Drew Doughty wins 2016 Norris

[Kingspiracy]

That's actually not what we're resorting to at all, you're completely missing the point.

Ok, my bad.

Nope, just laying out the facts. Most of the DD fanboys here have watched him perform a lot, but how can they compare him to a guy that they rarely watch, and then pass all important assessments such as "4th forward" and "Norris finally going to the overall best defenceman" and...

You want to argue with facts, or put words in other people's mouth (bolded, you said it, I don't see anybody else saying that here)?

And the said voters were also the same voters that supposedly "robbed" Doughy last year - go necro on your search for the threads pertaining to Karlsson two respective Norris wins - most of the fans here are actually more civil about this DD winning it. And the same set of voters started a campaign back in November/December about Drew being "due", and DD himself contributed to that cause in an interview that rubbed a lot of neutral fans the wrong way where he sort complains about not having the same recognition because he plays in the West (too lazy to find the interview, I bet somebody else here can help with that).

That works both ways, Most sens fans aren't going tuning in to watch the Kings and Doughty play reg season games. I think a lot of these 4th forward comments are drive bys, they wont only be kings fans tweaking tails.

I was fortunate enough to miss all the "he's due" commentry, which sucks if it plays into things.

 

[redcard]

I think you're out to lunch if you think the average poster here is going out of their way to watch out of conference games on a regular basis, particularly of one specific team unless they are specifically a fan of that team. I don't think too many Ottawa fans actively seek out kings games either, but I don't think it's outlandish to suggest they get exposed more to kings games because there is more coverage of the Kings here than Ottawa in the West south of the border.

If I'm at a bar, Kings games are as likely as any to be on. Can you say the same about Sens in California (might be a bad example, as you'd be in the bar at 5:00PM)?

Please, we have sports bars here too. If I'm at a bar Cubs games are almost certainly going to be on. That doesn't magically give me credibility when I claim that Kershaw's a better pitcher than Arrieta.

We get it, Canada gets so much hockey coverage. You can't walk down the street without running into a former player. Pierre McGuire knows who your 4th grade teacher was. But again, you're not talking to posters who accidentally watched the Phoenix/Columbus game because it was on when they went out for drinks Thursday night. You're talking to posters that actually have to put in effort to get the level of exposure that you consider to be your advantage. Do you really think the posters here that had to rely on illegal choppy streams 10 years ago to watch their own team make a cross country road trip haven't figured out how to dramatically increase their exposure to the sport by now? That sens fan that moved here briefly and was complaining about the Kentucky Derby coverage interfering with his ability to watch the SCF? All he would have had to do is post on the kings board and someone would have told him where to find it.

Yes, I'm willing to bet that if any of your friends aren't hockey fans they could still probably smash any of my non-hockey fan friends in a little game of trivia on the simple basis that they've absorbed some amount of knowledge from their environment. But I don't have a clue how many times any of you have watched Drew Doughty play, and the inverse is equally true.

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

Move out of North of GTA.

I personally have gamecentre (all out of town game coverage), although if you have cable you would have watched 17+ televised regular season Kings game on Sportsnet alone. I didn't even bother to check how many games TSN, NHL Network, or any other networks carried, you can find that out yourself. How many Sens game were broadcast in California, and why would these fans subject themselves to watching "the 4th forward" Karlsson on choppy streams as some ridiculously claim?

Did you just pick that number out of thin air? Got a source, could me that I missed games due to circumstances etc

 

[Micklebot]

Please, we have sports bars here too. If I'm at a bar Cubs games are almost certainly going to be on. That doesn't magically give me credibility when I claim that Kershaw's a better pitcher than Arrieta.

We get it, Canada gets so much hockey coverage. You can't walk down the street without running into a former player. Pierre McGuire knows who your 4th grade teacher was. But again, you're not talking to posters who accidentally watched the Phoenix/Columbus game because it was on when they went out for drinks Thursday night. You're talking to posters that actually have to put in effort to get the level of exposure that you consider to be your advantage. Do you really think the posters here that had to rely on illegal choppy streams 10 years ago to watch their own team make a cross country road trip haven't figured out how to dramatically increase their exposure to the sport by now? That sens fan that moved here briefly and was complaining about the Kentucky Derby coverage interfering with his ability to watch the SCF? All he would have had to do is post on the kings board and someone would have told him where to find it.

