have Doughty who may be the single best defenseman on both sides of the puck in the league, plus Voynov, Mitchell, Martinez, and Muzzin. They have much much better depth than we do. And up front, Sutter is finally playing his great young kids like Toffoli, Pearson, and Vey. Gaborik is going to light it up with Kopitar. They're so deep, Mike Richards has been playing on the 4th line at times. Brown may be having a crap year, but we know what he's capable. And we all know how Quick has historically played in the playoffs. This is the best team in the league, who don't have the record simply because Quick is meh in the regular season, injuries to defensemen, Sutter refusing to play his kids, and other strange lineup decisions.

I'm as optimistic about this incarnation of the Sharks as anyone, but the Kings are better. I promise, I watch plenty of Kings games, I'm not speaking out of my ass. I'm just trying to be candid.

Bettman has nothing do with it. Its Shanahan and his ridiculous agenda. How can James Neal cross m check someone in the head and just get a fine? He's way worse than Torres.

Seriously. I ****ing loathe James Neal. He's maybe the dirtiest player in the league but he always gets away with his crap.

 

[Coily]

Bettman has nothing do with it. Its Shanahan and his ridiculous agenda. How can James Neal cross m check someone in the head and just get a fine? He's way worse than Torres.

Repeat offender and both to the head of the opponent.

5k fine was ridiculous

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Sorry, but I just don't think you're giving LA enough credit. Their defense is bar none the best in the league. Their depth is excellent. Muzzin and Martinez are both quality top-4 defensemen that everyone underestimates. Yes, Regehr is bad and Greene isn't great. But they have Doughty who may be the single best defenseman on both sides of the puck in the league, plus Voynov, Mitchell, Martinez, and Muzzin. They have much much better depth than we do. And up front, Sutter is finally playing his great young kids like Toffoli, Pearson, and Vey. Gaborik is going to light it up with Kopitar. They're so deep, Mike Richards has been playing on the 4th line at times. Brown may be having a crap year, but we know what he's capable. And we all know how Quick has historically played in the playoffs. This is the best team in the league, who don't have the record simply because Quick is meh in the regular season, injuries to defensemen, Sutter refusing to play his kids, and other strange lineup decisions.

I'm as optimistic about this incarnation of the Sharks as anyone, but the Kings are better. I promise, I watch plenty of Kings games, I'm not speaking out of my ass. I'm just trying to be candid.



Seriously. I ****ing loathe James Neal. He's maybe the dirtiest player in the league but he always gets away with his crap.

Torres has always had a bum rap. Has he crossed the line with body checking? Yes but he isn't cross checking guys in the head or kneeing opposing players while they are on the ground. James Neal is out of control with that stuff.

 

[do0glas]

Richards has played on the fourth line because he isn't playing well. Has nothing to do with their depth.

Yes they have a great blue line and a goalie who turns up in the playoffs but offensively they are closer to a 1-2 line team than a 3 line team.

But series between us will be tough regardless. They are a great team. However I think you are discrediting the sharks quite a bit.

 

[Leidi J]

Sorry, but I just don't think you're giving LA enough credit. Their defense is bar none the best in the league. Their depth is excellent. Muzzin and Martinez are both quality top-4 defensemen that everyone underestimates. Yes, Regehr is bad and Greene isn't great. But they have Doughty who may be the single best defenseman on both sides of the puck in the league, plus Voynov, Mitchell, Martinez, and Muzzin. They have much much better depth than we do. And up front, Sutter is finally playing his great young kids like Toffoli, Pearson, and Vey. Gaborik is going to light it up with Kopitar. They're so deep, Mike Richards has been playing on the 4th line at times. Brown may be having a crap year, but we know what he's capable. And we all know how Quick has historically played in the playoffs. This is the best team in the league, who don't have the record simply because Quick is meh in the regular season, injuries to defensemen, Sutter refusing to play his kids, and other strange lineup decisions.

I'm as optimistic about this incarnation of the Sharks as anyone, but the Kings are better. I promise, I watch plenty of Kings games, I'm not speaking out of my ass. I'm just trying to be candid.

