Drake Batherson vs Jesper Bratt

[RedWingzz]

Easy vote here for Batherson. The guy looks like he will be a dangerous NHL player for years to come. This doesn't even need to be said, but unreal pick by Ottawa.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

How about the non-made up stats lol? Ya know, the ones that count. What do they tell you?

Please list what stats were "made up"? I will eagerly await your response.

Bratt even had a better ppg this year while being a much better play driver (54.8 CF% vs 47.6 CF%)

 

[BondraTime]

People are acting like because this is Batherson's first full year in the NHL that he has some kind of mythical ceiling of projection when he's already had nearly 150 games of pro experience. I'd say he's a lot closer to what he is than some of you would care to admit. You're using Bratt's ascension to the NHL much earlier against him when, as you noted, he made the jump from the Allsvenskan (tier-2 Sweden), all the way to the NHL at 19 as a 6th round pick and has been learning on the job on an unstable/poor team. Bratt's skills are much more projectable at this level and despite the continued efforts of Sens fans to use Bratt's production against him, he's a much better player than he was 180 NHL games ago. As the team solidifies around him, his production will rise with it, as it likely would have this year with a full training camp and better puck luck.

I mean, the exact same can be said for Batherson...

 

[trentmccleary]

Please list what stats were "made up"? I will eagerly await your response.

Bratt even had a better ppg this year while being a much better play driver (54.8 CF% vs 47.6 CF%)

Ottawa's top-3 regulars in CF% were:
Mike Reilly - traded for a 3rd rounder
Colin White and Evgenii Dadonov - both of whom the fanbase would like to trade as cap dumps.

"Advanced" stats are largely a fraud.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Imagine thinking shot attempts for and against is some sort of "advanced stat"

 

[trentmccleary]

Imagine thinking shot attempts for and against is some sort of "advanced stat"

Imagine thinking that when players/coaches know they're being measured on such things and it could affect their salaries... that they might altar their game play to take more perimeter shots to manipulate the stat.

#hawthorneeffect

 

[Better Call Sal]

While I understand the Batherson support, I've yet to see anyone actually provide a substantial argument against Bratt. All it's been to this point is downplaying the value of advanced statistics, which further leads me to believe no one has really watched Bratt play enough to form an opinion on him.

Even when you look at just points per game, Bratt has had a higher PPG in 2 of the last 3 years than Batherson hit in his first full season last year.

They're two fairly different players stylistically, so I guess it all depends on what you value in a player from that perspective.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

While I understand the Batherson support, I've yet to see anyone actually provide a substantial argument against Bratt. All it's been to this point is downplaying the value of advanced statistics, which further leads me to believe no one has really watched Bratt play enough to form an opinion on him.

Even when you look at just points per game, Bratt has had a higher PPG in 2 of the last 3 years than Batherson hit in his first full season last year.

They're two fairly different players stylistically, so I guess it all depends on what you value in a player from that perspective.

Drake Batherson's first full season of junior was at the age of 18-19 years old. Compare that to Stutzle who in the same breath just played a full season in the NHL. He's a huge late bloomer. A year later he led the entire QMJHL in points in the playoffs--while being team Canada's best goal scorer at WJCs.

Year after that he was over PPG and unquestionable best player on his team in his first AHL season at 21(crazy if you think about it) and then arguably best player in AHL the year after that.

The year after THAT he on pace for 25 goals and 50 points in his first full season in NHL. Jesper Bratt, although very underrated and excellent player in his own right, does not have the steep progressive pedigree and development of Batherson; who's also 4 inches shorter

Drake batherson has elite 40 goal top line potential. Does Bratt have that?

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Drake Batherson's first full season of junior was at the age of 18-19 years old. He's a huge late bloomer. A year later he led the entire QMJHL in points in the playoffs--while being team Canada's best goal scorer at WJCs.

Year after that he was over PPG and unquestionable best player on his team in his first AHL season at 21(crazy if you think about it) and then arguably best player in AHL the year after that.

The year after THAT he on pace for 25 goals and 50 points in his first full season in NHL. Jesper Bratt, although very underrated and excellent player in his own right, does not have the steep progressive pedigree and development of Batherson; who's also 4 inches shorter

Drake batherson has elite 40 goal top line potential. Does Bratt have that?

lol come on now.

