Drew Doughty wins 2016 Norris

[Micklebot]

Kopitar's Rookie year was 2006/07
Doughty's Rookie year was 2008/09
Darryl Sutter wasn't hired until late 2011

So in the two years before Doughty and Sutter (with Kopitar), Kings were 27th and 28th in GA respectively.

And in the years with Doughty (Kopitar was already there), but before Sutter the Kings went to 14th GA and 10th GA respectively. So logically you can't come to your conclusion based on these facts and theMajor's position remains sound. The Kings only started to shine defensively after Doughty joined their ranks.

Disclaimer - Obviously these stats are team oriented and one player isn't on the ice at all time for all situations (even though Doughty is on the ice a lot in most situations). But these stats prove interesting nonetheless.

Sorry, should have been clear, I was using 5v5 numbers.

Murray was also a very defensive minded coach, particularly relative to Crawford.

2007-08 (Crawford): 2.84 GA/60 30th NHL, 58.3 CA/60 29th NHL
2008-09 (Murray): 2.25 GA/60 15th NHL, 51.6 CA/60 11th NHL
2009-10 (Murray); 2.11 GA/60 4th NHL, 50.1 CA/60 5th NHL (Doughty's sophomore year when he was still playing an offense first game)
2010-11 (Murray); 2.10 GA/60 8th NHL, 51.8 CA/60 4th (tied) NHL

* Note: Labarbara was among the worst #1 goalie in the league in 2007-08, and he was your upgrade on the three headed monster of Burke, Cloutier and Garon from the year before.

Now obviously adding a top pair Dman will improve your team so there's no doubt that Doughty was part of the turnaround, but the initial insinuation (not theMajor but what I was initially responding to) was that Doughty changing his game made the Kings a defensive powerhouse, which I think is false. Murray and then Sutter (not to mention Stevens) changed the way they play which was the primary reason LA is a defensive powerhouse. Of course, you need some good players to be a great defensive team, but Doughty alone, no matter which version you're talking about, doesn't make a team a defensive powerhouse.

Basically, correlation does not equal causation. LA also added Voynov that draft, and the kings didn't start winning cups till he got into the lineup, but you don't see me saying Voynov turned the kings into a multi-cup winning near dynasty.

 

[armani]

Stats are great, watching these great defencemen play is even better.

Watch 'em play guys, make your conclusions after. In Canada we get a decent coverage (I have access to all out of town games personally) of LA Kings (mainly HNIC + playoffs) and proudly support team Canada where DD anchors the blueline.

Do the Western Conference stateside fans get to watch many Sens games? I don't know the answer, but there are various ways of catching hockey streams if you care to watch one of the best players in the league in Karlsson - you won't be disappointed.

 

[6 Karlsson 5]

Obviously shots have different percentages depending on where they're taken from, this is common sense.

In terms of Karlsson vs Doughty here are the facts:

Doughty plays significantly more PK minutes than Karlsson
Doughty plays on the top PK unit
Top PK units tend to play the opponent's 1st PP unit
The Kings are average on the PK (15th)

Karlsson plays a pretty small amount of PK minutes, not just compared to Doughty but the NHL
Karlsson does not play on the top PK unit
Non top PK units tend to play the opponent's 2nd PP unit
The Senators are terrible on the PK (29th)

As I've said earlier in this thread I'm not suggesting that Karlsson is terrible defensively (I think he's average), but Doughty is far superior defensively, including the PK.

Karsson's a star player, and as a Sens and/or Karlsson fan (based on your avatar), maybe you're being a bit of a homer here if you're going to argue that Karlsson's as good as Doughty on the PK?

Karlsson's a damn good player...but he's not the 2nd coming of Bobby Orr (not suggesting you ever implied this), but some people just don't get that.