I disagree. I think you're overrating LA significantly. But that's not the point. I don't really feel the need to argue it. My point is that you keep saying stuff like the bolded as if your opinion about it is any more correct or relevant than mine or anyone else's here and that if you keep saying it with such certainty, that we should just shut up and agree with you. That whole reply is condescending in that you act as if there's absolutely no argument to be made to the contrary. That is far from the case. It's fine that you think the Kings are the flat out better team. But that doesn't make your opinion unequivocally right like you act like it is.

 

[Leidi J]

Richards has played on the fourth line because he isn't playing well. Has nothing to do with their depth.

Yes they have a great blue line and a goalie who turns up in the playoffs but offensively they are closer to a 1-2 line team than a 3 line team.

But series between us will be tough regardless. They are a great team. However I think you are discrediting the sharks quite a bit.

Something else I just looked up... people here talk about how we get no offense from our blue line and how that is bad news for the playoffs etc etc.

Kings defensemen: 20 goals, 118 points
Sharks defensemen: 29 goals, 137 points

If we're so screwed, then what are they? They're entire system which allows them to be so stout defensively is also not conducive to offensive production. Put on top of that that their forward depth in terms of skill and scoring is no where close to the Sharks... I really don't get it

Put on top of that that if they hadn't been screwed with the BS over the boards penalty in game 2 they would have beat LA in 5 games last year. Without Torres. Without Nieto (or Hertl if he's back). Without the improvements from Braun and Demers. Without the likes of Pavelski and Burns and others having career years...

I really don't want to argue back and forth comparing LA and SJ though. If/when we meet them in the playoffs there'll be plenty of time for that when it comes around. It's a waste of time and energy right now.

 

[Barrie22]

Something else I just looked up... people here talk about how we get no offense from our blue line and how that is bad news for the playoffs etc etc.

Kings defensemen: 20 goals, 118 points
Sharks defensemen: 29 goals, 137 points

If we're so screwed, then what are they? They're entire system which allows them to be so stout defensively is also not conducive to offensive production. Put on top of that that their forward depth in terms of skill and scoring is no where close to the Sharks... I really don't get it

Put on top of that that if they hadn't been screwed with the BS over the boards penalty in game 2 they would have beat LA in 5 games last year. Without Torres. Without Nieto (or Hertl if he's back). Without the improvements from Braun and Demers. Without the likes of Pavelski and Burns and others having career years...

I really don't want to argue back and forth comparing LA and SJ though. If/when we meet them in the playoffs there'll be plenty of time for that when it comes around. It's a waste of time and energy right now.

its because apparently they are the best possession team in the league. even if those possession numbers do not translate to goals, it still means they are the best team in the league.

 

[Fistfullofbeer]

its because apparently they are the best possession team in the league. even if those possession numbers do not translate to goals, it still means they are the best team in the league.

So possession numbers alone make them the best team in the league? That makes no sense. I understand the importance of puck possession but there is more than that to being the best team in the league.

Arguably, the lack of home ice in the LA series last year was the main reason we lost. We would have home ice this year plus an entirely different team than what we had last year. With or without Hertl our team is better this year than last. I am a lot more confident going into the playoffs this year than last. The Sharks can match up with any team in the league if they keep playing their brand of hockey.

 

[SHAR KS]

Kings the best team in the league? The ****. Bring them on, we have home ice this time.

 

[Timos Death Stare]

I disagree. I think you're overrating LA significantly. But that's not the point. I don't really feel the need to argue it. My point is that you keep saying stuff like the bolded as if your opinion about it is any more correct or relevant than mine or anyone else's here and that if you keep saying it with such certainty, that we should just shut up and agree with you. That whole reply is condescending in that you act as if there's absolutely no argument to be made to the contrary. That is far from the case. It's fine that you think the Kings are the flat out better team. But that doesn't make your opinion unequivocally right like you act like it is.

While I don't agree with everything you've said, I do feel like Jux can be super condescending at times - even when I agree with her. So yeah, I can feel what you say here... I do enjoy her debates though at times when she digs for the facts to back up her thoughts.