Yes, I'm willing to bet that if any of your friends aren't hockey fans they could still probably smash any of my non-hockey fan friends in a little game of trivia on the simple basis that they've absorbed some amount of knowledge from their environment. But I don't have a clue how many times any of you have watched Drew Doughty play, and the inverse is equally true.

Lets just leave it at you and I have very different opinions on the average poster on HF boards. I agree there are some well informed guys out there that go out of their way to watch a substantial amount of the guys they want to discuss but imo that is so far from the norm it isn't funny.

As for your comment about sports bars, that's nice and all, but almost any bar here will have tvs with a hockey game on. I go to Boston Pizza and they have hockey games on. Your right that it doesn't mean I follow it closely enough to be well informed, but it gives me ample opportunity to watch more of those players should I wish.

 

[tacogeoff]

Lets just leave it at you and I have very different opinions on the average poster on HF boards. I agree there are some well informed guys out there that go out of their way to watch a substantial amount of the guys they want to discuss but imo that is so far from the norm it isn't funny.

As for your comment about sports bars, that's nice and all, but almost any bar here will have tvs with a hockey game on. I go to Boston Pizza and they have hockey games on. Your right that it doesn't mean I follow it closely enough to be well informed, but it gives me ample opportunity to watch more of those players should I wish.

yawn. time to give up Mick. A vast majority can agree it was a award that was given by the media because he was "due" and current/past team achievements. it is what it is. E.K. had a stunning season and hopefully he expands on it even more.

Time to concentrate on the draft as arguing on here isn't going to get E.K. this years Norris.

 

[redcard]

Lets just leave it at you and I have very different opinions on the average poster on HF boards. I agree there are some well informed guys out there that go out of their way to watch a substantial amount of the guys they want to discuss but imo that is so far from the norm it isn't funny.

But we're not even talking about the average poster here. What is this, the 30th thread about Doughty VS Karlsson in the last 2 years? Maybe we're up to 3 digit numbers over the course of their careers? There is a legitimate reason for the posters in these threads to actively seek opportunities to watch the other player.

 

[Brownies]

I'm a big fan of Karlsson, but I thought he started the year too slow to win it.I think they picked the good guy this year, just like the year before.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

The answer is NO, having lived there they get very little coverage outside of their local team. As a sens fan living in the US I had to find a way to stream sens games. Heck, in the Stanley Cup finals they turned off the game in order to show the first 3 hours before the Kentucky Derby. Not THE kentucky derby, just the talking and stories beforehand. This was obviously during the sens cup run but shows why many have no knowledge about Karlsson outside of what they have read.

Am I the only person on this board with Center Ice or something?

There are...ways...of getting around that too that don't result in a crap stream.

I think it's a fair criticism--on EITHER side--that folks don't watch both guys enough. But personally, I watched about 40 Sens games this year due to an overabundance of free time and wanting to pick a different "eastern" team this year (wanted to see lots of Stone and EK). That's not nearly fair to extrapolate to his whole career (just like many Sens fans two--awful, mind you--viewings of Drew this year), but it's more than most voters or posters here watched of both guys. It gave me a new appreciation for Karlsson, especially the things he does offensively that DONT end up on the scoresheet: saavy little passes, being one step ahead of EVERYONE on the play, and so on (because, with Doughty, we often talk about he's great at offense but just not getting the numbers--that happens bigtime for EK as well, not every offensive play ends up in the back of the net so his numbers are testament to how awesome he is BECAUSE there is a lot more going on that's NOT recorded if that makes sense). That's why I'm so comfortable with my opinion on his play this year in particular especially vs. the 80+ games of Doughty.

My only point with that illustration is simply that it's unfair to paint everyone with one brush, that sometimes different opinions ARE based in evidence, and that people can disagree in what they see for a variety of reasons.

 

[Micklebot]

But we're not even talking about the average poster here. What is this, the 30th thread about Doughty VS Karlsson in the last 2 years? Maybe we're up to 3 digit numbers over the course of their careers? There is a legitimate reason for the posters in these threads to actively seek opportunities to watch the other player.

that's the thing though, I really don't think armani was referring to the guys that go out of their way to inform themselves, in fact, I think it's painfully obvious he wasn't when he suggested that they go watch via streams if they hadn't had the regular opportunity.