The the distribution of a players ice time is out of his control , players are not coaches
So therefore we should evaluate what a player does in the ice time he is given
I showed you that karlsson has better shot suppression stats both raw and relative
You says all shots are not created equal , that's all well and good but you have to prove in this instance that Karlsson is giving up higher quality chances , you are like the guy who yells "context" but wants the person he is arguing with to provide it

You say karlsson plays second unit
I showed you the shot generation of each players opposition is literally almost equal so you have to actually prove again that doughty faced harder comp don't care what metric you use

Then finally if you read a bit up I showed that karlsson also has better raw and relative goal suppresion stats , are all goals created equally?

I'm not a homer , read my post history if you really think I'm biased towards karlsson , I have both these guys in my top 10
im just tired of people trying to use low PK time against karlsson when it's clear by every single stat he is good at it

 

[ulvvf]

No... they don't. Not at all. Why are you making up stats?

Karlsson was on the ice for 14 PP goals against this year in 108 minutes of PK time. Karlsson was on the ice for one goal against on the PK for every 7.71 minutes.

Drew Doughty 30 PP goals against. Drew Doughty played 241 minutes on the PK this year. Doughty was on the ice for one goal against on the PK for every 8.03 minutes.

Both are pretty damn bad - but Karlson was actually worse. In fact, giving up one PK goal for every 7.71 minutes of PK time is extremely below average. Add that with the fact that EK was on the ice for over 100 ES goals this year - which is well higher than anyone else in the NHL, and you have numbers that back up a very poor defensive year for EK.

How bad? Really bad. Here are some numbers.

EK has been on the ice for 101 ES goals in 1885 ES minutes played this season. This means on average he is on the ice for an ES goal against every 18.66 minutes. That is 3.2 ES goals per game against per 60 minutes. No team in the entire NHL even averaged 3.2 goals per game this year - and that includes power plays! EK on avg gives up 3.2 ES goals per 60 minutes when on ice while the top NHL team in teh league avg'd 3.13 goals per game which INCLUDED ALL THEIR POWER PLAY GOALS!

To put some other numbers into perspective... Patrick Kane this year played 1413 ES minutes and had 69 ES points. That is one ES point every 20.47 minutes. That is honestly an amazing number. What a year by Kane.

This means... the best scorer BY FAR in the NHL this year scored ES at an average of once every 20.47 minutes while EK gives up a ES goals on average every 18.66 minutes. EK was so bad defensively this year - the opponents on the ice against him scored BETTER THAN PATRICK KANE in terms of scoring ES efficiency.

The flavor of the week in your cherry picking stats when it comes to your guys attempt to bash on Karlsson. It always changes depending on what stats you guys can find to use against him. When he improves that stats you ignore it and move to some other stats. Last year many focus on that he didnt block shoots and that was a sign of good or bad defense, well he has improve that, so now you move to some other stats.

Do you know other d-men like Keith come high up in that stat as well, so if that stat shall have any weight, you have to say that Keith is also bad defensivly. Many players that have a reputation of being good defensivly and play for better teams are high on that list. But you focus only on Karlsson. Because he is not NA, and therefore you have to bash on him because only canadians can be generational in the media hype world. It do not matter what Karlsson do, defense is all about reputation and nationlity. I have see this voters saying things like only europeans are making misstakes, and no one in studio is even trying to correct them. They are all mini Don Cherry.

It is funny that most of the stats you are using against him, is team stats, and in this case Doughty is bad in as well despite him playing for a better defense team? (so if both sucks, why use defense as argument for either of them?) Karlsson is high in blocked shoots despite limited ice time in PK compare to some others, that is a sign that he do his part in PK. Despite he is high in blocked shoots I can see many saying he do not block shoots?`Defense in media world is so much about reputation and very little about what they are actually doing.

 

[harrisb]

Stats are great, watching these great defencemen play is even better.

Watch 'em play guys, make your conclusions after. In Canada we get a decent coverage (I have access to all out of town games personally) of LA Kings (mainly HNIC + playoffs) and proudly support team Canada where DD anchors the blueline.

Do the Western Conference stateside fans get to watch many Sens games? I don't know the answer, but there are various ways of catching hockey streams if you care to watch one of the best players in the league in Karlsson - you won't be disappointed.