 

[hockeyball]

I disagree. I think you're overrating LA significantly. But that's not the point. I don't really feel the need to argue it. My point is that you keep saying stuff like the bolded as if your opinion about it is any more correct or relevant than mine or anyone else's here and that if you keep saying it with such certainty, that we should just shut up and agree with you. That whole reply is condescending in that you act as if there's absolutely no argument to be made to the contrary. That is far from the case. It's fine that you think the Kings are the flat out better team. But that doesn't make your opinion unequivocally right like you act like it is.

To be fair, when you learn to debate in tournaments or professionally (like a lawyer for instance, or a writer) you are taught not to weaken your argument with unnecessary statements like "I believe" or "In my opinion". That it is your opinion is implied, you are a saying it, prefacing an argument like that shows a lack of confidence in your opinion. What Jux is doing is perfectly fine and shouldn't be seen as arrogant or overconfident. I don't see it that way.

 

[Juxtaposer]

I apologize for coming off as rude or presumptuous (not my intention), but with the way LA has played since the break they are unstoppable, in my opinion. I just don't see how anyone can argue that we're better than them.

A couple of points:

1. Yes, their strong possession numbers are a big factor in my ranking of them, but far from the only one. I happen to think that Anze Kopitar is a top-5 player in the league (yes, I do think that much of him), I happen to think that Drew Doughty is the best defenseman in the league (yes,, I think that much of him). I happen to think that Justin Williams is a top-10 winger in the NHL. I happen to think that Jeff Carter is a top-5 goalscorer in the NHL. I think Marian Gaborik is an excellent top-6 winger who has a long track record of sustaining a high on-ice shooting percentage (something LA desperately needed). I think the world of Tyler Toffoli. I think Alec Martinez and Jake Muzzin are two of the most underrated defensemen in the league. I don't see a single hole on that team, if I'm being honest with you.

2. LJ, I have never ever ever once on here complained about production from our blueline (unless you're counting my concern about Boyle's EV point totals, but that's not really it).

3. It's not far to say that we're better with Torres and Nieto and Hertl and ignore that they acquired Gaborik (better than Torres) and have Pearson and Toffoli (fairly equal to Nieto and Hertl, respectively) and Hertl is injured.

 

[Leidi J]

I apologize for coming off as rude or presumptuous (not my intention), but with the way LA has played since the break they are unstoppable, in my opinion. I just don't see how anyone can argue that we're better than them.

A couple of points:

1. Yes, their strong possession numbers are a big factor in my ranking of them, but far from the only one. I happen to think that Anze Kopitar is a top-5 player in the league (yes, I do think that much of him), I happen to think that Drew Doughty is the best defenseman in the league (yes,, I think that much of him). I happen to think that Justin Williams is a top-10 winger in the NHL. I happen to think that Jeff Carter is a top-5 goalscorer in the NHL. I think Marian Gaborik is an excellent top-6 winger who has a long track record of sustaining a high on-ice shooting percentage (something LA desperately needed). I think the world of Tyler Toffoli. I think Alec Martinez and Jake Muzzin are two of the most underrated defensemen in the league. I don't see a single hole on that team, if I'm being honest with you.

2. LJ, I have never ever ever once on here complained about production from our blueline (unless you're counting my concern about Boyle's EV point totals, but that's not really it).

3. It's not far to say that we're better with Torres and Nieto and Hertl and ignore that they acquired Gaborik (better than Torres) and have Pearson and Toffoli (fairly equal to Nieto and Hertl, respectively) and Hertl is injured.

That is the problem. YOU think that Kopitar is a top 5 player. YOU think Doughty is the best defenseman. YOU think Williams is a top 10 winger. Etc Etc.

I think Kopitar is amazing defensively but lacks on the offensive upside compared to other contenders' top line centers. I think Doughty might be the most purely talented Dman in the league, but he also plays softer minutes than a lot of the other top Dmen. And as someone on twitter pointed out to me... he plays a ton of PP minutes and yet has almost the same number of even strength points as Vlasic does. I completely disagree on Williams (though he does always seem to hurt the Sharks so maybe if he got to play all 82 games against us lol). I think Muzzin plays super soft minutes on top of being propped up by playing next to Doughty and is in fact overrated by the stats community (which I consider myself a part of). I think their young guys are good and an upgrade for them. I like them a lot... but they're not producing points either right now. I see lots of holes, especially offensively.

