Proposal: Duchene to Pittsburgh

[The Old Master]

If JR wasn't willing too offer Bonino $4 million or so for a #3C, Then why would he trade for Duchene making $6 million for two more years as a #3C that's too much money.

as long as you guys don't want to move aa. we have to look else where, and Duchene is more a finished product......bonino wasn't worth the money.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

Yeah, he's so bad that he was playing in a top-4 role on a back to back cup winner.

Saying Maatta isn't good is just stupid and wrong, that's what it comes down to.



Also this.

And Maatta playing in the Top 4 almost cost them the cup.


The homerism here is getting ridiculous with Maatta I dont even understand it anymore.

We all watched the Stanley cup playoffs. We all watched him get burned on a nightly basiss and be the direct cause for many goals and many quality scoring chances because he was fighting a tier above his weight class.

Like I dont get it, why do you guys insist on lying about the guy. We all saw him play. And none of us are Joe Sakic. You dont need to lie to us in the hopes that some how it will lead to the Pens fleecing Sakic into thinking Maatta is a good Dman because the fans have preached that he is to a bunch of other fans.

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

Unlike most Avs fans I don't mind Maatta. I'd be happy to have him on our 2nd pairing, which currently has Barberio on it.

But I think where the idea of Maatta to Colorado breaks down is when you add to him for Duchene. There isn't any reasonable package Pittsburgh assembles centered around Maatta that makes it worth it to the Avs to move Duchene.

 

[Empoleon8771]

And Maatta playing in the Top 4 almost cost them the cup.


The homerism here is getting ridiculous with Maatta I dont even understand it anymore.

We all watched the Stanley cup playoffs. We all watched him get burned on a nightly basiss and be the direct cause for many goals and many quality scoring chances because he was fighting a tier above his weight class.

Like I dont get it, why do you guys insist on lying about the guy. We all saw him play. And none of us are Joe Sakic. You dont need to lie to us in the hopes that some how it will lead to the Pens fleecing Sakic into thinking Maatta is a good Dman because the fans have preached that he is to a bunch of other fans.

Or maybe you're just wrong. Maybe that's the case. You're flat out talking out of your ass here. You're the one lying here.

"Burned on a nightly basis", you're showing you didn't watch the playoffs at all. He got burned twice in the entire playoffs, once against Ryan and once against Sissons. That's it. You're 100% wrong here, and I think Penguins fans have a better idea how good Maatta is than you do. I find your last paragraph hilarious, no one is trying to sell you Maatta here. I don't want to trade Maatta, I'm saying you're full of **** and have no idea what you're talking about. A guy doesn't finish +8 in a playoff run if he's bleeding goals left and right. A guy doesn't play 20:37 a night on a cup winner if he's bleeding goals left and right. You're the person who's wrong here, and it's hilarious how arrogant you are when you think you're right.

 

[66-30-33]

Duchene isn't worth trading for as he isn't worth what Sakic wants, I'll take Soderberg though. Pens need a really good 3C, not a meh one.

Guentzel, Sprong, Maatta, 1st...yeah ok Sakic.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Since I'm bored, I'm actually going to go and prove that Maatta wasn't "getting burned on a nightly basis" in the playoffs. In the first round, he was on the ice for 3 ES goals against. In the second round, he was on the ice ice for 3 ES goals against. In the 3rd round, he was on the ice for 5 ES goals against. In the finals, he was on the ice for 3 ES goals against. That puts him at 14 ES goals against in 25 games (most of which I would not blame him on), and with him playing 439:20 at ES throughout the playoffs, that's an ES GA/60 of 1.91. So basically, you're wrong. Glad we cleared that up.

From watching every single ES goal the Penguins gave up in the playoffs, I'd blame about 5 goals on Maatta. There were the 2 ones where he just got hilariously beat and then there were 3 others where he didn't box out his man well and they scored on a rebound or deflection due to it.