The answer is NO, having lived there they get very little coverage outside of their local team. As a sens fan living in the US I had to find a way to stream sens games. Heck, in the Stanley Cup finals they turned off the game in order to show the first 3 hours before the Kentucky Derby. Not THE kentucky derby, just the talking and stories beforehand. This was obviously during the sens cup run but shows why many have no knowledge about Karlsson outside of what they have read.

 

[Jayevs]

Sense when is playing great defense an intangible?

 

[lordjedediah]

The answer is NO, having lived there they get very little coverage outside of their local team. As a sens fan living in the US I had to find a way to stream sens games. Heck, in the Stanley Cup finals they turned off the game in order to show the first 3 hours before the Kentucky Derby. Not THE kentucky derby, just the talking and stories beforehand. This was obviously during the sens cup run but shows why many have no knowledge about Karlsson outside of what they have read.

The answer is YES. It's incredibly easy to stream eastern conference games.

 

[nocturn]

The answer is NO, having lived there they get very little coverage outside of their local team. As a sens fan living in the US I had to find a way to stream sens games. Heck, in the Stanley Cup finals they turned off the game in order to show the first 3 hours before the Kentucky Derby. Not THE kentucky derby, just the talking and stories beforehand. This was obviously during the sens cup run but shows why many have no knowledge about Karlsson outside of what they have read.

Terrible argument.

 

[Micklebot]

The answer is YES. It's incredibly easy to stream eastern conference games.

Do you think the average western conference team fan from south of the border actively seeks out choppy streams of Sens games?

I don't think so myself. There will be a few that do of course, but I have a hard time envisioning the norm being people to seek out an Eastern conference game that starts while many are still at work.

Can it be done, sure. Is it playing at the bar while you have drinks, does the local news provide detailed coverage, is it available on cable satellite without center ice?

Now, a more interesting question is whether it's significantly less covered than LA games in eastern Canada.

 

[Moops]

Really expected. A high intangibles per game player.

The Toews of Defenseman.

Really makes u think.

 

[armani]

Do you think the average western conference team fan from south of the border actively seeks out choppy streams of Sens games?

I don't think so myself. There will be a few that do of course, but I have a hard time envisioning the norm being people to seek out an Eastern conference game that starts while many are still at work.

Can it be done, sure. Is it playing at the bar while you have drinks, does the local news provide detailed coverage, is it available on cable satellite without center ice?

Now, a more interesting question is whether it's significantly less covered than LA games in eastern Canada.

I think the answer is obvious, judging by the "Karlsson the 4th forward" type comments. A lot of these fans are definitely adamant about Doughty's superiority - they get to watch him regularly as an excellent defenceman and likely has seen a handful of Karlsson games (and a lot of Karlsson fail vids).

 

[redcard]

Do you think the average western conference team fan from south of the border actively seeks out choppy streams of Sens games?

I don't think so myself. There will be a few that do of course, but I have a hard time envisioning the norm being people to seek out an Eastern conference game that starts while many are still at work.

Can it be done, sure. Is it playing at the bar while you have drinks, does the local news provide detailed coverage, is it available on cable satellite without center ice?

Now, a more interesting question is whether it's significantly less covered than LA games in eastern Canada.

What kind of people do you think post on this board? Nobody here's a casual fan learning about hockey from local news coverage.

Yes, not that long ago we had to find crappy streams of away broadcasts of our own team because the local station wouldn't carry all 82. Yes, hockey's obviously bigger in Canada than it is in LA. Congratulations.

But you're not having internet arguments with some random guy off Figueroa. Everyone here registered because they were actively looking for additional coverage of the game and discussion that goes beyond what's offered at the local level. The whole "I watch your team more than you watch mine" mentality is baseless, uninformed, and represents an arrogance and closed mindedness that really drags down the quality of discussion. If your mindset is that you know more than anyone else, why even bother?

 

[armani]

What kind of people do you think post on this board? Nobody here's a casual fan learning about hockey from local news coverage.

Yes, not that long ago we had to find crappy streams of away broadcasts of our own team because the local station wouldn't carry all 82. Yes, hockey's obviously bigger in Canada than it is in LA. Congratulations.