23 goals in 99 NHL games for a 23 year old is not '40 goal elite top line potential'

Christ.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

lol come on now.

23 goals in 99 NHL games for a 23 year old is not '40 goal elite top line potential'

Christ.

TDIL, you have weak reading comprehension. It's probably closer to 35 goals, but potential means ability to hit even once, which I can see for Drake if all things unfold accordingly.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Yegor Sharangovich just had 16 goals in 54 games in his first "full" season (and also had 17 goals in 34 games for Minsk in the KHL before this season)....

if a Devils fan said that Sharangovich had "elite 40 goal top line potential", I would laugh at them.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Yegor Sharangovich just had 16 goals in 54 games in his first "full" season (and also had 17 goals in 34 games for Minsk in the KHL before this season)....

if a Devils fan said that Sharangovich had "elite 40 goal top line potential", I would laugh at them.

That's nice.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I think one thing to consider is how reliant Batherson has been on the PP. It's not a bad thing to be dangerous on the PP, but that top unit in Ottawa was very good last year vs New Jersey.

At 5v5, Bratt is very obviously the better player, both in terms of productivity and possession.

In the last 3 years at 5v5:
Bratt vs Batherson
P/60 2.12 vs 1.31
GF% 49.72 vs 42.57
xGF% 51.01 vs 47.75

Never realized Devils fans were that high on Bratt. They had him 17h in their pool in 2017, which was really really weak.

Well he was a 6th round pick the year before, this was before he had made his NHL debut.

I have seen Bratt play plenty of times and always thought he was a nice little player but I'm going to track him a bit more next season since he is apparently a big piece to the Devils rebuild. I thought he was more on Connor Brown level.

Wow that couldn't be further from the truth. He is our going to be a top line winger for a long time.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

I think one thing to consider is how reliant Batherson has been on the PP. It's not a bad thing to be dangerous on the PP, but that top unit in Ottawa was very good last year vs New Jersey.

At 5v5, Bratt is very obviously the better player, both in terms of productivity and possession.

Meh, Batherson has played 99 NHL games, 130 games less than Bratt. This being his full first season and predominately used on the top line it's to be expected, and not surprising.

 

[trentmccleary]

Honestly this right here might be a top 5 most insane thing ever posted on this site.

There is absolutely, positively NO chance that that is true.

It doesn't take much to manipulate Corsi, some GM's have made their affinity for Corsi based stats clear and all a coach has to do is promote a game plan that involves taking as many shots as possible to 'increase the odds' of scoring. Players aren't stupid either. If they take a bunch of low percentage shots in their UFA seasons, they could be promoted by the advanced stats crew as a hidden gem ready to break out their possession dominance.

 

[TS Quint]

Drake Batherson's first full season of junior was at the age of 18-19 years old. Compare that to Stutzle who in the same breath just played a full season in the NHL. He's a huge late bloomer. A year later he led the entire QMJHL in points in the playoffs--while being team Canada's best goal scorer at WJCs.

Year after that he was over PPG and unquestionable best player on his team in his first AHL season at 21(crazy if you think about it) and then arguably best player in AHL the year after that.

The year after THAT he on pace for 25 goals and 50 points in his first full season in NHL. Jesper Bratt, although very underrated and excellent player in his own right, does not have the steep progressive pedigree and development of Batherson; who's also 4 inches shorter

Drake batherson has elite 40 goal top line potential. Does Bratt have that?

You had me nodding in agreement until that last comment. LMAO!

 

[AfroThunder396]

Bratt is quite clearly the better player, but he's a small European forward who plays for New Jersey while Batherson is a good old 6'3" North American kid who plays for a Canadian team so obviously he'll win the popularity contest.

 

[Benttheknee]

People are acting like because this is Batherson's first full year in the NHL that he has some kind of mythical ceiling of projection when he's already had nearly 150 games of pro experience. I'd say he's a lot closer to what he is than some of you would care to admit. You're using Bratt's ascension to the NHL much earlier against him when, as you noted, he made the jump from the Allsvenskan (tier-2 Sweden), all the way to the NHL at 19 as a 6th round pick and has been learning on the job on an unstable/poor team. Bratt's skills are much more projectable at this level and despite the continued efforts of Sens fans to use Bratt's production against him, he's a much better player than he was 180 NHL games ago. As the team solidifies around him, his production will rise with it, as it likely would have this year with a full training camp and better puck luck.