 

[DearDiary]

Duchene to Pittsburgh will never happen. Columbus easily tops that offer to keep him away from the Penguins.

Many people seem to ignore those kinds of arguments. CBJ would rather overpay for Duchene than let their 1st round matchup get a good player. CBJ letting the Pens get Duchene despite having better assets, would be saying that they play this season to lose

 

[brewski420]

And Maatta playing in the Top 4 almost cost them the cup.


The homerism here is getting ridiculous with Maatta I dont even understand it anymore.

We all watched the Stanley cup playoffs. We all watched him get burned on a nightly basiss and be the direct cause for many goals and many quality scoring chances because he was fighting a tier above his weight class.

Like I dont get it, why do you guys insist on lying about the guy. We all saw him play. And none of us are Joe Sakic. You dont need to lie to us in the hopes that some how it will lead to the Pens fleecing Sakic into thinking Maatta is a good Dman because the fans have preached that he is to a bunch of other fans.

You stopped watching hockey in April quite obviously because everything you say is total nonsense. Pens fans will gladly keep Maatta unless a very good return comes back. No selling or lying needed just the truth.

 

[Peat]

Sakic doesn't like the one year wonder type players. He had an interview with TSN (would've posted it if I could've found it again) and said that a player had to play well for 2 years for him to have his undoubted trust. Guentzel may not fit that picture. Sheary may be the better bet.

Sheary doesn't have much more track record than Guentzel at this point and what he does is probably outweighed in the minds of many by less pedigree, size, time away from Crosby, and from what I remember, consistency. But if people would rather have Sheary, sure! Suits the Pens just fine

If JR wasn't willing too offer Bonino $4 million or so for a #3C, Then why would he trade for Duchene making $6 million for two more years as a #3C that's too much money.

Term was the issue with Bonino, not cap hit. He's not against paying big for someone if he thinks the contract is worth it.


edit:

p.s. I love you Empoleon

If other people don't see it then fair enough, but Maatta has been very defensively solid for us in pretty much every situation that doesn't involve him having a 1 on 1 with a lot of room.

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

Since I'm bored, I'm actually going to go and prove that Maatta wasn't "getting burned on a nightly basis" in the playoffs.

Interesting...

That puts him at 14 ES goals against in 25 games (most of which I would not blame him on), and with him playing 439:20 at ES throughout the playoffs, that's an ES GA/60 of 1.91. So basically, you're wrong. Glad we cleared that up.

Where does this prove anything? Not that I'm trying to stir anything up, but being on the ice for 1/3 of your team's EVS goals against and playing on the "top pairing" (according to other Pens fans) isn't exactly special or all that great. It basically means the Pens defensive pairings all played relatively equally in terms of performance (assuming it was an even distribution... not looking the others up).

Objectively, Maatta didn't do that great. Relative to his skill level, he did well. Which means as a 2nd pairing defender he bailed the Pens out in a pinch on the top pairing. His performance on a cup winning team was adequate enough to not ruin their cup chances. Once that sinks in, you can understand why people are not enamored with him.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Objectively, Maatta didn't do that great. Relative to his skill level, he did well. Which means as a 2nd pairing defender he bailed the Pens out in a pinch on the top pairing. His performance on a cup winning team was adequate enough to not ruin their cup chances. Once that sinks in, you can understand why people are not enamored with him.

Pretty sure his post was in direct response to this post below, which quite frankly comes across as one of the least knowledgeable posts on this subject I've read on these boards.

It's one thing to not want Maatta as the key piece in any Duchene deal -- perfectly fine opinion. It's another to be extremely hyperbolic about how Maatta played and come across looking as though you have zero idea how to analyze a hockey player.

And Maatta playing in the Top 4 almost cost them the cup.

We all watched the Stanley cup playoffs. We all watched him get burned on a nightly basiss and be the direct cause for many goals and many quality scoring chances because he was fighting a tier above his weight class.