But you're not having internet arguments with some random guy off Figueroa. Everyone here registered because they were actively looking for additional coverage of the game and discussion that goes beyond what's offered at the local level. The whole "I watch your team more than you watch mine" mentality is baseless, uninformed, and represents an arrogance and closed mindedness that really drags down the quality of discussion. If your mindset is that you know more than anyone else, why even bother?

It's a fact that north of the border we get more coverage, especially of elite teams like the Kings and the Hawks. How is that baseless mentality?

 

[GoldenBearHockey]

It's a fact that north of the border we get more coverage, especially of elite teams like the Kings and the Hawks. How is that baseless mentality?

LOL really? Where do you live? I am north of the GTA, and I can count with all ten fingers the amount of Kings games that were televised in this area, not counting playoff games,

 

[armani]

LOL really? Where do you live? I am north of the GTA, and I can count with all ten fingers the amount of Kings games that were televised in this area, not counting playoff games,

Move out of North of GTA.

I personally have gamecentre (all out of town game coverage), although if you have cable you would have watched 17+ televised regular season Kings game on Sportsnet alone. I didn't even bother to check how many games TSN, NHL Network, or any other networks carried, you can find that out yourself. How many Sens game were broadcast in California, and why would these fans subject themselves to watching "the 4th forward" Karlsson on choppy streams as some ridiculously claim?

 

[lordjedediah]

Move out of North of GTA.

I personally have gamecentre (all out of town game coverage), although if you have cable you would have watched 12+ televised regular season Kings game on Sportsnet alone. I didn't even bother to check how many games TSN, NHL Network, or any other networks carried, you can find that out yourself. How many Sens game were broadcast in California, and why would these fans subject themselves to watching "the 4th forward" Karlsson on choppy streams as some ridiculously claim?

You have no idea what you're talking about. The streams are in 1080p and widely available. It literally takes less than 60 seconds to find a good quality stream of any live sporting event in North America.

 

[armani]

You have no idea what you're talking about. The streams are in 1080p and widely available. It literally takes less than 60 seconds to find a good quality stream of any live sporting event in North America.

And you watch Sens games on those streams, amirite?

 

[theMajor]

The more logical conclusion would be that switching from an offensive minded coach in Crawford to Murray, a defensive minded coach, coupled with the switch from terrible goaltending in Labarbara to Quick and the progression of their now Selke winning Center Kopitar were the primary reasons for LA's quick ascension from terrible GA to great. But of course, as an LA fan, you probably already knew that, hoping that nobody else noticed.

I know the turnaround was due to a number of factors, I was just poking fun at how you cherry picked your stats and came to an unsound conclusion as a result. all BS aside, Doughty is a big reason the Kings are so capable defensively. Quick, Kopitar and the system all help, but Doughty is the prime mover. to say that the Kings were already a 'premier defensive team' before they drafted Doughty is not only a false statement but it is a deceitful attempt to downplay how important Doughty is to the Kings defense system

 

[Micklebot]

What kind of people do you think post on this board? Nobody here's a casual fan learning about hockey from local news coverage.

Yes, not that long ago we had to find crappy streams of away broadcasts of our own team because the local station wouldn't carry all 82. Yes, hockey's obviously bigger in Canada than it is in LA. Congratulations.

But you're not having internet arguments with some random guy off Figueroa. Everyone here registered because they were actively looking for additional coverage of the game and discussion that goes beyond what's offered at the local level. The whole "I watch your team more than you watch mine" mentality is baseless, uninformed, and represents an arrogance and closed mindedness that really drags down the quality of discussion. If your mindset is that you know more than anyone else, why even bother?

I think you're out to lunch if you think the average poster here is going out of their way to watch out of conference games on a regular basis, particularly of one specific team unless they are specifically a fan of that team. I don't think too many Ottawa fans actively seek out kings games either, but I don't think it's outlandish to suggest they get exposed more to kings games because there is more coverage of the Kings here than Ottawa in the West south of the border.