4 years ago, Bratt was in the NHL. 4 years ago, Batherson was getting established in the QMJHL. So in the last 4 years, Batherson has made a ton of progress, while Bratt has a bit of progress. Is there any reason Batherson went from Junior B player to NHLer in 5 years. Yes, her grew 5-6 inches at the age of 17.

This is why people think Batherson has a "mythical cieling"

 

[Xspyrit]

TDIL, you have weak reading comprehension. It's probably closer to 35 goals, but potential means ability to hit even once, which I can see for Drake if all things unfold accordingly.

Yeah 40 goals was a tad exagerated IMO. He's not a pure goal scorer, he's a playmaker first and foremost. Think about all the times he was trying too hard to set up his teammates for a perfect play (could have had many more points if his linemates had more finish early on). I see him more as a 25-30 goals and the assists he'll get will depend on who he plays with. Love his vision and skillset. If Chris F'in Tierney can have 39 assists in a season, Batherson absolutely can.

Wow that couldn't be further from the truth. He is our going to be a top line winger for a long time.

You might be relying on reputation here. First, let me tell you that Connor Brown is an awesome penalty killer. In so many PKs this season, he was actually generating more dangerous chances than the other team. Ok Bratt doesn't PK much, at least not yet. Connor Brown is a fantastic skater with a non-stop motor, flawless work ethic, very good defensively. Bratt has averaged 2:08 in PP TOI/GP since his rookie season, which is more than Brown (1:32). Connor really doesn't rely on PP to produce. Not saying that Bratt does but since 2019-20 : 70 EVP + SHP in 127 GP for Brown (0.55 PPG) vs 48 in 106 GP for Bratt (0.45 PPG)

Overall, Connor has a 0.29 G/GP and 0.61 PPG in Ottawa (translates to 24 goals/50 points per full season). Yes Bratt is younger but in his 4 NHL seasons, he has produced between 0.47 and 0.65 PPG, which gives me a good idea of his future production. Generally, after 231 NHL games you have a projectable idea about it. In some cases, you have a Zibanejad who explodes even more, or a Galchenyuk who regresses drastically. But these are more the exception and not the norm.

I have been called out repeatedly about this, but what do you guys expect out of Jesper Bratt? I mean, from all the posts on the subject from Devils fans, it seems pretty damn high.

I have said before that ~53 pts per season (let's say between 50 and 60 pts IF healthy) was a good expectation out of Bratt going forward but it has been called UTTERLY "nonsense" and UTTERLY "ridiculous"

Wut?

Devils
History of NHL trades by the New Jersey Devils - NHL Trade Tracker
Sens
History of NHL trades by the Ottawa Senators - NHL Trade Tracker

Compare both and notice what players the Devils had to trade away for picks.

Our drafting was crap through the 2000's and our star players were leaving for nothing or retiring after our 2012 stanley cup run. We then traded for Schneider in 2013 and he masked our terrible team by being one of the best goalies from 2013-2016. We also had the whole Kovalchuk contract penalty that forfeited one of our 1st round picks. Devils have rebuilt from nothing which would obviously take longer.

Now I believe some of the reason the poll is lopsided is because its a small market team against a big market team in a Big market Canadian division. I can guarantee most of the people who aren't fans of either team that voted have watched more Sens games then Devils games.(yes I know the Sens are the smallest market team in Canada but compared to the Devils they are definitely big market)

I really don't get why the whole Devils VS sens stuff came up anyway, We are the most similar teams in the NHL. Both living in the shadow of juggernaut original six teams, Always forgoten in on any sports shows or forum banter, and thought of as a horrible/crappy/boring place to live compared to the Big NHL teams.

Our fanbases really should have each others teams be our 2nd favourite to cheer for.

Yeah I know the Devils didn't have the same trade pieces as Ottawa. Normally, teams don't have the luxury to trade stars in their prime for their rebuild. That's because Ottawa rebuild is more contextual (Melnyk), it's not the norm and hence why it should be faster than usual.