 

[Stad]

Sakic wouldn't be making a good trade using Maatta as the centerpiece for Duchene. Pittsburgh really doesn't have the assets to get a deal like this done. They don't have a young #1D to use. Maatta isn't bad, but he's not good. Doumlin would be better to use. His play is better than that of Maattas.

Kessel would be the better suitor although Pittsburgh isn't likely to ship him. Only reason I say this is because of salary restraints. Plus Kessel doesn't fit what Sakic wants.

Maybe along the lines of

Sheary/Guentzel + Doumlin + ?

Duchene

Sakic doesn't like the one year wonder type players. He had an interview with TSN (would've posted it if I could've found it again) and said that a player had to play well for 2 years for him to have his undoubted trust. Guentzel may not fit that picture. Sheary may be the better bet.

I wouldn't trade Guentzel alone for Duchene.

 

[Internet Explorer]

Do not want Duchene on the Pens as a 3C. Too much money for a meh player. Rather Soderberg, better fit.

 

[Peat]

Interesting...



Where does this prove anything? Not that I'm trying to stir anything up, but being on the ice for 1/3 of your team's EVS goals against and playing on the "top pairing" (according to other Pens fans) isn't exactly special or all that great. It basically means the Pens defensive pairings all played relatively equally in terms of performance (assuming it was an even distribution... not looking the others up).

Objectively, Maatta didn't do that great. Relative to his skill level, he did well. Which means as a 2nd pairing defender he bailed the Pens out in a pinch on the top pairing. His performance on a cup winning team was adequate enough to not ruin their cup chances. Once that sinks in, you can understand why people are not enamored with him.

We basically ran three 2nd pairings - defence against commitee. I don't know who was getting the hardest match-ups (probably Dumo-Hainsey as they got the worst zone starts) but I do know that was Maatta-Daley during the regular season.

And, yeah, 2nd pairing defender who took some top pairing duties adequately with the team in a pinch is a pretty fair description of where Maatta was during the play-offs. Which is, as pointed out, a far cry from the description given elsewhere.

 

[mikeyp24]

Also why did the Maata break down only do ES goals? He could have been responsible for giving up non ES goals as well. Goals are goals so it seems disingenuous to not just do goals he was on ice for each series and break it down. This is why I hate advanced stats because you can create any stat you want to try and make it seem like a player is better or worse then they are by cherry picking situations and why I'm more of a watch them play and use the stats you would see in a 1993 box score. Advanced stats don't work well in team sports like the NBA and NHL. It's perfect for baseball because it is an extremely individual performance sport but there are to many outside fasters that need to be put into context if you use it in hockey. Watching Maata play he has talent but he has gotten slower and his injuries have clearly halted his progression. He is still young but will he get better or has all the time off made it so this is his prime?

As an outside fan I'd say there isn't much of a deal you can make it Maata is the main piece. I agree with the Avs fans with their evaluation of him. Now I'm sure if it's like Sprong, Maata, and 1st thats a fair offer. A decent prospect a 1st and a #4 D for 2 years of Duchene is more then reasonable but that offer also easily is beat by every other team in the running.

 

[Riptide]

Where does this prove anything? Not that I'm trying to stir anything up, but being on the ice for 1/3 of your team's EVS goals against and playing on the "top pairing" (according to other Pens fans) isn't exactly special or all that great. It basically means the Pens defensive pairings all played relatively equally in terms of performance (assuming it was an even distribution... not looking the others up).

Objectively, Maatta didn't do that great. Relative to his skill level, he did well. Which means as a 2nd pairing defender he bailed the Pens out in a pinch on the top pairing. His performance on a cup winning team was adequate enough to not ruin their cup chances. Once that sinks in, you can understand why people are not enamored with him.

Odd... you'd think when you have a blueline like Colorado does, you'd be enamored with damn near every good young D.

But whatever... if he doesn't work for you, that's fine, because Pen fans are more than happy to keep him.