If I'm at a bar, Kings games are as likely as any to be on. Can you say the same about Sens in California (might be a bad example, as you'd be in the bar at 5:00PM)?

 

[Micklebot]

I know the turnaround was due to a number of factors, I was just poking fun at how you cherry picked your stats and came to an unsound conclusion as a result. all BS aside, Doughty is a big reason the Kings are so capable defensively. Quick, Kopitar and the system all help, but Doughty is the prime mover. to say that the Kings were already a 'premier defensive team' before they drafted Doughty is not only a false statement but it is a deceitful attempt to downplay how important Doughty is to the Kings defense system

I for the most part agree, but I was actually suggesting not that they were a premier defensive team prior to Doughty's arrival (they weren't), but that they were a premier defensive team prior to Doughty's transition from a more offensive player to a defensive stud.

It's a small difference, but quite an important one as, at least imo, it's the difference between me being honest and dishonest in my assessment. LA was quite capable of being a top 5 defensive team in the league without Doughty's more well rounded game (ie when he put up 59 pts).

Doughty's awesome, and I've long been one to defend that his offense is underrated. I do feel that his defense is getting a bit overrated though. That's my opinion based on my viewings, so feel free to disagree.

 

[CCM19]

I think you're out to lunch if you think the average poster here is going out of their way to watch out of conference games on a regular basis, particularly of one specific team unless they are specifically a fan of that team. I don't think too many Ottawa fans actively seek out kings games either, but I don't think it's outlandish to suggest they get exposed more to kings games because there is more coverage of the Kings here than Ottawa in the West south of the border.

If I'm at a bar, Kings games are as likely as any to be on. Can you say the same about Sens in California (might be a bad example, as you'd be in the bar at 5:00PM)?

Ya but Karlsson is a 4th forward so it doesn't matter.

 

[Micklebot]

You have no idea what you're talking about. The streams are in 1080p and widely available. It literally takes less than 60 seconds to find a good quality stream of any live sporting event in North America.

Personally, as an avid streamer, I find the quality of the streams (not just the resolution) to be highly dependant on the team I'm getting the feed for. For example, Toronto and Mtl streams are always quite good. Not so with smaller market teams (like, go figure, the Sens).

 

[Kingspiracy]

So now we're resorting to, you're guys opinion doesn't mean **** because you only get to see Karlsson on crappy streams?

Is that why Doughty won the Norris, the voters watched him on Hi res and Karlsson through fuzz?

 

[CCM19]

So now we're resorting to, you're guys opinion doesn't mean **** because you only get to see Karlsson on crappy streams?

Is that why Doughty won the Norris, the voters watched him on Hi res and Karlsson through fuzz?

That's actually not what we're resorting to at all, you're completely missing the point.

 

[armani]

So now we're resorting to, you're guys opinion doesn't mean **** because you only get to see Karlsson on crappy streams?

Is that why Doughty won the Norris, the voters watched him on Hi res and Karlsson through fuzz?

Nope, just laying out the facts. Most of the DD fanboys here have watched him perform a lot, but how can they compare him to a guy that they rarely watch, and then pass all important assessments such as "4th forward" and "Norris finally going to the overall best defenceman" and...

You want to argue with facts, or put words in other people's mouth (bolded, you said it, I don't see anybody else saying that here)?

And the said voters were also the same voters that supposedly "robbed" Doughy last year - go necro on your search for the threads pertaining to Karlsson two respective Norris wins - most of the fans here are actually more civil about this DD winning it. And the same set of voters started a campaign back in November/December about Drew being "due", and DD himself contributed to that cause in an interview that rubbed a lot of neutral fans the wrong way where he sort complains about not having the same recognition because he plays in the West (too lazy to find the interview, I bet somebody else here can help with that).

Go necro, the outcome of this year's Norris was assumed for a while, long before the season for which he won even got to the midway point. There was an active campaign here in Canadian media (Don Cherry, Derren Dreger, Jim Hughson, et. al no name a few off the top of my head) to get Drew his due.