I also figured that the Devils drafting was lacking somewhere looking at that 2017 pool.

That being said, Ottawa is far from a "big market team". It's geographically between Montreal, Toronto and New York. It's a small population city but there's also so many Habs+Leafs fans in the Ottawa area, which really doesn't help. But you also recognized Ottawa being the smallest market team in Canada so ok.

As for why this Sens vs Devils comparisons were brought up, I also have no idea. Thought it was pretty random. There's hoping that both teams are among the East powerhouses in the (near) future.

My 2nd and 3rd teams are Winnipeg and Vegas.

 

[Oneiro]

Batherson has about 100 GP. If you think he's going to keep shooting between 15-16%, you think he's going to be one of the best shooters in the league.

Fine if you want to believe that, but pretty easy to take the other side of that bet.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

You might be relying on reputation here. First, let me tell you that Connor Brown is an awesome penalty killer. In so many PKs this season, he was actually generating more dangerous chances than the other team. Ok Bratt doesn't PK much, at least not yet. Connor Brown is a fantastic skater with a non-stop motor, flawless work ethic, very good defensively. Bratt has averaged 2:08 in PP TOI/GP since his rookie season, which is more than Brown (1:32). Connor really doesn't rely on PP to produce. Not saying that Bratt does but since 2019-20 : 70 EVP + SHP in 127 GP for Brown (0.55 PPG) vs 48 in 106 GP for Bratt (0.45 PPG)

I like Brown a lot, been a big fan of his for some time. Ideal middle 6 winger, but he can't drive play and create like Bratt.

Overall, Connor has a 0.29 G/GP and 0.61 PPG in Ottawa (translates to 24 goals/50 points per full season). Yes Bratt is younger but in his 4 NHL seasons, he has produced between 0.47 and 0.65 PPG, which gives me a good idea of his future production. Generally, after 231 NHL games you have a projectable idea about it. In some cases, you have a Zibanejad who explodes even more, or a Galchenyuk who regresses drastically. But these are more the exception and not the norm.

That's a terrible way to project productivity. He's 15th among LW's in the last 3 years in terms of 5/5 p/60, so that should give you a good idea of where he should fall Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

I have been called out repeatedly about this, but what do you guys expect out of Jesper Bratt? I mean, from all the posts on the subject from Devils fans, it seems pretty damn high.

I have said before that ~53 pts per season (let's say between 50 and 60 pts IF healthy) was a good expectation out of Bratt going forward but it has been called UTTERLY "nonsense" and UTTERLY "ridiculous"

I mean, what in the heck?

Bratt projects as a 65-80 point winger if deployed properly, a legit top line LW.

 

[Xspyrit]

I like Brown a lot, been a big fan of his for some time. Ideal middle 6 winger, but he can't drive play and create like Bratt.



That's a terrible way to project productivity. He's 15th among LW's in the last 3 years in terms of 5/5 p/60, so that should give you a good idea of where he should fall Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick



Bratt projects as a 65-80 point winger if deployed properly, a legit top line LW.

wow ok really didn't realize all that. 65-80 pts forwards are pretty damn RARE, particularly at 5'10

Then it's definitely Bratt >> Batherson

But I don't know, I still feel Batherson will be the better player. Weird how it works.

Bookmarking this thread for sure.

Is there any source that has Bratt high among U-25 players or something?

 

[Agent Zub]

As a Sens fans I think Batherson might have tad higher offensive upside but Bratt is the better hockey player currently and does more to help his team win.

Upside is pretty close so I would go with Bratt. He reminds me of Daniel Alfredsson.

Sens fans, would you take a poor mans Jason Spezza or a poor mans Daniel Alfredsson?

 

[Agent Zub]

wow ok really didn't realize all that. 65-80 pts forwards are pretty damn RARE, particularly at 5'10

Then it's definitely Bratt >> Batherson

But I don't know, I still feel Batherson will be the better player. Weird how it works.

Bookmarking this thread for sure.

Is there any source that has Bratt high among U-25 players or something?

Idk, but he is definitely one of the most underrated players in the league.

 

[Blackjack]

Is there any source that has Bratt high among U-25 players or something?

Not that I’m aware of, sometimes you do see stuff like this though