 

[Dying Alive]

These threads always go the same way. A Pens fan offers a package for Duchene that is not seen as a good enough package. It usually involves Maatta. Some (not all) Avs fans then spend the rest of the thread acting as if Maatta is the worst player ever to put on skates and Pens fans defend him.

Can we just not at this point? It's not the offer Avs fans are looking for. Maatta is still a good young D man and insisting he was bad in the playoffs doesn't make it true. There's no point in posting his actual stats or that he was actually good in the playoffs to people who don't want to hear it. The Avs aren't even looking likely to trade Duchene at this point and the Pens need Maatta a lot more than they need Duchene right now.

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

Odd... you'd think when you have a blueline like Colorado does, you'd be enamored with damn near every good young D.

But whatever... if he doesn't work for you, that's fine, because Pen fans are more than happy to keep him.

Ironic you would quote me for this drivel, when earlier in the thread I said I'd be happy to have Maatta on our second pairing. Just not at the expense of Duchene.

But whatever...

 

[The Old Master]

We basically ran three 2nd pairings - defence against commitee. I don't know who was getting the hardest match-ups (probably Dumo-Hainsey as they got the worst zone starts) but I do know that was Maatta-Daley during the regular season.

And, yeah, 2nd pairing defender who took some top pairing duties adequately with the team in a pinch is a pretty fair description of where Maatta was during the play-offs. Which is, as pointed out, a far cry from the description given elsewhere.

and when you consider that maatta was playing in a system that doesn't fit maatta's skill set at all.....he did great.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Interesting...



Where does this prove anything? Not that I'm trying to stir anything up, but being on the ice for 1/3 of your team's EVS goals against and playing on the "top pairing" (according to other Pens fans) isn't exactly special or all that great. It basically means the Pens defensive pairings all played relatively equally in terms of performance (assuming it was an even distribution... not looking the others up).

Objectively, Maatta didn't do that great. Relative to his skill level, he did well. Which means as a 2nd pairing defender he bailed the Pens out in a pinch on the top pairing. His performance on a cup winning team was adequate enough to not ruin their cup chances. Once that sinks in, you can understand why people are not enamored with him.

That's not what I was arguing against, I was arguing against the idea that he nearly helped the Penguins lose a cup because he was a liability every night. He played well in the playoffs, not great but not terrible. The idea he was getting burned on a nightly basis is demonstrably false.

The Penguins ran with all 3 of their pairs at a relatively even TOI and Maatta was on the ice for less goals than the Cole-Schultz pair or the Dumoulin-Hainsey pair. If I had to guess, I would say most of the other Penguins defenseman had a higher GA/60 than Maatta, seeing how Maatta was below 1/3 of ES goals against (14 ES goals against of 45 total ES goals against).

Also why did the Maata break down only do ES goals? He could have been responsible for giving up non ES goals as well. Goals are goals so it seems disingenuous to not just do goals he was on ice for each series and break it down. This is why I hate advanced stats because you can create any stat you want to try and make it seem like a player is better or worse then they are by cherry picking situations and why I'm more of a watch them play and use the stats you would see in a 1993 box score. Advanced stats don't work well in team sports like the NBA and NHL. It's perfect for baseball because it is an extremely individual performance sport but there are to many outside fasters that need to be put into context if you use it in hockey. Watching Maata play he has talent but he has gotten slower and his injuries have clearly halted his progression. He is still young but will he get better or has all the time off made it so this is his prime?

As an outside fan I'd say there isn't much of a deal you can make it Maata is the main piece. I agree with the Avs fans with their evaluation of him. Now I'm sure if it's like Sprong, Maata, and 1st thats a fair offer. A decent prospect a 1st and a #4 D for 2 years of Duchene is more then reasonable but that offer also easily is beat by every other team in the running.