I think, and only armani knows for sure, that he was referencing the numerous fly by posters that are avid fans of their teams and casual observers of other teams. Those are the guys more likely influenced by what they read here. Both fan bases have their contingent that comment without watching much more than a handful of games and some highlights, and I suspect that group represents quite a large portion of the posts.

Maybe I'm wrong, but with some of the comments about both Doughty and Karlsson, I really don't think I am.

 

[Micklebot]

Am I the only person on this board with Center Ice or something?

There are...ways...of getting around that too that don't result in a crap stream.

I think it's a fair criticism--on EITHER side--that folks don't watch both guys enough. But personally, I watched about 40 Sens games this year due to an overabundance of free time and wanting to pick a different "eastern" team this year (wanted to see lots of Stone and EK). That's not nearly fair to extrapolate to his whole career (just like many Sens fans two--awful, mind you--viewings of Drew this year), but it's more than most voters or posters here watched of both guys. It gave me a new appreciation for Karlsson, especially the things he does offensively that DONT end up on the scoresheet: saavy little passes, being one step ahead of EVERYONE on the play, and so on (because, with Doughty, we often talk about he's great at offense but just not getting the numbers--that happens bigtime for EK as well, not every offensive play ends up in the back of the net so his numbers are testament to how awesome he is BECAUSE there is a lot more going on that's NOT recorded if that makes sense). That's why I'm so comfortable with my opinion on his play this year in particular especially vs. the 80+ games of Doughty.

My only point with that illustration is simply that it's unfair to paint everyone with one brush, that sometimes different opinions ARE based in evidence, and that people can disagree in what they see for a variety of reasons.

There are certainly some people like yourself that have gone out and watched players you want to comment on, and I find those are easy to spot. The most common tell of someone watched the guy is being able to show appreciation of the little things that don't show up. The subtle defensive reads to intercept a play, or the head fake to open up passing lanes.

I think armani's point applies to both players, those who come in and comment without watching more than a handful of games of either guy have really missed a special player and a special season.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Doughty had more 1st place votes last year on a nonplayoff team(who have a contending roster!) with a good but not great performance for a Norris candidate. Same year that Karlsson lead a historic second half run and had the greatest second half season of any defender in last 30 years. Think about that.

I'm baffled people surprised Doughty won by as much as he did this year. It was planned first 15 games into the season, if not earlier.

Everyone talking about defense, show me clear individual defensive distinction that separates Doughty from Karlsson.... and to make it more interesting, try to do so with proof that it overcomes the offensive difference between Karlsson and Doughty.

You can't. Stop with the "he's better overall bs" he isn't.

The gap between Karl and Doughty defensively doesn't touch the gap between the two defensively.

Once Karlsson plays on a contender, Doughty's days of being compared to Erik will be long over. Heck, Hedman will surpass Doughty soon if he already hasn't.

 

[gretskidoo]

Year of the joke/reputation awards.

 

[lordjedediah]

Doughty had more 1st place votes last year on a nonplayoff team(who have a contending roster!) with a good but not great performance for a Norris candidate. Same year that Karlsson lead a historic second half run and had the greatest second half season of any defender in last 30 years. Think about that.

I'm baffled people surprised Doughty won by as much as he did this year. It was planned first 15 games into the season, if not earlier.

Everyone talking about defense, show me clear individual defensive distinction that separates Doughty from Karlsson.... and to make it more interesting, try to do so with proof that it overcomes the offensive difference between Karlsson and Doughty.

You can't. Stop with the "he's better overall bs" he isn't.

The gap between Karl and Doughty defensively doesn't touch the gap between the two defensively.

Once Karlsson plays on a contender, Doughty's days of being compared to Erik will be long over. Heck, Hedman will surpass Doughty soon if he already hasn't.

https://streamable.com/u2n9

 

[BondraTime]

https://streamable.com/u2n9

1 highlight proves nothing (I do think DD is better defensively, posting a single highlight does nothing)

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Doughty had more 1st place votes last year on a nonplayoff team(who have a contending roster!) with a good but not great performance for a Norris candidate. Same year that Karlsson lead a historic second half run and had the greatest second half season of any defender in last 30 years. Think about that.

I'm baffled people surprised Doughty won by as much as he did this year. It was planned first 15 games into the season, if not earlier.