The reason you can't see it is because you refuse to accept that your opinion is not the be all end all. You look at those players and you see the skills or potential. But you have to also look at the actual results and production and those things don't necessarily support everything you believe. Which is fine as I was saying. You're entitled to believe what you want. And maybe all that potential based on what you see as superior talent comes out in the playoffs and beats down all opposition. It could happen. But what could also happen is you could be wrong. And the fact that you can't acknowledge that you might be wrong, that you can't even bring yourself to see any point that contradicts your own is why I find your statements arrogant and presumptuous. You assume that your evaluation of the players or team is the only correct way to see it and you dismiss any differing view.

As far as LA being 'unstoppable' since the break... I really just don't know what you're seeing. Yes they look better and are scoring more since the break. But they've also played mostly abysmal defensive and possession teams.

Colorado (27th FF%, 14th GAA)
Calgary - twice (26th FF%, 25th GAA)
Carolina (25th FF%, 19th GAA)
Montreal - without Price (21st FF%, 10th GAA)
Winnipeg (18th FF%, 21st GAA)
Edmonton (28th FF%, 28th GAA)
Toronto (29th FF%, 26th GAA)
Anaheim (16th FF%, 7th GAA)
Phoenix (17th FF%, 17th GAA)
Washington (22nd FF%, 22nd GAA)

It's nice for them that they've been scoring more. And it will probably give them some confidence they had lost when they went through that major drought. But they haven't faced a single team in the top half of the league possession wise since the break. And in the only 2 games facing a top 10 defense, the opponent was missing their top goalie (Price) and LA still only scored 2 goals or LA only scored 1 goal and lost (Anaheim).

So no. I absolutely do not see what you see. In fact I think you are letting your admiration of some of their excellent individual players (and they have several top players) cloud your perception of the team as a whole. And conversely are underrating the Sharks because we are so familiar with them that we sometimes see the flaws way more strongly than the assets.

 

[Evincar]

Justin Williams a top 10 winger?

And the Kings do have a major weakness, they cant score.

 

[Coily]

Justin Williams a top 10 winger?

And the Kings do have a major weakness, they cant score.

They don't need to.

Just like last year they will just interfere and hold while scoring 2-3 goals.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Or kick the net off when the Sharks have the puck in their zone.

 

[Juxtaposer]

LJ, as you can imagine, my opinion is more prominent when considering my opinion than anyone else's opinion.

As for Kopitar's offense, have you seen his numbers? He's fine offensively. He's as good or better than any Sharks offensively outside of Jumbo. And his numbers will improve now that he has someone who can actually put the puck in the net on his LW (ie not Dustin Brown).

 

[Barrie22]

LJ, as you can imagine, my opinion is more prominent when considering my opinion than anyone else's opinion.

As for Kopitar's offense, have you seen his numbers? He's fine offensively. He's as good or better than any Sharks offensively outside of Jumbo. And his numbers will improve now that he has someone who can actually put the puck in the net on his LW (ie not Dustin Brown).

he is pretty much a 60-70 point player. which even in the new dead puck era we are going through is not even remotely close to a top 5 player. i don't care how good defensively he is (he is not that good to make up the ground in his offensive game).

 

[hockeyball]

he is pretty much a 60-70 point player. which even in the new dead puck era we are going through is not even remotely close to a top 5 player. i don't care how good defensively he is (he is not that good to make up the ground in his offensive game).

He's excellent defensively.

However, he is slightly over-rated. I watch the Kings quite a bit, and they are my 2nd favorite team. Kopitar is awesome, but he's not a top-5 player consistently. He has spurts of top-5 play, but he just doesn't do it consistently enough to truly be a top-5 player. I'd put him as a top-15 forward maybe.

Gaborik is just going to end up hurt, and he sucks defensively. Doughty is fantastic, but again, he's not super consistent. He's prone to long stretch of mediocre play. Which is again why I can't say he's the best d-man in the NHL. He is top-5 though, top-10 at worst.

A lot of that is splitting hairs, but in the end my original point still stands. The difference in skill between the Kings and Sharks is not big enough to likely be the deciding factor. It will come down to will and luck. Who wants it more, and who gets the bounces.