Because it's straight up stupid to blame defenseman for goals against when they're down a man. There's a reason +/- doesn't give a minus for players who get scored on while killing a penalty. The players are at a huge disadvantage for those 2 minutes, so to judge their defensive play based on that is pure lunacy.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Where does this prove anything? Not that I'm trying to stir anything up, but being on the ice for 1/3 of your team's EVS goals against and playing on the "top pairing" (according to other Pens fans) isn't exactly special or all that great. It basically means the Pens defensive pairings all played relatively equally in terms of performance (assuming it was an even distribution... not looking the others up).

Objectively, Maatta didn't do that great. Relative to his skill level, he did well. Which means as a 2nd pairing defender he bailed the Pens out in a pinch on the top pairing. His performance on a cup winning team was adequate enough to not ruin their cup chances. Once that sinks in, you can understand why people are not enamored with him.

Maatta had the lowest ESGA/60 of any Pens defenseman last playoff run. So while he sometimes does it ugly (poor footspeed, getting turnstiled for a highlight), fewer goals got scored when he was on the ice than anyone else on the blueline.

Objectively, if the main job of a defensive defenseman is to prevent goals, Maatta did exactly what he was supposed to do.

 

[rintinw]

Also why did the Maata break down only do ES goals? He could have been responsible for giving up non ES goals as well. Goals are goals so it seems disingenuous to not just do goals he was on ice for each series and break it down. This is why I hate advanced stats because you can create any stat you want to try and make it seem like a player is better or worse then they are by cherry picking situations and why I'm more of a watch them play and use the stats you would see in a 1993 box score. Advanced stats don't work well in team sports like the NBA and NHL. It's perfect for baseball because it is an extremely individual performance sport but there are to many outside fasters that need to be put into context if you use it in hockey. Watching Maata play he has talent but he has gotten slower and his injuries have clearly halted his progression. He is still young but will he get better or has all the time off made it so this is his prime?

Generally there is different level of difficulty to score (or prevent scoring) at different situations. It's easier to score on PP (elite players having rates of 5.0-8.0 PT60) than at ES (with rates of 2.2-2.8 PT60) and it's easier to score at ES than on PK (with rates rarely over 1.0 PT60). Given that players are used differently (some get more PP time, some get more PK time, etc.) those differences are big enough to give you very skewed picture if you compare them on aggregate. That means (among other things) that the perception of how good players are can change depending on how much PP time they get compared to their ES or PK time.

Also player (dis)advantage and ES are quite distinct situations and with the exception of player returning to ice all transitions between those situations are clearly separated by break in play.

So to your question, player performance is broken down into those categories so you have same basis for comparison. ES performance is mostly used because you have most data there and therefore it's less affected by chance.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

Maatta had the lowest ESGA/60 of any Pens defenseman last playoff run. So while he sometimes does it ugly (poor footspeed, getting turnstiled for a highlight), fewer goals got scored when he was on the ice than anyone else on the blueline.

Objectively, if the main job of a defensive defenseman is to prevent goals, Maatta did exactly what he was supposed to do.

Add that he had Hainsey anchored in most of those ES minutes is a feat in itself

I don't think Maata is all world nor is he a major liability. He's a decent 2nd pairing guy who is in a system that doesn't mesh well with his abilities. That being said, I am not interested in trading ANY of our top 6 D guys as we're another Letang injury away from being in some major trouble.

Any proposal with a Dman going out, better have some Dman coming back in my mind

 

[Shady Machine]

Pittsburgh literally has nothing realistic to offer. Also not including Sprong is a joke. Bad offer anyway, any team can beat this. Doubt Maata becomes more than a 4D. He is not good anymore

Saying a team can beat this is different than saying a team WILL beat this and if they did, I suspect Duchene would be gone by now.

 

[IWantSakicAsMyGM]

Saying a team can beat this is different than saying a team WILL beat this and if they did, I suspect Duchene would be gone by now.

I guess you want to ignore the fact that Sakic has publicly stated that he's not looking to make a trade just to make a trade, and that the trade has to make the team better in the long run. Just because a team offers something better than Maatta+ doesn't mean that it would definitely get the job done