Everyone talking about defense, show me clear individual defensive distinction that separates Doughty from Karlsson.... and to make it more interesting, try to do so with proof that it overcomes the offensive difference between Karlsson and Doughty.

You can't. Stop with the "he's better overall bs" he isn't.

The gap between Karl and Doughty defensively doesn't touch the gap between the two defensively.

Once Karlsson plays on a contender, Doughty's days of being compared to Erik will be long over. Heck, Hedman will surpass Doughty soon if he already hasn't.

I'm not going to say that he is one way or another for sake of this post, but even if Doughty IS better overall--even significantly--you can get away with saying "you can't [prove it]" because what kind of evidence would be necessary? A million highlights? Nki Suggested a shift-by-shift deal, good luck finding someone to put that together. Well, on the Drew side anyway, EK apparently already has an army of video editors.

I'm of the mind that EK CAN be elite defensively, he's just completely inconsistent on that end. even EK himself pointed out what makes Drew exceptional is (this year, imo) his consistency. He had a whole mess of defensive highlight plays for sure, but the biggest thing was he was just a total eraser out there defensively--that showed up somewhat in the metrics, but other than those two things (moments of greatness when McNabb/Scuderi went braindead, exceptional defensive stats), his performance LOOKED very vanilla because he was simply being a rock solid wall on the back end while contributing top 10 offense.

Love the bitter last paragraph though, come on man. Don't understand why it's so impossible for some people here to just be happy for a guy instead of smugly patronizing.

 

[harrisb]

1 highlight proves nothing (I do think DD is better defensively, posting a single highlight does nothing)

I think the point is that doughty has no ability to make that play. There are many other similar Karlsson feats that also doughty could never do. Doughty can't play the offensive game that karlsson does simply due to foot speed, karlsson does rush the puck but is often the first man back. No other d in the NHL does this

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

I think the point is that doughty has no ability to make that play. There are many other similar Karlsson feats that also doughty could never do. Doughty can't play the offensive game that karlsson does simply due to foot speed, karlsson does rush the puck but is often the first man back. No other d in the NHL does this

Yeah silly lack of offense Drew, only has a series of end-to-end highlight reel goals in the WCF and Cup Finals

Different tools doesn't mean lesser player

 

[ulvvf]

This is like if NHL would have been a scandinavian league and Backlund won hart over Kane and people talk about defense to justify it, and you wouldnt suspect that nationality had anything to do with it? This is on the same level, it put the nail in the coffin, they are baised. It has probably not been a d-men i modern time deserving the price more than Karlsson has this season.

 

[Kingspiracy]

This is like if NHL would have been a scandinavian league and Backlund won hart over Kane and people talk about defense to justify it, and you wouldnt suspect that nationality had anything to do with it? This is on the same level, it put the nail in the coffin, they are baised. It has probably not been a d-men i modern time deserving the price more than Karlsson has this season.

What price? Karlsson lost this year, theres no shame in that considering the competition. If he can score more points than he leaks while on the ice he'll win it again next year.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Those were also undeserved trophies.

OR Langway was just that good defensively.
One of the best I ever saw, better at his peak than even Lidstrom ever was. He had every tool defensively Lidstrom had and more on top of that.
Langway could use physical play to great effect when finesse wasn't enough or the front of the net needed clearing and he was a far better shot blocker.

The level of defense Langway was able to achieve was extremely remarkable considering the fire wagon mentality of the League he did it in.

Did it so well in fact that he was even recognized for it and named one of the best Dmen in the '84 Canada Cup.

 

[Phil68]

Brett Burns deserved it more then Doughty. I'm sorry but he put up better numbers offensively and was just as good on defense plus the body checks he laid out on people..

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Brett Burns deserved it more then Doughty. I'm sorry but he put up better numbers offensively and was just as good on defense plus the body checks he laid out on people..

He wasn't as good defensively, lol. Not even close.

 

[sr edler]

I liked how he appeared a little emotional in his acceptance speech.



He also reminds me so much of Ratigan from The Great Mouse Detective, but that's irrelevant I guess.

 

[BHD]

Year of the joke/reputation awards.

Yup, pretty easy to see when you look at the nominees this year.

 

[kalessin]

Karlsson will never play for a contender unless he demands a trade. He might put his team a little closer if he bothered to track back on d once in a while though.

A point a game dman who was a minus player nearly won the Norris? That's embarrassing for the league.